Can I log as Instructor?

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I fly on both the military & civilian sides and am currently going through an instructor upgrade through the military. I hold an ATP & my civilian CFII license has lapsed many many moons ago and is no longer valid. I attempt to log all my time (mil & non mil) per the FAR/CFRs so anyone who picks up my logbooks will have no questions. The question: Can I log instructor time if I am instructing a true student (who is not the instructor), teach the student, fly the sortie as the instructor, debrief the student while my instructor who is also flying is essentially just a seeing eye dog. The aircraft only have one seat, the student & instructor are my wingmen flying as other positions within the formation. I even write the students grade sheet as I am his instructor of record & sign as his official instructor. Or is this a cut-n-dry case of just log dual received? Thx
 
Unregistered said:
I fly on both the military & civilian sides and am currently going through an instructor upgrade through the military. I hold an ATP & my civilian CFII license has lapsed many many moons ago and is no longer valid. I attempt to log all my time (mil & non mil) per the FAR/CFRs so anyone who picks up my logbooks will have no questions. The question: Can I log instructor time if I am instructing a true student (who is not the instructor), teach the student, fly the sortie as the instructor, debrief the student while my instructor who is also flying is essentially just a seeing eye dog. The aircraft only have one seat, the student & instructor are my wingmen flying as other positions within the formation. I even write the students grade sheet as I am his instructor of record & sign as his official instructor. Or is this a cut-n-dry case of just log dual received? Thx
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If this is for instrument instruction, it would fail the requirement in 91.109(a) for dual controls or throwover yoke.
 
There's no such thing as instructor time (by that name or any other) in Part 61.

Most instructors probably log instructor time whenever the student logs training received time. The proper question is then, can the student log the time as flight training received under 61.51? Flight training time can only be logged when conducted by an authorized instructor. Are you can authorized instructor as defined by 61.1?
 
Unregistered said:
Can I log instructor time if I am instructing a true student (who is not the instructor), teach the student, fly the sortie as the instructor, debrief the student while my instructor who is also flying is essentially just a seeing eye dog. The aircraft only have one seat, the student & instructor are my wingmen flying as other positions within the formation. I even write the students grade sheet as I am his instructor of record & sign as his official instructor. Or is this a cut-n-dry case of just log dual received? Thx
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Expired CFI ticket aside, for FAA logging purposes, you can't receive flight instruction if the instructor is not on board the aircraft with the student.
 
ON the civilian side of things NO ONE in this scenario logs any instruction given, nor any instruction received. Also on the civilian side until you have your CFI ticket back, you can never log instruction given.
 
Thanks Ed. I'll just leave it be.

dmspilot: Yes, the student is logging instruction received/"dual" received as he/she is not qualified to fly certain profiles, employ in certain matters, etc unless being instructed by an instructor (which in this case would be me, who then qualifies them for different "maneuvers").

Rotordude: only one seat in this aircraft, although we can instruct instruments.

With there not being a definitive consensus, and to keep my books pure, I'll just leave it be and just log the standard stuff as not an instructor. Much appreciated guys. In time I won't have this question.

I guess logging "instructor time" is a bigger deal for us as it qualifies us for different jobs/positions within our small community. Much appreciated again.
 
Unregistered said:
I guess logging "instructor time" is a bigger deal for us as it qualifies us for different jobs/positions within our small community. Much appreciated again.
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That's true in the civilian world also. Places offering instructor positions will naturally want to know about your experience giving instruction. And even the FAA wants to know when one is applying to be a DPE. And, it is, of course a basis for logging PIC.

So people do log instructor time as such even if it is not a tracked requirement generally. But it is still pretty limited for those purposes to a FAA-authorized instructor giving the type of instruction authorized by his or her certificate.
 
In this case, you may be instructing / demonstrating, but it seems you're more of a check pilot, making sure that the pilot-training is performing a certain maneuver correctly. I agree with the above comments regarding instruction requiring that you be in the aircraft with the pilot-training. In civil aviation, a CFI isn't giving instruction while watching his student solo. I think that basic principle would also apply here. If you want to reinstate your CFII, just fill out an 8710 and schedule a checkride with a DPE.
 
SbestCFII: I guess it's just a different world. We'll give about 1-2 hours of ground instruction the day prior, about an hour pre-brief prior to the actual flight, go fly a 0.8 to 1.7 while instructing via the radio, then debrief upwards of many hours on that 0.8 hour flight. During the flight, if the student doesn't do it right then we continue to practice and hone their skills. Just like trying to teach a lazy-8 in a C150, we'll continue to practice or tell them in a different way until they get it. So, I'm not watching him solo...it's just different as I was brought up in the civilian world of flying. I do find it extremely hard to associate that with a check pilot. We do have "check pilots", but zero instruction is given on those flights/check rides and you must demonstrate to someone (in the other jet) who says absolutely nothing until you are done debriefing the flight. That guy is just "watching you" and watching you very closely for the smallest error.

& I'll just mil-comp the CFII instead of spending more $ on a DPE / aircraft/ fuel when I'll eventually have the mil-qualification, and just need to take the comp test at a testing facility.

Midlifeflyer: yeah, I guess you're right, I didn't consider those situations.

Much appreciated on all the input fellas, I'm out.
 
MikeELP said:
Ron who?? ;)

Question was asked and answered without pages of gibberish. :D
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Poster: [Question]
Correct answer 1. []
Correct answer 2. []
Correct answer 3. []
Correct answer from Ron []
Correct answer 4.
Poster: Thanks Ron!​

Been going on here for decades. Some folks just need a guru. Get used to it.
 
SbestCFII said:
In this case, you may be instructing / demonstrating, but it seems you're more of a check pilot, making sure that the pilot-training is performing a certain maneuver correctly. I agree with the above comments regarding instruction requiring that you be in the aircraft with the pilot-training. In civil aviation, a CFI isn't giving instruction while watching his student solo. I think that basic principle would also apply here. If you want to reinstate your CFII, just fill out an 8710 and schedule a checkride with a DPE.
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Hmmm....I think I recall paying for it. Man, don't tell me my CFI was a cheat.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Hmmm....I think I recall paying for it. Man, don't tell me my CFI was a cheat.
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Whether he was a cheat depends. What was he doing while you were soloing? My students paid for their supervised solos when I was on the ground with a radio or in the Tower (and they knew I would be there for that purposes), watching and listening. Not for other solos, though.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Poster: [Question]
Correct answer 1. []
Correct answer 2. []
Correct answer 3. []
Correct answer from Ron []
Correct answer 4.
Poster: Thanks Ron!​
Been going on here for decades. Some folks just need a guru. Get used to it.
Click to expand...

Yea, I know Mark. :D

Lots of people think that the more verbose the answer (an throw in an "on point" or "quid pro quo") it made the answer more authoritative.

I kinda like the lower signal to noise ratio now. ;)
 
EdFred said:
He was! I didn't pay for my CFI when I was soloing, nor did I charge when my students were.
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Kinda the same here, Ed...on first solo, I charge the student for the three laps around the pattern. After they kicked me out and they're on their own (even though I was there) I never charged a student for solo time even if I was there "supervising".

That said, I wouldn't say the CFI was "cheating" for charging the student for the time he was there. My private instructor didn't do it...I don't do it, but that's not to say everyone has to do it the same way.

Just sayin' :dunno:
 
Oh, I don't even charge for the time when they do their initial solo. Then again, I'm not instructing for money, the last couple flight reviews I've done, I haven't taken any money at all.
 
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