Can you decline a SID?

They don't have to ask if you can maintain your own obstacle clearance, you're expected to do that. All they have to do is issue an altitude not lower than the minimum IFR altitude.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought they asked you that when you try to pick up a clearance in the air when you're below the MVA. If you answer yes, then they will give you a clearance with an "upon reaching xxx altitude" instruction, and you're IFR immediately but you're on your own as far as obstacle clearance until you reach xxx altitude.

What is the difference here?
 
Do you mean this clearance?


Yes, there's something not legal. IMC at 600 AGL with an IFR clearance that is not in effect until reaching 3000 MSL.

But, don't you normally obtain a clearance from the departure airport to some point (i.e. reaching 3000 msl), and then cleared as filed?
 
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought they asked you that when you try to pick up a clearance in the air when you're below the MVA. If you answer yes, then they will give you a clearance with an "upon reaching xxx altitude" instruction, and you're IFR immediately but you're on your own as far as obstacle clearance until you reach xxx altitude.

What is the difference here?

The book sez:
When a VFR aircraft, operating below the
minimum altitude for IFR operations, requests an IFR
clearance and you are aware that the pilot is unable to
climb in VFR conditions to the minimum IFR
altitude:

1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is
able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance
during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.

NOTE−
Pilots of pop−up aircraft are responsible for terrain and
obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument
altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot
compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC
instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA;
therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance
that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.

EXAMPLE−
“November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your
own terrain and obstruction clearance between your
present altitude and six thousand feet?”


2. If the pilot is able to maintain terrain and
obstruction separation, issue the appropriate clearance
as prescribed in para 4−2−1, Clearance Items,
and para 4−5−6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.

3. If unable to maintain terrain and obstruction
separation, instruct the pilot to maintain VFR and to
state intentions.

4. If appropriate, apply the provisions of
para 10−2−7, VFR Aircraft In Weather Difficulty, or
para 10−2−9, Radar Assistance Techniques, as
necessary.

The difference is we're talking about a departure from an airport, this applies to airborne aircraft.
 
So if there is an ODP available and you are part 91. Why wouldn't you use it?

One scenario where you shouldn't use an ODP is when it specifies a climb gradient that you can't meet. And if you can't come up with a routing that is safe given your aircraft's climb performance, then you'll need to wait for better weather.
 
"Upon reaching 3000 feet, cleared as filed. Time now 2100. Clearance void at 2110."

Ceiling 600? 601 to 3,000 becomes problemmatic.

I've never gotten a clearance like that. I've always been cleared to destination via x routing, climb and maintain y thousand feet, including at non-IFR airports. In those situations, I've always evaluated the obstacle environment before takeoff, and taken whatever steps were needed to provide a good safety margin in getting to the MEA.
 
All of the foregoing discussion boils down to this

  • If an airport has a control tower or an IAP, controlled airspace starts at the surface and extends upward to the overlying controlled airspace
  • If an airport does not have either a tower or an IAP, controlled airspace begins at 700 ft or 1200 ft or as designated above the surface of the airport (could be as high as 14500)
  • ATC does not control uncontrolled airspace nor will they issue a clearance for an aircraft to operate while in uncontrolled airspace (exception being the initial issuance of a clearance with the clearance limit being an airport that is located in uncontrolled airspace. The clearance limit will be modified as the aircraft nears the airport)
  • If the controlled airspace begins at the surface, then either a diverse departure procedure has been found satisfactory or an obstacle departure procedure or a SID has been established which provides a method for the aircraft to safely reach his assigned IFR altitude.
  • During this takeoff and departure phase, even though operating under an issued IFR clearance, IT IS THE PILOT’S RESPOBSIBILITY TO AVOID TERRIAN AND OBSTACLES until he has reached the MOCA or MEA.
  • Once the aircraft has reached the minimum IFR altitude, which provides terrain and obstacle clearance, ATC will assume responsibility for obstruction clearance for the remainder of the IFR flight.

If there is an ODP and you choose not to use it, you had better be sure that you know what you are doing!
 
Yep Mike said it correctly. We've got like two different conversations going. One of an airborne clearance and below the MIA. I've picked up a thousand of those. As Steven said the controller will ask if you can maintain your own obstruction terrain clearance until reaching XXX alt (MIA). Although that's only after the pilot has already said they can't maintain VFR until the MIA. From my experience most controllers will still ask the question even if I didn't mention about maintaining VFR in the climb. Maybe they think since I'm calling below the MIA it's assumed that I can't. It's probably just out of habit though.

The other question on departing a non controlled airport. I've never heard of giving the clearance until reaching the MIA. It's a given that the pilot is responsible for it in the climb, with or without a ODP. I issued a bunch of clearances for an uncontrolled airport (73J). It goes something like this:
Pilot: "Mooney 12345 like to pick up my IFR off 73J."
Controller: "OK which runway you plan on using and how long to get airborne?"
Pilot: "Runway 6 and off in ten."
Controller: "OK Mooney 12345 is cleared to XXX as filed, upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading 060, climb and maintain 2,000, expect 6,000 10 minutes after departure, departure control freq 125.6, sqk 4501. Clearance void if not off by 1710Z, if not off by 1710Z advice NBC approach no later than 1740Z and advise of your intentions. Time now 1700Z."
After his readback we would usually tell them that the're released. Sometimes it was IFR, sometimes VFR. It's easier to depart VFR and pick it up in the air but whatever, it's their perogative. Only drawback for ATC is that the airport is shutdown for IFR during those 10 minutes.
 
One scenario where you shouldn't use an ODP is when it specifies a climb gradient that you can't meet. And if you can't come up with a routing that is safe given your aircraft's climb performance, then you'll need to wait for better weather.

First and foremost, unlike SIDs, ODPs are required to follow the least demanding obstacle clearance route. Nonetheless, that still often requires a climb gradient.

A policy change this past December requires a visual climb over airport (VCOA) where the ODP has a climb gradient. Major airports are excepted from the VCOA requirement because ODPs are never used at those airports.
 
Sure you can decline a DP (SID), but there is little reason not to do it. In general, DPs are not as complicated as the graphical presentation makes them out to be. Just read the text description (usually only a sentence or two).

As far as ODPs, if you see a "T" in the briefing portion of the approach chart, you are responsible for reviewing the take-off minima and ODPs and for follwing those procedures as appropriate. These are not assigned by ATC, but it is expected that you will review and adhere to these when departing the airport.

Where does it state that I am expected to adhere to an airport's ODP?

I am not speaking of good judgment; rather regulatory requirements.
 
If an airport has a control tower or an IAP, controlled airspace starts at the surface and extends upward to the overlying controlled airspace

Having an IAP requires controlled airspace at 700 AGL. A surface area requires weather observations and communications with ATC, either direct or through a rapid relay such as FSS, down to the runway surface.

ATC does not control uncontrolled airspace nor will they issue a clearance for an aircraft to operate while in uncontrolled airspace (exception being the initial issuance of a clearance with the clearance limit being an airport that is located in uncontrolled airspace. The clearance limit will be modified as the aircraft nears the airport)

ATC regularly issues clearances to and from airports without surface areas, no modification of the clearance limit is required.

If the controlled airspace begins at the surface, then either a diverse departure procedure has been found satisfactory or an obstacle departure procedure or a SID has been established which provides a method for the aircraft to safely reach his assigned IFR altitude.

That is true of airports with IAPs, doesn't matter if there is a surface area.

Once the aircraft has reached the minimum IFR altitude, which provides terrain and obstacle clearance, ATC will assume responsibility for obstruction clearance for the remainder of the IFR flight.

Until an approach clearance is issued.
 
Okay, so forget about ASKING if the pilot can maintain obstacle clearance, I get that that happens only when picking up the clearance while airborne. (That's kind of what I thought too, but was wondering if it might apply to departures from airports as well.) I'm really asking about something like this:

The other question on departing a non controlled airport. I've never heard of giving the clearance until reaching the MIA. It's a given that the pilot is responsible for it in the climb, with or without a ODP. I issued a bunch of clearances for an uncontrolled airport (73J). It goes something like this:
Pilot: "Mooney 12345 like to pick up my IFR off 73J."
Controller: "OK which runway you plan on using and how long to get airborne?"
Pilot: "Runway 6 and off in ten."
Controller: "OK Mooney 12345 is cleared to XXX as filed, upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading 060, climb and maintain 2,000, expect 6,000 10 minutes after departure, departure control freq 125.6, sqk 4501. Clearance void if not off by 1710Z, if not off by 1710Z advice NBC approach no later than 1740Z and advise of your intentions. Time now 1700Z."
That's typical when the departure airport is uncontrolled. It's the standard way to depart IFR from my home field, and I've done it a few times. But my home field is an IFR airport, it has two published IAPs, and ODPs for departing in either direction. What I'm gleaning here from Steven and Bruce is that this kind of clearance isn't given for departing from a non-IFR airport, and in that case, the pilot must be able to climb VFR to the MIA. Yet Richard says:
I've always been cleared to destination via x routing, climb and maintain y thousand feet, including at non-IFR airports.
So... color me confused. :confused:
 
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That's typical when the departure airport is uncontrolled. It's the standard way to depart IFR from my home field, and I've done it a few times. But my home field is an IFR airport, it has two published IAPs, and ODPs for departing in either direction. What I'm gleaning here from Steven and Bruce is that this kind of clearance isn't given for departing from a non-IFR airport, and in that case, the pilot must be able to climb VFR to the MIA.

You're not gleaning that from me. I've issued many clearances to aircraft at fields without IAPs. I can't remember any of them being other than cleared as filed.
 
If Richard is departing from a class G, with no SID or ODP there's nothing wrong with that clearance. There is no requirement to affect the IFR portion until reaching the MIA. As I said we gave clearances all the time from a class G (73j) airport with the phraseology "upon entering controlled airspace." In lower Alabama Cairns approach issues clearances over the freq to EDN 8 miles away with the same phraseology. It might be CAF or a FRC but they always put in the "Upon entering controlled airspace" verbiage. The pilot should already know but until you hear radar contact, it's on them to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance in the climb to the MIA. You put them on a heading so they enter the controlled airspace away from other traffic or any airspace you don't want them to penetrate.

If you're getting a clearance in the air you might very well hear "expect your IFR after leaving XXX ft." if that's the case it's generally not because terrain or obstructions, it's because he has local IFR traffic he needs to top before issuing a clearance. He can't say "Can you maintain your own terrain, obstruction, and traffic clearance with your ADS-B/TIS until reaching XXX ft?" if you don't have visual, you gotta wait until generally 3 miles or 1,000 ft.
 
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If Richard is departing from a class G, with no SID or ODP there's nothing wrong with that clearance.

Who's Richard? What clearance?

There is no requirement to affect the IFR portion until reaching the MIA.

True. But if the clearance is issued such that it is not in effect until reaching the MIA and it's IMC below the MIA it's a clearance that can't be flown.

As I said we gave clearances all the time from a class G (73j) airport with the phraseology "upon entering controlled airspace." In lower Alabama Cairns approach issues clearances over the freq to EDN 8 miles away with the same phraseology. It might be CAF or a FRC but they always put in the "Upon entering controlled airspace" verbiage.

Why?

The pilot should already know but until you hear radar contact, it's on them to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance in the climb to the MIA.

"Radar contact" does not transfer responsibility for terrain and obstruction clearance from the pilot to ATC. You can be in radar contact and still be too low to be vectored.
 
Who's Richard? What clearance?



True. But if the clearance is issued such that it is not in effect until reaching the MIA and it's IMC below the MIA it's a clearance that can't be flown.



Why?



"Radar contact" does not transfer responsibility for terrain and obstruction clearance from the pilot to ATC. You can be in radar contact and still be too low to be vectored.

Palm pilot. Nothing wrong with getting a clearance off an uncontrolled field without a stipulation of starting the IFR portion at a certain altitude. The clearance starts on the ground.

I didn't say to issue a clearance on the ground that begins at a point where he has to climb IMC while VFR to reach that altitude. Yes, that would be an impossible clearance to follow.

Why "upon entering controlled airspace fly heading XXX."? It was our policy letter. Reading "stuck mic" it appears it's standard practice in a lot of other ATC facilities as well. It allows the aircraft to enter controlled airspace in a predictable manner to get radar ID, without violating other airspace or traffic. It was also standard phraseology that's taught in the Instrument Examiner Course in the Army. Although I think they use the phrase "When entering controlled airspace."

Correct. I didn't want to say radar contact releases the pilot from their responsibility for terrain obstruction responsibility in all cases. However when applying vectors below minimum altitude in 5-6-3 the controller has some responsibility in the matter. In which case you'd have to have radar ID to excercise those rules.
 
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So if there is an ODP available and you are part 91. Why wouldn't you use it?

I just thought of another scenario where you wouldn't use the ODP, and that is where it requires equipment that you don't have. For example, until last year, WVI had an ODP that required an ADF (or equipment that could be substituted, such as an IFR GPS). Since there are no significant obstacles between the airport and the Pacific Ocean, any climb on a heading that resembled southwest would have ensured obstacle clearance. (The new ODP uses SNS VOR, so it''s not an issue anymore.)

http://skyvector.com/?ll=36.935722222,-121.789638889&chart=301&zoom=3

An ODP that still requires RNAV equipment is O22. However, if you're not RNAV-equipped, a glance at the sectional shows that again, any heading resembling southwest will take you away from cumulo granitus.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=38.030416667,-120.414555556&chart=301&zoom=3

Of course, if you're in a valley that is hemmed in by mountains on all sides, coming up with a safe departure plan may or may not be possible.
 
I just thought of another scenario where you wouldn't use the ODP, and that is where it requires equipment that you don't have. For example, until last year, WVI had an ODP that required an ADF (or equipment that could be substituted, such as an IFR GPS). Since there are no significant obstacles between the airport and the Pacific Ocean, any climb on a heading that resembled southwest would have ensured obstacle clearance. (The new ODP uses SNS VOR, so it''s not an issue anymore.)

http://skyvector.com/?ll=36.935722222,-121.789638889&chart=301&zoom=3

An ODP that still requires RNAV equipment is O22. However, if you're not RNAV-equipped, a glance at the sectional shows that again, any heading resembling southwest will take you away from cumulo granitus.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=38.030416667,-120.414555556&chart=301&zoom=3

Of course, if you're in a valley that is hemmed in by mountains on all sides, coming up with a safe departure plan may or may not be possible.

Good example. Using any large body of water might not be a bad idea as long as you know what's between the field and the water.
 
Palm pilot. Nothing wrong with getting a clearance off an uncontrolled field without a stipulation of starting the IFR portion at a certain altitude. The clearance starts on the ground.

I didn't say to issue a clearance on the ground that begins at a point where he has to climb IMC while VFR to reach that altitude. Yes, that would be an impossible clearance to follow.

What does it mean to start the IFR portion at a certain altitude if the clearance starts on the ground?

Why "upon entering controlled airspace fly heading XXX."? It was our policy letter. Reading "stuck mic" it appears it's standard practice in a lot of other ATC facilities as well. It allows the aircraft to enter controlled airspace in a predictable manner to get radar ID, without violating other airspace or traffic. It was also standard phraseology that's taught in the Instrument Examiner Course in the Army. Although I think they use the phrase "When entering controlled airspace."

I don't see it. You can't assign direction of takeoff or turns after takeoff so you can't predict where the aircraft will enter controlled airspace. You can predict what heading the aircraft will be on or turning to when it does enter controlled airspace, but that's all.

I avoid violating other traffic in this situation by issuing the lowest cardinal altitude above the MIA to the departing aircraft while keeping overflying traffic at least 1000 feet above that altitude.
 
I don't see it. You can't assign direction of takeoff or turns after takeoff so you can't predict where the aircraft will enter controlled airspace.
Why not? I was taught to always tell CD my departure runway when calling up from an uncontrolled field. If the pilot doesn't tell you, why couldn't you ask them? At least here, the expectation is that you fly the ODP and then turn to enter controlled airspace (700 AGL) on the assigned heading.
 
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What does it mean to start the IFR portion at a certain altitude if the clearance starts on the ground?



I don't see it. You can't assign direction of takeoff or turns after takeoff so you can't predict where the aircraft will enter controlled airspace. You can predict what heading the aircraft will be on or turning to when it does enter controlled airspace, but that's all.

I avoid violating other traffic in this situation by issuing the lowest cardinal altitude above the MIA to the departing aircraft while keeping overflying traffic at least 1000 feet above that altitude.

I don't understand what your asking in Palmpilots situation. Go back and read where he said he's never gotten a clearance like that. I'm simply agreeing with him. I don't know of any facility that issues a clearance on the ground with the IFR starting at a certain altitude because of MIA issues. You can fly in the soup all day long off a class G airport with no ODP or SID on your way to the MIA.

As far as "upon entering controlled airspace"? I don't know what to tell you Steven. The .65 4-3-2 is quite clear to specifiy the initial heading/azimuth is to be applied once entering controlled airpace. It uses "When entering controlled airspace, fly heading..." As i said this is the phraseology that was taught in the Instrument examiner course. It's a common phraseology that used for issuing a clearance off a class G airport. You can do a search for that phraseology and find several aviation websites that discuss it. Go to the ATC website Stuck Mic and you'll see half a dozen controllers all saying they use that verbaige as well.

At my facility (NBC) we used it as a matter of policy to protect airspace and traffic. If you look at ARW, it's right on the class D of the air station. Say some guy is cleared off of rwy 7 to a destination to the NW. Without a departure heading restriction he's going to hit 400 agl and turn on course right through the class D. Most likely he'll get a face full of F-18 as well. Hence the reason we issued a heading once entering controlled airspace.
 
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Why not? I was taught to always tell CD my departure runway when calling up from an uncontrolled field. If the pilot doesn't tell you, why couldn't you ask them? At least here, the expectation is that you fly the ODP and then turn to enter controlled airspace (700 AGL) on the assigned heading.

Sure, you can ask, but you can't assign it.
 
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