Can a Safety Pilot Log Cross Country Time?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by MBDiagMan, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    The title is the question. If the flight is over 50 nM, and you land at an airport that far away, is it cross country time for the safety pilot? Does he have to land and take off?
     
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    No. There is a series of Chief Counsel letters few years ago discussing the issue the very first of which talks about safety pilots. Bottom line is that only the pilot who does the entire flight from takeoff to landing may log xc time.
     
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  3. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Thanks Mark!
     
  4. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    The safety pilot has one responsibility: traffic avoidance. No navigation, no communication, no use of the flight controls. Does that answer your question? Unless the requirements of 61.55 are met, the safety pilot is not even SIC.

    Bob Gardner
     
  5. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ... and unless operating under IFR, weather conditions. A simulated instrument pilot can't see traffic or the weather (which I guess boils down to traffic avoidance because the whole point of VFR minima is to make sure that you have enough see-and-avoid space).
     
  6. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    I also brief my safety pilots to keep me out of the rocks. We have some around here on some approaches. If I’m that far off “rusty” and he does not speak up, it could get bad.
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    From the 91.109 safety pilot rule:

    Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when ... The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely;​
    So why would a rule about someone who is nothing more than a lookout include access to flight control requirements and safety of flight determination if it is not there?

    As a required crewmember, a safety pilot does have safety of flight responsibilities. And since the safety pilot can be (not just log) PIC, he might be picking up primary flight responsibility as well.

    The cross country "entire flight" requirement is not about flight duties and responsibilities. It is, like most logging rules, a policy decision about what counts toward later certificates, ratings, and privileges. That series of interpretations does not deal exclusively with safety pilots but with pilots doing the flying too.
     
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  8. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    Never argue with a lawyer. I defer to your greater knowledge.

    Bob
     
  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Just reading what it says. Nothing special.
     
  10. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    When I fly under the hood, I brief the safety pilot to take the controls (and say so) if he or she sees a hazard and is not sure that it will be possible to advise me of it in time for me to avoid it.
     
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  11. pburger

    pburger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I never log safety pilot time at all. However, I thought this horse was beaten to death either on here or somewhere else, and the result was that a safety pilot is a required crewmember and therefore can log SIC time, but only for the time when the PIC is under the hood.

    (I realize the XC issue was already answered, I was just referring to logging the time as SIC)
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  12. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    How about this scenario? Pilot L and pilot R agree prior to the flight that pilot R will be PIC. Pilot R performs the take-off and at some point pilot L puts on the foggles and becomes sole manipulator of the controls. They then fly to an airport >51nm away from where they took off where pilot L removes the foggles and performs a landing.

    Who can log the XC? :devil:
     
  13. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    How about less than 50 miles? Still legal cross country. :devil::devil::devil:
     
  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Yes. That's correct. If the pilot under the hood is acting as PIC, the safety pilot may log SIC. It was beaten to death in 1993.
     
  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Are you asking for a real answer? Its no mystery. The answer is in the series of Chief Counsel letters I mentioned earlier. Neither.
     
  16. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Neither. Logging XC requires both the takeoff and landing.
     
  17. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    What if they both do a TO and Landing at both airports?
     
  18. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bingo. Here's why:

    [quote = "Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations"]
    §61.51
    (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

    (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted; or

    §91.109

    (c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

    (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot...[/quote]


    Because of the "or" at the end of 61.51(f)(2), you do not need to meet (f)(1) or (f)(3). 61.51(f)(2) alone means that you can log SIC time for that flight time during which more than one pilot is required under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted, namely, 91.109(c)(1).
     
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