Can a single engine piston pilot fly and land a supersonic jet fighter with no training?

Living in Steamboat Springs in the winters, I got to know Robin Olds. Skied with him a few times and drank a “few”. I asked him once wether he preferred the P-38 or P-51. Definitely the Mustang but even more, his Crew Chief.

Every year there’s a toast by a group of Fighter Pilots (and a few civilians) to Robin with Jeremiah Weed up on the mountain.

Cheers
 
I'm obviously a defender of what I do, but I'd argue that the USAF does the specialization thing much better. And doing that is how you get really good at your mission. I think there are people on the USN/USMC side that can do it just as well, but id be willing to bet that the percentage is lower. Can we nut a fleet defense DCA? Yeah, probably better than most CAF dudes. Do we have the collective training to really match our dark blue brothers in a night one OCA sweep? Probably on the element level, but no way do we have the large force literacy that is built during Red Flag [or insert any number of other annual exercises], or at the weapons officer level, the knowledge of other MDS that is built during WIC. I don't think that is because we spend too much time learning to land on an aircraft carrier. Those required training resources are really not that vast, and they are getting even smaller as technology improves (think "magic carpet"). We simply have too many mission sets to focus on one exceptionally well, and our cultural mentality is that we train to smaller scale building blocks with the assumption that if we are good at that, we can "do it live" when things get real in an actual major combat operation.
 
35 AoA said:
I'm obviously a defender of what I do, but I'd argue that the USAF does the specialization thing much better. And doing that is how you get really good at your mission. I think there are people on the USN/USMC side that can do it just as well, but id be willing to bet that the percentage is lower. Can we nut a fleet defense DCA? Yeah, probably better than most CAF dudes. Do we have the collective training to really match our dark blue brothers in a night one OCA sweep? Probably on the element level, but no way do we have the large force literacy that is built during Red Flag [or insert any number of other annual exercises], or at the weapons officer level, the knowledge of other MDS that is built during WIC. I don't think that is because we spend too much time learning to land on an aircraft carrier. Those required training resources are really not that vast, and they are getting even smaller as technology improves (think "magic carpet"). We simply have too many mission sets to focus on one exceptionally well, and our cultural mentality is that we train to smaller scale building blocks with the assumption that if we are good at that, we can "do it live" when things get real in an actual major combat operation.
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I think the only way to really prove this is to give me a few trips around the pattern in one of your birds after some of your training. You know, for evaluation purposes only. I'm a CFI and all and the MU-2 is world renowned as the most impossible aircraft to fly, so I'm qualified. ;)

{yes I'm joking for those who don't understand what I call a sense of humor}
 
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EvilEagle said:
As I always tell people at airshows: "Keys are in it brother..." :D
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I've made the same comment before. Funny thing, the MU-2 is the first multi-engine plane I've flown that actually required a key to turn it on (the key is the master).

I would imagine that starting any of the fighters, much like starting the MU-2, is going to be challenging for those who don't know the proper hand waving technique or how to stand on your head.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've made the same comment before. Funny thing, the MU-2 is the first multi-engine plane I've flown that actually required a key to turn it on (the key is the master).

I would imagine that starting any of the fighters, much like starting the MU-2, is going to be challenging for those who don't know the proper hand waving technique or how to stand on your head.
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For an Eagle, don't you have to face Seattle or St. Louis to get it to start?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I think the only way to really prove this is to give me a few trips around the pattern in one of your birds after some of your training. You know, for evaluation purposes only. I'm a CFI and all and the MU-2 is world renowned as the most impossible aircraft to fly, so I'm qualified. ;)

{yes I'm joking for those who don't understand what I call a sense of humor}
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So you’re not really a CFI?
 
SkyDog58 said:
So you’re not really a CFI?
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According to the FAA, I was serious about CFI. Even CFII/MEI.

Now, whether or not I'm any good at any of those is another question entirely, and I'll leave that for my students to tell you. They'll post as soon as they're done at their respective therapists, discussing the trauma of flying with me.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I think the only way to really prove this is to give me a few trips around the pattern in one of your birds after some of your training.
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When people tell me how boring engineering is and how we're all cube rats I just smile and glance at my logbook ;)

Nauga,
fortunately
 
nauga said:
When people tell me how boring engineering is and how we're all cube rats I just smile and glance at my logbook ;)
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I've never had (nor actively sought out) the test pilot opportunity. But that said, I haven't found my engineering career boring thus far. The fact that it's been in aviation has helped, and other than the stint at the meatball my roles have generally kept me pretty hands on.

The time at the meatball was interesting because it was mentally challenging and I learned a great deal about turbine engines, but not nearly as hands on.
 
EvilEagle said:
Flying them is easy, employing them and using it as a weapon is a whole different ballgame.
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Exactly.

I haven’t flown the real thing, but a friend who is a former USMC Hornet pilot got me into the sims at Oceana before he retired.

The Super Hornet was one of the easiest airplanes to fly. It does everything for you. But that was the whole point: reduce the pilot’s flying workload so they can focus on the tactical employment.

It would probably take a few months of training to understand and effectively use the weapon systems on that airplane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It would probably take a few months of training to understand and effectively use the weapon systems on that airplane.
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Likely much much longer. I felt I had a good grasp of effectively employing the Eagle after about 6years as an instructor pilot (so 9years total). I’m at 17 years of flying it now and I’m still learning.
 
EvilEagle said:
Likely much much longer. I felt I had a good grasp of effectively employing the Eagle after about 6years as an instructor pilot (so 9years total). I’m at 17 years of flying it now and I’m still learning.
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Good point!
 
EvilEagle said:
Likely much much longer. I felt I had a good grasp of effectively employing the Eagle after about 6years as an instructor pilot (so 9years total). I’m at 17 years of flying it now and I’m still learning.
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This. I think for a guy to get to his real first level of competency (at least in my community) takes the better part of 4 years in the jet....and that's just the beginning of quals, and of understanding the higher level stuff.
 
Man, I don’t know about Eagles or Hornets or Vipers. Can’t speak on that. The closest I have in my logbook is my T-38 time. I’d say if a single-engine piston private pilot, with no training whatsoever, managed to be able to start a T-38 (I’ll assume the ground crew is there and willing to turn on the air). I’d say chances are that they would not be able to safely takeoff and land without killing themselves.
 
EvilEagle said:
Hope not, McGuire is not on the standard list of places to go in an F-15. :)
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It's been a few years since I've been there, but I thought for sure I saw eagles at the show. Or maybe that was at Wings over Pittsburgh.
Oh well, guess I'll have to get keys to another bird :).

Hey, on another note, do you ever fly into JFK? My son took a video last week of a few Eagles flying over our house (not far from the airport). They had just departed and we're moving!
He didn't know what they were, but after zooming into the video, I could tell they were F-15s.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Man, I don’t know about Eagles or Hornets or Vipers. Can’t speak on that. The closest I have in my logbook is my T-38 time. I’d say if a single-engine piston private pilot, with no training whatsoever, managed to be able to start a T-38 (I’ll assume the ground crew is there and willing to turn on the air). I’d say chances are that they would not be able to safely takeoff and land without killing themselves.
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I agree.
As much as I enjoy flight simulators and would like to think I'd at least have a fighting chance, I know for a fact that I would have probably killed myself in that Cessna Skyhawk, twenty years ago, had I not had an instructor in the right seat. Definitely would have in the Decathlon when I took tailwheel training several years later!

Similar to my profession when new electricians come to train as Systems Controllers (upon applying for the position). Some of the young guys think they don't need much training because they've been wiring houses for years. Then they get there and are exposed to 3-phase high-tension switchgear, transformers, motors, etc and the moment we lose potential on one of our six_13KV feeders and they have to manually re-feed buses with tie-breakers that are configured in a tic-tac-toe configuration, bells and alarms sounding, they're like a dear in headlights. :D

The last three trainees we've had, all crashed and burned on the practical (after three months of training) and were given an extra month. Three months is the normal time frame.

We have this new 25 year old kid, who actually had the audacity to tell me and my supervisor..."I don't need no midterm, just give me the test now". This was after two weeks of training, when the supervisor informed him of his upcoming midterm exam.
The two of us looked at each other in utter disbelief.

Well, his three months were up last week. Now he gets to train an extra month, lol.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I didn’t have too much trouble catching a wire in the Hornet, but the E-2C sim was a whole ‘nother story. It was bolter after bolter.
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I've got more than a handful of hours in various sims of various Hornets (o_O) and at one point could fly a reasonable pass *in the sim*. As good as they make 'em, there's still a world of difference between an OFT and reality and a reason pilots spend hours in the bounce pattern before going to the boat.

Nauga,
FUAW
 
redtail said:
It's been a few years since I've been there, but I thought for sure I saw eagles at the show. Or maybe that was at Wings over Pittsburgh.
Oh well, guess I'll have to get keys to another bird :).

Hey, on another note, do you ever fly into JFK? My son took a video last week of a few Eagles flying over our house (not far from the airport). They had just departed and we're moving!
He didn't know what they were, but after zooming into the video, I could tell they were F-15s.
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They might get some Eagles or Strike Eagles at their airshow. Maybe Barnes C models or SJ Strikes.

I've never flown an Eagle into JFK. I know some guys that landed at LGA after doing a flyby for either baseball or hockey. I wouldn't want to get stuck in that afternoon JFK departure congo line - we'd be out of gas before we got to takeoff!

Standard climb out for us is 350 kias, looks really fast when it's a smaller jet and 100 knots faster than all the other traffic around! If they will allow us, I always ask for an unrestricted climb when departing major airfields. Usually not too much traffic directly overhead at 15k' - helps get us out of their way also. Some places like it, some don't. I can't see it working at JFK though, too busy and all the arrivals from the west go basically over LGA then over JFK out over the water for a descent then swing back in.
 
EvilEagle said:
They might get some Eagles or Strike Eagles at their airshow. Maybe Barnes C models or SJ Strikes.

I've never flown an Eagle into JFK. I know some guys that landed at LGA after doing a flyby for either baseball or hockey. I wouldn't want to get stuck in that afternoon JFK departure congo line - we'd be out of gas before we got to takeoff!

Standard climb out for us is 350 kias, looks really fast when it's a smaller jet and 100 knots faster than all the other traffic around! If they will allow us, I always ask for an unrestricted climb when departing major airfields. Usually not too much traffic directly overhead at 15k' - helps get us out of their way also. Some places like it, some don't. I can't see it working at JFK though, too busy and all the arrivals from the west go basically over LGA then over JFK out over the water for a descent then swing back in.
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Yeah we live Northeast of JFK's runway 22L/R approach path, so we get to see some pretty cool aircraft. Occasionally we get military in the area, which is always a treat to see overhead. That's one of the things I miss about working at EWR and LGA (never worked at JFK), my daily exposure to a large variety of aircraft, which included the occasional military and foreign planes.

Several I saw for the first time at work, then later at airshows.

Thanks
 
I believe, given the right set of circumstances, a half way competent PP would be able to fly and land a fighter or for that matter an airliner. Given the right tools, airworthy aircraft, plenty of fuel and someone to instruct over the radio and most importantly, TIME.

Disconnecting the auto pilot and hand flying an aircraft a bit, being told the “NUMBERS”, should lighten the load. Getting familiar with handling and absent any other emergency’s, I think it’s doable.

The landing may not be pretty, but you will probably walk away from it. And you know what they say....
 
C-1 PILOT said:
The landing may not be pretty, but you will probably walk away from it. And you know what they say....
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The EE Lightning discussed in the original post had a landing speed of about 150mph (there are none now flying after the closure of Thunder City in South Africa). If it's not quite pretty you probably won't walk away from it.

The Engineer who inadvertently took to the air (sadly now deceased at a fine age) certainly did not think it was so easy.

"Some years after the incident, my hidden fears of high speed flight came to the surface and I had to spend two periods in hospital. I had not come to terms with the emotional side of the event. To return to my wife and family after five close encounters with death, was indeed a miraculous experience, but I had not been honest with myself, to accept it as such, so I needed psychiatric help"
 
Again, aerodynamics is aerodynamics. I believe, given the parameters in my post it is possible. I’ve flown a couple full motion sims. I had an issue in the 747, but survived the encounter. In the air was a breeze, as we all know, it’s that controlled crash we need to conquer.
 
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