Can you decline a SID?

Jim_R

Jim_R

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In the thread about the departure procedure for 8S1, a couple of people have made the offhand comment that "you can decline a SID".

Really?

I thought that what you could do is specify "no SIDS/STARs" in the flight plan comments, and that just meant you didn't have published procedures for them onboard, so if ATC chose to assign a departure or arrival procedure, they knew that they'd have to spell it out fix-by-fix, instead of just referring to the procedure title and letting you look it up.

How does one decline a SID? Maybe something like this?

ATC: "Cleared to so-and-so via blah blah blah..."

Pilot: "Mmmm, naaah, I don't like that one. Try again, but without the SID this time, please."

:confused: :dunno:
 
Jim_R said:
In the thread about the departure procedure for 8S1, a couple of people have made the offhand comment that "you can decline a SID".

Really?

I thought that what you could do is specify "no SIDS/STARs" in the flight plan comments, and that just meant you didn't have published procedures for them onboard, so if ATC chose to assign a departure or arrival procedure, they knew that they'd have to spell it out fix-by-fix, instead of just referring to the procedure title and letting you look it up.

How does one decline a SID? Maybe something like this?

ATC: "Cleared to so-and-so via blah blah blah..."

Pilot: "Mmmm, naaah, I don't like that one. Try again, but without the SID this time, please."

:confused: :dunno:
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You're pretty much spot on. If ATC needs you on the SID/STAR you're going to be issued the SID/STAR. Filing "no SIDS/STARs" in remarks just means it wont be issued in the condensed form of a SID or STAR, it'll be spelled out for you. Back when NOS published SIDs/STARs and IAPs in separate books filing "no SIDS/STARs" made sense. Now they're together, so what's the point?
 
You MUST decline a SID if you don't have at least a textual of it. I see nothing that says it's optional any more than any other ATC instruction. As pointed, declining it doesn't mean you're going to get a different clearance, just have it delivered in a more verbose fashion.

Of course, with some places, they issue a SID and then read you everything on it anyhow.
90% of the time I'm issued CAPITAL 8, they read me everything that could be omitted. I was immensely surprised last time when I was issued: CAPITAL 8 HANEY SQUAWK 0423. Usually I get a clearance that starts out with the SID but contains everything that you would have needed to fly without the SID in the clearance.
 
I always figured "No SIDS/STARS" was a remnant from a time when the paper chart books were separate and pilots didn't have them. I've seen a few folks say the decline them all the time but couldn't understand why someone would prefer to receive and write a complicated clearance long-hand rather than have a nice chart to follow.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I always figured "No SIDS/STARS" was a remnant from a time when the paper chart books were separate and pilots didn't have them.
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You figured right.
I've seen a few folks say the decline them all the time but couldn't understand why someone would prefer to receive and write a complicated clearance long-hand rather than have a nice chart to follow.
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It's because they are under the mistaken impression that if they say that, they'll be excused from flying the SID/STAR routing and will somehow get a free pass direct. I run into this all the time on instrument refresher training.
 
Of course you can decline a SID. Although as a result you may be declining the flight...
 
And often the whole Jazz of the SID is primarily to set up a lost comm scenario. You can always negotiate direct (especially once in comm/radar contact):

TWR: Navion 27K contact departure.
27K: 27K
(switch freq)
27K: Potomac Departure Navion 5327K 2000 climbing 4000.
PCT: Navion 5327K Potomac Departure radar contact.
27K: 27K Request Direct Flat Rock.
PCT: Cleared direct flat rock.
 
flyingron said:
And often the whole Jazz of the SID is primarily to set up a lost comm scenario. You can always negotiate direct (especially once in comm/radar contact):

TWR: Navion 27K contact departure.
27K: 27K
(switch freq)
27K: Potomac Departure Navion 5327K 2000 climbing 4000.
PCT: Navion 5327K Potomac Departure radar contact.
27K: 27K Request Direct Flat Rock.
PCT: Cleared direct flat rock.
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Not "always"; just maybe "usually".
 
flyingron said:
And often the whole Jazz of the SID is primarily to set up a lost comm scenario. You can always negotiate direct (especially once in comm/radar contact):

TWR: Navion 27K contact departure.
27K: 27K
(switch freq)
27K: Potomac Departure Navion 5327K 2000 climbing 4000.
PCT: Navion 5327K Potomac Departure radar contact.
27K: 27K Request Direct Flat Rock.
PCT: Cleared direct flat rock.
Click to expand...

Or if you're me lately you're flying along fat, dumb and happy with your direct clearance when you hear "73T advise ready to copy new clearence." 5 times in 1 trip. :mad2:
 
Z06_Mir said:
Or if you're me lately you're flying along fat, dumb and happy with your direct clearance when you hear "73T advise ready to copy new clearence." 5 times in 1 trip. :mad2:
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Or just as I have finished putting the last change into the G1000, they come back with a new clearance for the third time.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Or if you're me lately you're flying along fat, dumb and happy with your direct clearance when you hear "73T advise ready to copy new clearence." 5 times in 1 trip. :mad2:
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"OK, will advise."

(wait...)

"73T, are you ready to copy?"

"Not yet."

(keep waiting...)

"73T, are you ready to copy?"

"Still not ready."

:D
 
If the SID requires equipment you don't have installed, then you should decline it by saying "unable". In the case of the ODP at 8S1, the procedure is a RNAV one and if your GPS is a KLN94, it is not approved to fly a RNAV SID, STAR, or ODP.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Or if you're me lately you're flying along fat, dumb and happy with your direct clearance when you hear "73T advise ready to copy new clearence." 5 times in 1 trip. :mad2:
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Got this a couple times on a flight from MYF to OAK. once to reroute us the long way around LAX, and the other nearing OAK
 
EdFred said:
"Unable." :D

(squawk 7600).

"You can't win, Luke."
Click to expand...

§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
 
sferguson524 said:
Got this a couple times on a flight from MYF to OAK. once to reroute us the long way around LAX, and the other nearing OAK
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I'm not kidding, on the way home from KHND we got a minimum of five. I even got one that put me looking at the nose of a mountain near Prescott, AZ. :yikes: They took us over the HIGHEST TERRAIN IN THE AREA, and over the busiest VOR in the area (we could see at least 3 airplanes below us in the holding pattern waiting to slide on down the ILS, Embry Riddle base). Then when I was about to cancel and go at it alone (over the top of the bravo, since they hadn't gotten us down from 11) we finally got vectors home. Why did I want that instrument rating again? :lol: Oh yeah, to accept SIDs and STARs ;)
 
dell30rb said:
I remember the first time I was assigned a SID, out of RDU.

I figured I was in for some complicated BS departure from a flatland airport in my little 152. Anyway, I looked up the SID.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1303/00516RALEIGH.PDF
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Those "vector-only" SIDs, often named with just the name of the city, are pretty common. But notice that, since it's not a "route" you can't put it in a Duats flight plan or enter it in, for example, ForeFlight.
 
My favorite reroute was when I was doing my long instrument XC in training. I'd carefully picked out a route, showed it to the instructor, filed it. Calling for my clearance I got a very involved route that was nothing like I filed. Shortly after takeoff, they called and told me they had a reroute for me. Great, now what. I got my paper out and copied the route. Hey! This is what I filed to begin with.
 
John Collins said:
If the SID requires equipment you don't have installed, then you should decline it by saying "unable". In the case of the ODP at 8S1, the procedure is a RNAV one and if your GPS is a KLN94, it is not approved to fly a RNAV SID, STAR, or ODP.
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I don't think that's quite accurate. The ANGIL1 RNAV SID is only requiring lateral guidance from GPS not vertical. Therefore the KLN 94 is approved. The two GPS approaches at that same airport, the RNAV 18 and RNAV 36 are both LNAV only therefore the KLN 94 is approved for both of them. LNAV/VNAV or LPV or WAAS required procedures which are all procedures utilizing vertical GPS guidance would disallow the use of the KLN-94. The ANGIL1 departure requires your altimeter for altitude indication not GPS. If I'm off base can you explain where I would find clarification.
 
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if your spam can has the ability to perform the required climb gradients and the RNP then why would you not want to do a SID?
 
cirrusmx said:
if your spam can has the ability to perform the required climb gradients and the RNP then why would you not want to do a SID?
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In my case, the main reason is because it takes me 15 miles opposite the direction of my en-route. If weather were sufficiently poor, then the mileage out of the way may be worth it.
 
roncachamp said:
§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
Click to expand...

So are you saying that pilots are never to say "unable" unless it is an emergency? Because I've done the "unable" quite a few times in which it wasn't an emergency, and gotten secondary and able-to-comply-with instructions. No one wrote me up, or told me to call a number.
 
snoboy said:
I don't think that's quite accurate. The ANGIL1 RNAV SID is only requiring lateral guidance from GPS not vertical. Therefore the KLN 94 is approved. The two GPS approaches at that same airport, the RNAV 18 and RNAV 36 are both LNAV only therefore the KLN 94 is approved for both of them. LNAV/VNAV or LPV or WAAS required procedures which are all procedures utilizing vertical GPS guidance would disallow the use of the KLN-94. The ANGIL1 departure requires your altimeter for altitude indication not GPS. If I'm off base can you explain where I would find clarification.
Click to expand...

Well actually, what I said is quite accurate, but not to worry, this is not well understood by most pilots. The SID, ODP, and STAR procedures that have RNAV in the title are considered RNAV 1 procedures. AC 90-100A defines what RNAV capability is required to perform these procedures. This has nothing to do with approach capability or vertical navigation. I have attached the AC for your reference.

View attachment AC 90-100A U.S. Terminal and En Route Area Navigation (RNAV) Operations.pdf

The AC refers to a spreadsheet that the FAA maintains that lists anufacturers and GPS equipment along with the approval status of the equipment to fly these procedures. I can't attach it to this post, but you can download it at the following location:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...fs/afs400/afs470/media/AC90-100compliance.xls

The KLN94 and most GPS units of its vintage are not approved because they do not support the ARINC 424 CF leg terminator in the database which is a requirement for approval to fly these RNAV procedures. As a result, these procedures are not coded in the KLN94 database. You have to be able to load the procedure from the database in order to fly it. Also, you may not be aware of it, the KLN94 is not authorized to substitute for a VOR, although it is authorized to substitute for a ADF or DME. That tidbit is also in the compliance document.
 
If an ODP or SID has not been assigned by ATC, so that the pilot of a non-commercial flight has the option of making up his own departure procedure, couldn't the pilot "make up" a procedure that just happened to follow the same route as the ODP or SID, using a GPS that is not on the list?
 
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EdFred said:
So are you saying that pilots are never to say "unable" unless it is an emergency? Because I've done the "unable" quite a few times in which it wasn't an emergency, and gotten secondary and able-to-comply-with instructions. No one wrote me up, or told me to call a number.
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I'm saying you're not going to avoid a reroute by being a d!ckhead, and responding to a vector issued after engaging in d!ckhead behavior with "unable", followed by changing your beacon code to NORDO, is gonna get you a well-deserved suspension.
 
Palmpilot said:
If an ODP or SID has not been assigned by ATC, so that the pilot of a non-commercial flight has the option of making up his own departure procedure,
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Huh? You just lost me. Why would the issuance of a clearance without a SID let the pilot "make up" his own departure procedure (except, I guess, during the part of the departure that is in uncontrolled airspace)?

In terms of ODP, it does not have to be assigned for the pilot to use it, although the better practice is to inform ATC that you will be using it, so that they don't expect something else. So there's no reason to make something up that looks like the SID. Yo just use the SID.
 
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roncachamp said:
I'm saying you're not going to avoid a reroute by being a d!ckhead, and responding to a vector issued after engaging in d!ckhead behavior with "unable", followed by changing your beacon code to NORDO, is gonna get you a well-deserved suspension.
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I took the 'squak 7600, you can't win Luke' post as a joke.
 
Palmpilot said:
If an ODP or SID has not been assigned by ATC, so that the pilot of a non-commercial flight has the option of making up his own departure procedure, couldn't the pilot "make up" a procedure that just happened to follow the same route as the ODP or SID, using a GPS that is not on the list?
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You are not permitted to fly a published RNAV route without "suitable RNAV equipment." Of course, under Part 91, you can make up your own ODP to get from the runway to the MEA, so you. can do any darn thing you please -- up to the MEA. However, SID's are for ATC purposes, not obstacle clearance, so once you reach the MEA, you must fly the route you were given, not a SID you feel like flying
 
Ron Levy said:
You are not permitted to fly a published RNAV route without "suitable RNAV equipment." Of course, under Part 91, you can make up your own ODP to get from the runway to the MEA, so you. can do any darn thing you please -- up to the MEA. However, SID's are for ATC purposes, not obstacle clearance, so once you reach the MEA, you must fly the route you were given, not a SID you feel like flying
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Although I agree with much of that, SIDs can very well be for obstacle clearance in addition to ATC requirements.
 
Ron Levy said:
"73T, I have a phone number for you to call when you land..."
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"Say again for 73T. We're NORDO over here." :lol:

Oh wait :mad2::mad2:


I told my pilot buddy on our night flight (as we're threading airspaces in the Phoenix area....) that my goal was never to get a phone number or be featured in an NTSB report.
 
roncachamp said:
§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
Click to expand...



But the engine is running just a teensy bit rough
 
John Collins said:
Well actually, what I said is quite accurate, but not to worry, this is not well understood by most pilots. The SID, ODP, and STAR procedures that have RNAV in the title are considered RNAV 1 procedures. AC 90-100A defines what RNAV capability is required to perform these procedures. This has nothing to do with approach capability or vertical navigation. I have attached the AC for your reference.

View attachment 29383

The AC refers to a spreadsheet that the FAA maintains that lists anufacturers and GPS equipment along with the approval status of the equipment to fly these procedures. I can't attach it to this post, but you can download it at the following location:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...fs/afs400/afs470/media/AC90-100compliance.xls

The KLN94 and most GPS units of its vintage are not approved because they do not support the ARINC 424 CF leg terminator in the database which is a requirement for approval to fly these RNAV procedures. As a result, these procedures are not coded in the KLN94 database. You have to be able to load the procedure from the database in order to fly it. Also, you may not be aware of it, the KLN94 is not authorized to substitute for a VOR, although it is authorized to substitute for a ADF or DME. That tidbit is also in the compliance document.
Click to expand...

Got it. That's right it must be a loaded procedure and the RNAV DPs aren't in the Data base. Good stuff to remember cause my club's fleet is loaded with KLN 94s. We are going to switch to the Garmin 650s in the future. Thanks
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Huh? You just lost me. Why would the issuance of a clearance without a SID let the pilot "make up" his own departure procedure (except, I guess, during the part of the departure that is in uncontrolled airspace)?
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This has been covered in previous threads. Others can probably explain it better, but I'll take a stab at it. The requirement to fly an ODP or an ATC-assigned DP is in 14 CFR 91.175(f)(3). Note that the beginning of paragraph (f) states "This paragraph applies to persons operating an aircraft under part 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter." No mention of Part 91.

AIM 5-2-8 says that Part 91 pilots are "strongly encouraged" to file and fly a DP, but that is not synonymous with "are required to."

By the way, the same AIM paragraph says that "ATC clearance must be received prior to flying a SID," so I was mistaken to include SIDs in my statement.
 
John Collins said:
...if your GPS is a KLN94, it is not approved to fly a RNAV SID, STAR, or ODP.
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That's odd. Our KLN-89b has sids and stars in it. I'll double check our paperwork, but I am unaware of any restriction on flying these procedures.

ETA: I see what you mean looking at that spreadsheet. Still, it's odd that sids and stars show up in the database.

Of course our Cardinal also has a KNS-80 IFR approved RNAV, so perhaps we're ok to use that.
 
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