Todd Copeland
Pre-takeoff checklist
I have a 1973 cessna 172. I want to remove the speaker when I re-do the avionics this summer and my A&E says it must stay as it was there as original equipment! This can't be true, can it?
Todd
Todd
Can I remove the speaker from my cessna?
- Thread starter Todd Copeland
- Start date
flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
While it was original equipment, the question is...Is it required equipment? You will need to consult the TCDS and from there it will give you certification data, I believe its CAR3. You can see if its even mentioned. If not you should be able to pull it out.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Is it listed on the TCDS? If so, how is it listed, IOW is it listed as optional?
Edit- looks like Moose beat me to it.
Edit- looks like Moose beat me to it.
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Todd Copeland
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just dead weight.
Todd Copeland
Pre-takeoff checklist
Where do I find this? I can't imagine it's required equipment. I could legally fly it without a radio or transponder in certain airspace. Why would a speaker that isn't used be required in the age of headsets?
bnt83
Final Approach
poadeleted20
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Because that aircraft was built before the age of headsets, and the rules were different then. However, since "standard equipment" in airplanes built in those days didn't include radios at all, I don't see how the speaker could be an R-item.
As to the TCDS, it probably doesn't include a complete equipment list. If it's not in the owner's manual, you'd have to ask either the FAA Aircraft Certification Office in Wichita or Cessna to determine whether that speaker was included in the Required equipment for that aircraft when it was certified. Personally, I doubt it, but that's only a guess.
Also, since you refer to your mechanic as an "A&E," I'm guessing you're older than I am. :wink2: But I think what you should do first is ask your A&P what makes him think the speaker is an R-item, and to consult his PMI at the FSDO for guidance on that.
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Todd Copeland
Pre-takeoff checklist
Alright, I might be an idiot here but with this search I'm not seeing equipment lists. I googled it several ways and I am not finding required equipment lists.
flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
Ok you will not find equipment listed in theTCDS like you think. Refer to my first post..... in the tcds you will see a note that says data pertinent to all models. "Certification basis"
Certification Basis Models
172 through 172P
Part 3 of the Civil Air Regulations effective November 1, 1949, as amended
by 3-1 through 3-12. In addition, effective S/N 17271035 and on, FAR 23.1559
effective March 1, 1978. FAR 36 dated December 1, 1969, plus Amendments 36-1
through 36-5 for Model 172N; FAR 36 dated December 1, 1969, plus
Amendments 36-1 through 36-12 for Model 172P through 172Q. In addition,
effective S/N 17276260 and on, FAR 23.1545(a), Amendment 23-23 dated
December 1, 1978.172 through 172P
Part 3 of the Civil Air Regulations effective November 1, 1949, as amended
by 3-1 through 3-12. In addition, effective S/N 17271035 and on, FAR 23.1559
effective March 1, 1978. FAR 36 dated December 1, 1969, plus Amendments 36-1
through 36-5 for Model 172N; FAR 36 dated December 1, 1969, plus
Amendments 36-1 through 36-12 for Model 172P through 172Q. In addition,
effective S/N 17276260 and on, FAR 23.1545(a), Amendment 23-23 dated
I think you have an M model. So this tell you that they used CAR3 to certify your aircraft. You will need to do some digging through there to see. I bet its not in there, but if it is then you can start asking more questions from there.
Geico266
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All this for a speaker? 
poadeleted20
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There has to be, as part of the certification documents, but it's not in the TCDS or (I'm guessing) the 1973 owner's manual. As I said, if you really want to know, you'll have to ask Cessna or the ACO.
bnt83
Final Approach
Your equipment list should be in the airplane. This list is a working document, not definitive list of stuff that must be in the airplane by law that can never be removed or modified. That's were the equipment list revision comes into play.
The list of equipment required in you're airplane will be found in FAR 91 subpart C http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...b&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr91_main_02.tpl
and any additional requirements will be found within the CAR (and possibly FAR) regulations that are listed on the Cessna 172M TCDS.
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bnt83
Final Approach
Show me a Cessna 172 that has an aural warning system as found in bizjets (which was required for certification).
The speaker is optional in the 172, just like the radios are to begin with.
That all being said, I won't pull the speaker. You will need a compass accuracy check afterwards, and the next owner of the airplane may want the speaker anyway.
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livitup
Pre-takeoff checklist
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livitup
Let me Google that for you only works when the Google results include the information the OP was asking for.
MEL is airplane specific, not required for a SEL unless used in 135 operations, and would be on file with the FAA, if it existed, which is doubtful.
A MMEL (Master Minimum Equipment List) is a template for a type of aircraft, and is used when creating a MEL for a specific plane. If Cessna ever published it for the 172, I can't find it. They exist on Cessna's website for the turbines, but not for the pistons.
The TCDS will list any mandatory requirements, such as placards that must be present, and operating parameters, but not an equipment list.
Newer Cessna POH indicate what equipment is required for flight; older ones do not. As suggested earlier, it might be best to contact Cessna.
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
It is called the world of 'certified' airplanes!All this for a speaker?
bnt83
Final Approach
Let me Google that for you only works when the Google results include the information the OP was asking for.
MEL is airplane specific, not required for a SEL unless used in 135 operations, and would be on file with the FAA, if it existed, which is doubtful.
A MMEL is a template for a type of aircraft, and is used when creating a MEL for a specific plane. Again, not required for piston airplanes, so probably never developed by Cessa.
The TCDS will list any mandatory requirements, such as placards that must be present, and operating parameters.
Newer Cessna POH indicate what equipment is required for flight; older ones do not. As suggested earlier, it might be best to contact Cessna.
The OP needed a TCDS, i gave him one.
Cessna POH IS NOT A REGULATORY DOCUMENT, hence has NO weight in the discussion.
MEL is a completely different topic, have no idea why you would bring that up.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Fearless Tower
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Well, I must admit, this is interesting.....the TCDS for my 1948 Cessna 170 is very specific and has an equipment list that lists required and optional STC items for engine accessories, wheels, brakes, interior equipment....etc.
The TCDS for the Cessna 172 does not include anything of the sort.
bnt83
Final Approach
That TCDS has STC stuff listed on it? Are you sure?
poadeleted20
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Any 172 you can find should have the aural stall warning system which was required under its certification. Beyond that, I have no idea of the relevance of what is required in bizjets certified under Part 25 to a light single certified under CAR 3.
I know that, and you know that. But the question is whether one can find the documents to prove it.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Okay, now my memory is clearing up.....I now recall seeing the equipment lists in the 172 POH, whereas in the earlier days of the 170, they put that stuff in the TCDS - there is no equipment list in the 170 AFM (only 2 pages) or Owners Manual.
bnt83
Final Approach
Um NOOOO. The 172M is a pnuematic stall warning system. Even the electric ones have a separete speaker for the stall system.
flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
It was the first one at the top.Let me Google that for you only works when the Google results include the information the OP was asking for.
< <<< So why would it matter what a 135 has to comply with? Is also company specific per the ops manual. Im sure that doesn't apply either.
Even if you could find one for his aircraft, you cant use it. Unless its 'Approved" for your use.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Seriously, this thread hurts my head. I'll stick with my experimentals. If I want to remove a speaker ( there would never have been one in the first place) I can. Maybe do a new W&B, enter the deed in airframe log, done.
A speaker? Really?
poadeleted20
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The TCDS won't help the OP.
The POH issued with all Cessnas from 1978 on is indeed a regulatory document, serving as the AFM required by Part 21 and regulated by Part 23, and it contains the equipment list for those aircraft. However, the Owner's Manual for a 1973 172 is not, and does not contain the equipment list the OP needs to prove to the mechanic that the speaker is not an R-item.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Cessna 170? Yes, it does. Doesn't include every available STC, but several are indeed listed on the current TCDS.
The 170 TCDS looks very different from that of the 172.
bnt83
Final Approach
Research into CAR 3 stuff is beyond boring...
http://ntl1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_cars
http://ntl1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_cars
flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
Let me guess... You would rather have an experimental? No kiddin. I didn't see that one coming.
Seriously, this thread hurts my head. I'll stick with my experimentals. If I want to remove a speaker ( there would never have been one in the first place) I can. Maybe do a new W&B, enter the deed in airframe log, done.
A speaker? Really?
The op wanted an anwer to a question. Nobody will argue that this is a lot of garbage to deal with.
livitup
Pre-takeoff checklist
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livitup
I don't know why either...
He needs the TCDS, which refers to CAR3. I understand what CAR3 is, but I can't find the text of it online anywhere... even with my ninja Google-fu.
Basically, Cessna called out some placards, Prop/Engine requirements, and acrobatic limitations in the TCDS, and then for everything else, said "refer to CAR3". Is this right?
flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
yes it does. It references you to the certication basis so you can look there.
bnt83
Final Approach
I can't think of an example, but say you have an open cockpit airplane with radios in it, what good is the speaker? Why would it be FAA REQUIRED in the 172M?
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
What does the pneumatic part have to do with it? FWIW, the early 172s (and the 170B model) are not pneumatic - they are lifting vane stall warning devices and are required equipment.
Not quite sure what point you are trying to make? Unless we misunderstood you, it sounded like you were claiming that Cessnas did not have an aural warning systems required for certification, which does not seem correct.
bnt83
Final Approach
I don't know why either...
He needs the TCDS, which refers to CAR3. I understand what CAR3 is, but I can't find the text of it online anywhere... even with my ninja Google-fu.
Basically, Cessna called out some placards, Prop/Engine requirements, and acrobatic limitations in the TCDS, and then for everything else, said "refer to CAR3". Is this right?
The TCDS covers how the airplane was certificated and the very basic equipment required to do so, but does not always include everything. FAR part 91 also applies.
Edite: The TCDS says what the FAA required for certification. Above statement isn't very clear.
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bnt83
Final Approach
Disregaurd. I was pointing out an aural warning system that uses the radio speaker... No such thing on the 172M or any of the earlier ones.
BTW, you know that deaf pilots are not required to hear the stall system?
poadeleted20
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We already know it's CAR3. Problem is, it doesn't list the equipment included in the original certification beyond that required by CAR 3 -- only way to get that is to ask the ACO or Cessna.
poadeleted20
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Still not all-inclusive. For example, the electrical system is required on all electric flap 172's, but you won't find that in CAR 3, the TCDS, or 91.205.
Again, I'm as sure as I can be that the speaker is not an R-item, but proving it to the OP's mechanic with documents is another story, and will require information not in CAR 3, the TCDS, 91.205, or the Owner's Manual.
bnt83
Final Approach
Why would the FAA require anything beyond it's own rules? Cessna is not the FAA. The Owners manual is not a regulatory document to consider when performing this alteration.
So the FAA required 1, 2, 3, 4 to get certified. 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 is optional...
poadeleted20
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So you're saying that since there is nothing in CAR 3, 91.205, or the TCDS requiring the electrical system of an electric flap 172 to be working, you can fly one without it? 