bnt83
Final Approach
So you're saying that since there is nothing in CAR 3, 91.205, or the TCDS requiring the electrical system of an electric flap 172 to be working, you can fly one without it?
This is like aking as if the landing gear had to work
Can I remove the speaker from my cessna?
- Thread starter Todd Copeland
- Start date
This is like aking as if the landing gear had to work
flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
Sure it is. 03.353 Wing flap controls. .
bnt83
Final Approach
What does the ACO or a DER look at to determine the answer to all our questions?
dell30rb
Final Approach
I had a failure where the headset system in the airplane was not working, but the speaker worked fine. Good thing too because I was at a towered airport. I had a handheld with me but I somehow misplaced the headset adapter cables, so the speaker was my only option.
No... Not your only option.... you could have waited for the Green / Red light gun signal...
Tom-D
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Actually boys and girls, the requirement is in the radio installation instructions. It will not be in either the type certificate or the production certificate because you could have ordered the aircraft with either Narco or Arc or King equipment installed.
So if he wants to dump the speaker it is allowed as a minor change.
I'd say Ron got it more right than anyone.
So if he wants to dump the speaker it is allowed as a minor change.
I'd say Ron got it more right than anyone.
dell30rb
Final Approach
No... Not your only option.... you could have waited for the Green / Red light gun signal...
Plan B was to call them on the handheld and ask for light signals plus work out my departure in advance. I had filed IFR too which complicated things but the weather was okay so I cancelled it in case I had more communications trouble.
flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
And do you have any copies of this? My guess is no, they were done at the factory the way the airplane was certified. That is if it is still factory radio...
THat is pretty much what we have been saying Tom.
Tom is probably correct here... The biggest challange would be the "proper and legal" way to remove the speaker feed from the radio /audio panel... Do you just terminate the feed at the old speaker location ?, Do you have to remove the entire wire from the panel to the speaker location ? Do you have to add a dummy load in the speaker output line from the radio ? ...... And on and on....
Several guys have hit on the most obvious.. Why do it in the first place
.. The speaker weighs what 1.5 lbs ???? Geez, just eat one less Mc Donalds lunch,,, Wear lighter shoes or clothes, Take the AOPA AFD out of the flightbag...
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Be sure to have a new W&B done, might as well get credit for the weight removed, even if it is small.
bnt83
Final Approach
Tom is probably correct here... The biggest challange would be the "proper and legal" way to remove the speaker feed from the radio /audio panel... Do you just terminate the feed at the old speaker location ?, Do you have to remove the entire wire from the panel to the speaker location ? Do you have to add a dummy load in the speaker output line from the radio ? ...... And on and on....
Several guys have hit on the most obvious.. Why do it in the first place
Simple.
Cap & Stow the wires, revise the W&B and the Equipment List, Swing the compass and update the correction card, placard near the Audio Panel that a speaker is not installed and complete the log entry.
Edit: and turn the speaker switch to the off posision.
There may or may not be settings in the audio panel which disable the speaker amplifier like a dip switch. So consulting the Install Manual would be wise.
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bnt83
Final Approach
Flyingmoose and I were giving them a paper trail to regulatory requirements to determine major vs minor alteration...
He already has an A&P saying it can't be done so the OP needs to be able to explain why it can be. Not a simple quote from a forum saying the radio requirements are inthe install manual an hence it's minor.
Step 1 in this determination, find out if the FAA required it to be the way it is.
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bnt83
Final Approach
I agree with you a 100%, but we are debating legallity in this instance. Can it be done? Yep easy.
Me being very hard of hearing, cannot hear well from the speaker in flight, so it's near useless. Although I probably could slow the engine RPM to a point where I could hear it.
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I agree with you a 100%, but we are debating legallity in this instance. Can it be done? Yep easy.
Me being very hard of hearing, cannot hear well from the speaker in flight, so it's near useless. Although I probably could slow the engine RPM to a point where I could hear it.
Don't feel bad.... I have pretty good hearing and I can barely hear the speaker in any GA plane..
bnt83
Final Approach
Don't feel bad.... I have pretty good hearing and I can barely hear the speaker in any GA plane..
I'd say a good 85% of pilot population has this experience.
Old radios with weak amplifiers, ancient speaker technology and a noisy environment = communication between men & women
docmirror
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I don't have the regulatory answer but here's how I would do it. The Cessna's of that vintage could by ordered without radios, or 'radio delete'. This was done sometimes for foreign markets. Now, the radios are gone, the speaker could still be ordered installed and the wires stubbed, or it could be a speaker delete too.
To convince the A&P, remove all radios which have an audible output(incl nav, ADF, etc). Remove the speaker, remove the headset jacks. Fill out a 337 like we do for a radio swap - "all radios and trays with audible source removed from SN xxxxxx, speaker and headset removed from aircraft. aircraft weighted and balanced and a new W&B computed." Then, go back and put what ever radios you want in, and install the headset jacks and not the speaker and fill out the 337 just like a radio install - "Installed tray and radio blah blah IAW blah blah installation instructions, and installed headset jacks in panel to audio source(s). Compute new W&B."
No reason to have a speaker in a plane which now has no audio devices. Then, go back and install what you want on the 337 just as you did before. Now, you're under the stipulations of the radio install document. If it requires a speaker(doubt it), then you put a speaker in, if it doesn't, then don't.
To convince the A&P, remove all radios which have an audible output(incl nav, ADF, etc). Remove the speaker, remove the headset jacks. Fill out a 337 like we do for a radio swap - "all radios and trays with audible source removed from SN xxxxxx, speaker and headset removed from aircraft. aircraft weighted and balanced and a new W&B computed." Then, go back and put what ever radios you want in, and install the headset jacks and not the speaker and fill out the 337 just like a radio install - "Installed tray and radio blah blah IAW blah blah installation instructions, and installed headset jacks in panel to audio source(s). Compute new W&B."
No reason to have a speaker in a plane which now has no audio devices. Then, go back and install what you want on the 337 just as you did before. Now, you're under the stipulations of the radio install document. If it requires a speaker(doubt it), then you put a speaker in, if it doesn't, then don't.
bnt83
Final Approach
337 is not required for minor alterations or minor repairs. It's bad practice issuing them when not required and could even be considered abuse of a government document.
Okay, now that we've got that all sorted out - how about the hand mike?
Oh Geez........
Witmo
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Tim
Step 1 is to find an A&P with a clue and dump the yahoo he has.
bnt83
Final Approach
Okay, now that we've got that all sorted out - how about the hand mike?
Gone. And the fire extinguisher.
bnt83
Final Approach
The reason the inspector goes after your Equipment List is it's often outdated and they can get you for it.
If you take equipment out, it has to be updated with the weight & balance.
<as the imspector reviews your Equipment List during rap check>
Fire Extinguisher- in the airplane but past hydro date (busted)
or
Missing but still on the Equipment List
or
One installed but not on the Equipment List
Baggage nets - missing
Hand mike - check
Hey where did that radio come from?
Where did the intercom come from?
Where is the 337 for the baggage fuel tank?
Unrealated to the Equipment List:
Show me the approved flight manual supplements for the autopilot and the GNC-530W....
If you take equipment out, it has to be updated with the weight & balance.
<as the imspector reviews your Equipment List during rap check>
Fire Extinguisher- in the airplane but past hydro date (busted)
or
Missing but still on the Equipment List
or
One installed but not on the Equipment List
Baggage nets - missing
Hand mike - check
Hey where did that radio come from?
Where did the intercom come from?
Where is the 337 for the baggage fuel tank?
Unrealated to the Equipment List:
Show me the approved flight manual supplements for the autopilot and the GNC-530W....
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Tom-D
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Any radio replacement will be done according to the radio installations, any modification to the Airframe will be approved on a 337 field approval or a STC. The addition of radio with out modification of the airframe will be done as a log book entry, simply because the airframe was designed to except the installation.
and the W&B and equipment list up dated by the installer.
to remove the speaker after that is a simple log book entry stating that the speaker was removed, to comply with the alternate use in the radio installation procedure.
Simplicity is too complex for most people to understand.
Tom-D
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bnt83
Final Approach
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Tom-D
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The Cessna 172 type certificate
http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/263a36336effbcd38625738a004bbe52/$FILE/3A12.pdf
Each model of the design has its own application by serial number but it is all the same certificate, The early ones do not have a MEL, they simply have a equipment list as delivered from the factory, and operate on the placards as directed in the POH. W&B is calculated each time there is reason to do so. and only the empty weight is entered in the weight and balance section of the POH, so the pilot can use that figure to calculate that flights CG. and max gross.
removing a speaker will be a weight change of less than a pound at Datum, (0 arm) and CG will not need to be recalculated.
http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/263a36336effbcd38625738a004bbe52/$FILE/3A12.pdf
Each model of the design has its own application by serial number but it is all the same certificate, The early ones do not have a MEL, they simply have a equipment list as delivered from the factory, and operate on the placards as directed in the POH. W&B is calculated each time there is reason to do so. and only the empty weight is entered in the weight and balance section of the POH, so the pilot can use that figure to calculate that flights CG. and max gross.
removing a speaker will be a weight change of less than a pound at Datum, (0 arm) and CG will not need to be recalculated.
Tom-D
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Then you should kick your A&P ass if it is not correct.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
When my headset failed while landing at a towered airport, in a plane that had an inop speaker, I found out that the speaker wasn't dead weight!
bnt83
Final Approach
They get lost along the way... Many folks just have the Owner's Manual on board and get a suprise when ramp checked.
How many aircraft have you come across where the weight & balance and Equipment List is all jacked up?
Todd Copeland
Pre-takeoff checklist
That's why I built a glastar and am building a glasair 3. This cessna is really for my dad as he is older and low time it is an excellent plane for him.
Tom-D
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Owners that stupid shouldn't fly.
I have a very small client list, and their W&B and equipments lists are in order, isn't that the purpose of the annual and airworthiness check each year? When you sign off an annual aren't you saying the aircraft is airworthy? doesn't all the AROW stuff have to be there?
Plus it is the owners responsibility to maintain their aircraft's airworthiness. They get hit on a ramp check, and it isn't right they deserve what the get.
Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
Baggage nets???
First item on my pre-flight check-list - ARROW (we have radio licenses in our club planes). I have grounded a plane more than once when the binder with W&B information wasn't on board. Hasn't happened recently.