Can a single engine piston pilot fly and land a supersonic jet fighter with no training?

Cooter said:
I don’t dispute the 3-wire but I doubt the OK part. The three wire is just the target wire, usually. The target is actually selected before each recovery and can be adjusted to account for conditions. It’s possible to get an OK-2, OK-4, or even an OK-1 wire.
To fly an OK pass, you have to show up on glide path, on-speed, and with the proper ROD. That has to be maintained with only minor deviations and adjustments all the way to touchdown. It only takes one momentary deviation from any of those three to get downgraded to a fair pass. Unless you can fool paddles, >2kt, >100vsi or greater than 1 ball deviation at any point throughout the pass will probably result in a Fair.
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RDO???
 
EvilEagle said:
There goes the Navy - always talking about landing.... tactics? eh! Landings man! Landings!

:D
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And the AF wants to talk/debrief everything else ad nauseum.
“Ok guys, how was everyone’s hook maneuvers today?”:frown2:
 
luvflyin said:
RDO???
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RDOs mostly look at magazines and hope no one lands gear up, I’ve done my share of it.
LSOs are the ones who do the grading and de-briefs.
 
image.jpeg image.jpeg I don't know how I'd do in the real thing, but for a couple of months now, I've been having a blast flying and learning the Hornet (in VR with my Oculus Rift)! :)
The biggest challenge is seeing the ball. The resolution in VR is just too low at the moment, so I'm doing more bolsters and crashes than traps, lol. Having better luck with the ICLS case 3 recoveries though.
 
EvilEagle said:
Too true!

(Hook maneuver - I think that's what old navy guys call the G-strain right?)
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I think I meant hook technique, but yes the Navy calls it G-hook or G-strain. Whatever it’s called, I don’t do it to the AF’s satisfaction.
 
Cooter said:
RDOs mostly look at magazines and hope no one lands gear up, I’ve done my share of it.
LSOs are the ones who do the grading and de-briefs.
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oops. What I meant to ??? was ROD. "To fly an OK pass, you have to show up on glide path, on-speed, and with the proper ROD." or is RDO what you meant?
 
luvflyin said:
oops. What I meant to ??? was ROD. "To fly an OK pass, you have to show up on glide path, on-speed, and with the proper ROD." or is RDO what you meant?
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Oh, Rate-of-Descent, sorry. Too many acronyms. RDO is runway duty officer.
A change in vertical speed is very obvious to the LSOs, so the changes need to be small.
 
Cooter said:
I think I meant hook technique, but yes the Navy calls it G-hook or G-strain. Whatever it’s called, I don’t do it to the AF’s satisfaction.
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I knew what you meant (thus the green color). I don't think anyone does it to the AF's satisfaction... 18.5 years of flying high G jets; if I haven't learned it yet I probably ain't gonna.
 
But this wasn’t any single engine prop pilot. He was a tail wheel pilot!
 
jsstevens said:
But this wasn’t any single engine prop pilot. He was a tail wheel pilot!
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True, although they cited that him landing it like a taildragger was what caused the issue.

As far as I'm concerned he did a damn fine job.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
True, although they cited that him landing it like a taildragger was what caused the issue.

As far as I'm concerned he did a damn fine job.
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Unbelievable job! I agree. I've got ~40 hours of F-5 sim time and landing that, even on an 11,000 foot runway could be a challenge. The Lighting would be way faster. And no canopy would be, shall we say, distracting.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Holy cow, 20,000ft/min climb rate? Wow! Brake release to 36,000ft in under three minutes....
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Loved watching F15s from the 33rd when they’d do a FCF after an engine change. Liftoff, nose over, and accelerate down the runway, then straight up vertically to 21K, roll, level off inverted, and then roll upright. Had a great view from the tower.
 
Cooter said:
I think I meant hook technique, but yes the Navy calls it G-hook or G-strain. Whatever it’s called, I don’t do it to the AF’s satisfaction.
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The magical USAF-speak word is "AGSM", or anti-G straining maneuver.
 
luvflyin said:
C’mon now. Given the ‘airports’ they had to land on ya gotta give em a break for gettin kinda prideful in landings.
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The problem is in that they're "fighter pilots", not "landing pilots". It is the *fighting* part that matters.
 
luvflyin said:
Are they generally less skilled in air to air combat than AF?
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Generalizations are usually partially right, but are always partially wrong. So, I’ll probably draw fire for this. But, when you break it down by community, I would say that is generally true. The AF still has specialized communities, F-15C, A-10. Those communities have an influence beyond their own and I think it sets a higher standard. When pilots are able to commit nearly 100% of their attention to a specific role, they raise the level knowledge and skill.
The Navy guys are dual role, and the boat stuff does limit how much focus they can give to any particular element of training.
That being said, the Navy guys are competent and proficient and when it comes to practical roles in today’s environment, are equal to the task. There are levels of complexity, and I would say that the AF is better in the higher levels of difficulty, but those challenges aren’t present in real world employment.
 
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mscard88 said:
I’d say pretty equal. Vietnam Aces.
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Hats off to all those guys who won the MiG lottery. I've only spoken with 5 or 6 MiG killers but (other than Steve Richie) they all say the same thing - "I was in the right place at the right time." Even Robin Olds told me that!

One of my recent mentors is a retired 2 star Admiral with 3 combat tours in Vietnam off the boat. He was just telling me this weekend that he did everything possible to get a MiG - flew the most MiG CAPS, launched at just the right time, etc, etc and never got one. Then he told me of a guy in his squadron who wasn't allowed to be on the MiG patrol because he wasn't up to snuff. He launched off the boat one day and a MiG 17 driver got lost over the water, he got vectors and hosed him with an AIM-9 -- MiG KILLER! Again, not to take away from anyone but a great deal of it is luck and timing. (like most things in the military)
 
EvilEagle said:
Hats off to all those guys who won the MiG lottery. I've only spoken with 5 or 6 MiG killers but (other than Steve Richie) they all say the same thing - "I was in the right place at the right time." Even Robin Olds told me that!

One of my recent mentors is a retired 2 star Admiral with 3 combat tours in Vietnam off the boat. He was just telling me this weekend that he did everything possible to get a MiG - flew the most MiG CAPS, launched at just the right time, etc, etc and never got one. Then he told me of a guy in his squadron who wasn't allowed to be on the MiG patrol because he wasn't up to snuff. He launched off the boat one day and a MiG 17 driver got lost over the water, he got vectors and hosed him with an AIM-9 -- MiG KILLER! Again, not to take away from anyone but a great deal of it is luck and timing. (like most things in the military)
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Rumor is Gen Olds was an Ace in VN but he didn’t claim #5 because he wanted to stay in theater as Commander of his Wing. He mention anything to you?
 
Cooter said:
Generalizations are usually partially right, but are always partially wrong. So, I’ll probably draw fire for this. But, when you break it down by community, I would say that is generally true. The AF still has specialized communities, F-15C, A-10. Those communities have an influence beyond their own and I think it sets a higher standard. When pilots are able to commit nearly 100% of their attention to a specific role, they raise the level knowledge and skill.
The Navy guys are dual role, and the boat stuff does limit how much focus they can give to any particular element of training.
That being said, the Navy guys are competent and proficient and when it comes to practical roles in today’s environment, are equal to the task. There are levels of complexity, and I would say that the AF is better in the higher levels of difficulty, but those challenges aren’t present in real world employment.
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Hats off to ya Cooter.

In all honesty I agree with Cooter - and he makes the same point I often make when talking to F-16 or F-15E guys about who is better at A/A. If you had two pilots with equal machines and one concentrates all his efforts on one specific set of skills, the other has to learn as much as he can about a multitude of missions there's no doubt that the first will be better at his given task. That doesn't mean the second one is any less of a great pilot or that his jet/service/whatever isn't as good. It's just a fact of life. We all make mistakes and I've seen plenty of Eagle dudes get bested by people from all communities.

We joke with the Navy guys about landings and it's all in good fun. I got lucky and went to the boat (Eisenhower) for a week when I was deployed to the UAE in 2012. Boat living and boat flying ain't the easiest thing in the world. There's a reason they spend so much time talking about landing - it's hard and it'll kill you if you don't do it right. I would like to land on a boat a couple of times just to say I did it (got to go out and back on the COD but that's not the same). Otherwise, I'll take the crosswinds, long runways and air conditioned hotels thank you very much. :D

I also agree that in training we really up the threat level to almost ridiculous levels instead of training for what's out there right now. IMHO that's required by the specialist communities like the Eagle and Hog to keep everyone a little closer to the edge when/if that war ever comes.
 
mscard88 said:
Rumor is Gen Olds was an Ace in VN but he didn’t claim #5 because he wanted to stay in theater as Commander of his Wing. He mention anything to you?
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Yes, I heard Olds personally tell the story that he "gave" one of his MiG kills to his wingman because he was worried they'd send him back to the US afterward.

Mandatory "There I Was" photo with Olds:
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EvilEagle said:
We joke with the Navy guys about landings and it's all in good fun.
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Yep, hopefully everyone reading this thread realizes this. Deep respect for the guys who do it, obviously.

If I had the chance to go learn how to land on a boat, you bet your ass I'd leap at the opportunity.

And, yes, Navy and Marine fighter pilots are just as good and bad as USAF fighter pilots.
 
Hacker said:
Yes, I heard Olds personally tell the story that he "gave" one of his MiG kills to his wingman because he was worried they'd send him back to the US afterward.

Mandatory "There I Was" photo with Olds:
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Great man! Loved his book.
 
mscard88 said:
Rumor is Gen Olds was an Ace in VN but he didn’t claim #5 because he wanted to stay in theater as Commander of his Wing. He mention anything to you?
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I read that in his book (that his daughter put together with Raz). I was a young Lt when I met him - he came to the Lakenheath O'club one Friday night. Thankfully some old dudes in my squadron (who were way younger than I am now- haha) told me I needed to be there to meet this guy. I hung in the back and listened to all the stories all night long, slowly getting closer to him as people left. At last call there were about 5 or 6 people in the bar and I ended up sitting next to the man. He looked over at me and said "An Eagle-driving Lt stationed at Lakenheath; son you must've done something right". We laughed and I asked him what one piece of advice I should hang my hat on. He said "Be ready. When the time comes, and you are in the moment be ready for it. I got to do some pretty amazing things because I was ready when the time came - and I was lucky that it came at all."

I didn't get to talk to him very much, but I'll never forget that.
 
Hacker said:
Yes, I heard Olds personally tell the story that he "gave" one of his MiG kills to his wingman because he was worried they'd send him back to the US afterward.

Mandatory "There I Was" photo with Olds:
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JAYSUS Hacker! You were a just a pup! haha - when did we get old dude???
 
EvilEagle said:
I read that in his book (that his daughter put together with Raz). I was a young Lt when I met him - he came to the Lakenheath O'club one Friday night. Thankfully some old dudes in my squadron (who were way younger than I am now- haha) told me I needed to be there to meet this guy. I hung in the back and listened to all the stories all night long, slowly getting closer to him as people left. At last call there were about 5 or 6 people in the bar and I ended up sitting next to the man. He looked over at me and said "An Eagle-driving Lt stationed at Lakenheath; son you must've done something right". We laughed and I asked him what one piece of advice I should hang my hat on. He said "Be ready. When the time comes, and you are in the moment be ready for it. I got to do some pretty amazing things because I was ready when the time came - and I was lucky that it came at all."

I didn't get to talk to him very much, but I'll never forget that.
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Wow. That’s very cool! Raz wrote a few books, excellent books on his F-105 tour and his F-4 tour. I have them on the bookshelf, and reread them every now and again.
 
mscard88 said:
Wow. That’s very cool! Raz wrote a few books, excellent books. I have them on the bookshelf, and reread them every now and again.
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Oh yeah, I love Palace Cobra! All his books are great, but that's my favorite and always recommend it to people who want to read about the air war in 'Nam.
 
Uh oh, thread derail time:

EdwardJRasimusJr.jpg


Raz was a mentor of mine when I was in college all the way up through when he got really sick. I met him when I was an ROTC cadet in the early 90s, when he was a prolific contributor to the rec.aviation.military newsgroups on the old USEnet, for those who remember that.

I had a chance to meet him finally circa '94 at the Air Force Association national convention back in DC...and he was every bit still the fighter pilot despite having been long since retired. He was full of fantastic stories and advice about what it means to be a warrior of the air. He fueled my inspiration to be a USAF pilot and gave me a lot of great perspective on combat airmanship and the heritage of the profession of arms.

He's featured as a combat-hardened, very salty, and awesomely-mustached 1Lt at about 4:00 into this great movie on flying Thuds, "There Is A Way":

 
Let’s not BS. If the AF wasn’t dictating the ATO in Desert Storm and let the the F-14 play, they would’ve far outnumbered F-15 kills and “Snort” would be an ace today. :eek:

TOMCATS RULE!!!
 
Velocity173 said:
Let’s not BS. If the AF wasn’t dictating the ATO in Desert Storm and let the the F-14 play, they would’ve far outnumbered F-15 kills and “Snort” would be an ace today. :eek:

TOMCATS RULE!!!
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Oh brother. :rolleyes:
 
What branch was the last to get an air to air kill (SU-22)?
 
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