Can a Mooney M20 be a good budget airplane?

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DMD3.

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There are a number of M20’s for sale on BS for under $100k, and some of them for under $80k. Most of them have antique 6-pack panels but that’s fine by me. I want something that’s fairly fast for $100 hamburgers but doesn’t need to be Lancair fast. I don’t intend to get an IFR rating so I don’t need a fancy panel (I use FF and a backup handheld Aera for VFR navigation). In some of the photos, I can see the front seats literally touching the backseats so I’d intend to remove the backseats to have extra baggage space and use it as a glorified 2-seater. I understand that the retractable-gear landing system very inexpensive to maintain and is virtually fail proof (“virtually” being the operative word) so insurance is also more affordable than most other RG’s, though perhaps somewhat higher than fixed-gear especially for a pilot with zero complex time? I definitely plan to have a thorough pre-buy, as buying an older, cheaper airplane can often cost more in maintenance in the following years than buy a more expensive but nicer one. And while I don’t plan to spend a fortune on unnecessary expenses like cosmetics or a glass cockpit, I still want an aircraft that won’t kill me or my bank account.

I don’t have mechanical knowledge so going experimental really wouldn’t save me on maintenance. I also don’t care about aerobatics, so that’s why I’m contemplating certified M20. I’ve often considered used Vans RV, as it can also fit the mission of a budget-friendly fast 2-seater but still wouldn’t have an advantage maintenance-wise as I’d still have to pay an A&P. This thread isn’t necessarily meant to be a comparison between M20’s and RV’s, but if you feel I’d be better off shopping for a Vans (6 through 9 models), feel free to state your case.

Edit: I failed to mention that I’m not buying for a time-builder, it’s pure recreation.
 
asicer said:
When talking Mooney, you really ought to specify whether you mean short body (M20C, M20E), mid-body (M20F, M20J, M20K) or long-body (M20L, M20M, etc)
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Based on his description, he’s talking about the short bodies. M20C and M20E are the most popular, C being a carbureted engine, and E fuel injection. Both have manual landing gear unless they were modified.
 
First priority is no corrosion. Can easily turn your plane into parts.
Second is a healthy engine, especially with a single engine aircraft.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Based on his description, he’s talking about the short bodies. M20C and M20E are the most popular, C being a carbureted engine, and E fuel injection. Both have manual landing gear unless they were modified.
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That's kind of what I got, but you never know if it could be a screaming deal or rotting corpse of a M20F.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Based on his description, he’s talking about the short bodies. M20C and M20E are the most popular, C being a carbureted engine, and E fuel injection. Both have manual landing gear unless they were modified.
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Yes, primarily the ‘C’ and ‘E’ models.
 
In reply to your question I believe the answer is yes. I own a '64 M20E Super 21 short body. It is mostly unmodified, but I have done some panel work that has cost me some. It had 2900 TTAF with 900 SMOH when I got it for $40k in Oct 2018. I fly LOP and go 375 NM on 26 gallons even with a headwind.

I can land it in 1200 feet every time and takeoff in 800. Almost as good as my old Cherokee 140. It holds more flies faster and burns less fuel over the ground.

It is a fantastic airplane for me.
 
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William Pete Hodges said:
In reply to your question I believe the answer is yes. I own a '64 M20E Super 21 short body. It is mostly unmodified, but I have done some panel work that has cost me some. It had 2900 TTAF with 900 SMOH when I got it for $40k in Oct 2018. I fly LOP and go 375 NM on 26 gallons even with a headwind.
It is a fantastic airplane for me.
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What kind of cruise speed & fuel burn do you typically have? And does the airframe & engine cruise well at high altitudes (9-11.5k feet) if you’re flying solo?
 
Basic answer is YES. They are pretty fuel efficient for the speeds you get. So you can reach out a little further on you Day or Weekend trips without spending a ton of Avgas.

Typically Mooneys are not thought of a Soft Field aircraft, but that does not rule out all soft fields. Major reason for this on TO/Landing is the gear doors (pending the model) and with the donut shocks, you can bounce and get the plane porpoising and then hit the prop. While taxing, you can hit a hole and get a good bounce that might also cause a prop strike. By no means take this as a deal breaker, just a consideration if a LOT of the airports you want to go to are not paved.

(And I know someone with a great F with all the J mods in FL if you're interested.)
 
DMD3. said:
What kind of cruise speed & fuel burn do you typically have? And does the airframe & engine cruise well at high altitudes (9-11.5k feet) if you’re flying solo?
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My bird is climbing at 400 fpm at 10,000 alt. I cruise 140 KTS TAS at 8 GPM LOP. I am cruising for efficiency not max speed, but I can do that if I want. I tend to cruise between 9500 and 10,500.
 
M20K said:
Typically Mooneys are not thought of a Soft Field aircraft, but that does not rule out all soft fields. Major reason for this on TO/Landing is the gear doors (pending the model)...
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AFAIK, the lower gear closure doors that reduced clearance were not included on the C, E, and F models. I believe they were part of the LoPresti clean up that created the J model. The big concern on grass and turf surfaces is potholes that the nose wheel can drop into and cause a prop strike.

I had windstorm damage on an F model where a C-150 broke loose, flipped over, and landed on the front cowling. Speared the prop and collapsed the nose and one main gear. Resulted in a major repair and I choose to have a 3 blade propeller installed.

The 3 blade prop added prop to ground clearance, that F turned into an amazing (IMO) true rough and/or short field airplane. When light with a little wind on the nose, was able to operate it out of an 1150' long NJ State packed sand forest fire service strip located in the pine barrens, with room to spare.

I will not operate my current J model on any unpaved surfaces. The lower main gear door closures and minimal 2 blade prop clearance could find holes or depressions, and ruin your day.
 
Grass airports wouldn’t be an issue.
 
DMD3. said:
Grass airports wouldn’t be an issue.
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I've been into grass fields in other aircraft. Some are manicured and beautiful, and others not so much. One new gopher or groundhog hole could be a problem with the J. Too much invested in this current ride to risk it...
 
DMD3. said:
There are a number of M20’s for sale on BS for under $100k, and some of them for under $80k. Most of them have antique 6-pack panels but that’s fine by me. I want something that’s fairly fast for $100 hamburgers but doesn’t need to be Lancair fast. I don’t intend to get an IFR rating so I don’t need a fancy panel (I use FF and a backup handheld Aera for VFR navigation). In some of the photos, I can see the front seats literally touching the backseats so I’d intend to remove the backseats to have extra baggage space and use it as a glorified 2-seater. I understand that the retractable-gear landing system very inexpensive to maintain and is virtually fail proof (“virtually” being the operative word) so insurance is also more affordable than most other RG’s, though perhaps somewhat higher than fixed-gear especially for a pilot with zero complex time? I definitely plan to have a thorough pre-buy, as buying an older, cheaper airplane can often cost more in maintenance in the following years than buy a more expensive but nicer one. And while I don’t plan to spend a fortune on unnecessary expenses like cosmetics or a glass cockpit, I still want an aircraft that won’t kill me or my bank account.

I don’t have mechanical knowledge so going experimental really wouldn’t save me on maintenance. I also don’t care about aerobatics, so that’s why I’m contemplating certified M20. I’ve often considered used Vans RV, as it can also fit the mission of a budget-friendly fast 2-seater but still wouldn’t have an advantage maintenance-wise as I’d still have to pay an A&P. This thread isn’t necessarily meant to be a comparison between M20’s and RV’s, but if you feel I’d be better off shopping for a Vans (6 through 9 models), feel free to state your case.

Edit: I failed to mention that I’m not buying for a time-builder, it’s pure recreation.
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if the plane is healthy, no corrosion, and i mean NONE and the engine/prop are sound, they are about as bullet proof as you can get, there isn't anything delicate about them.

there are a couple of wallet busting items but chances are you wont' run into them ( landing gear motors/springs )
as for under 80k, i'd be concerned, engine and prop overhaul alone, is in that range.
 
As I recall, @eman1200 once said something about banging the best bucks in a mooney C? Best buck bang? Someone help me out, I can't remember
 
Those radial tri-Mooneys are special. I heard they were hand built by Al Mooney himself
 
I've co-owned and now own a 1965 M20C for about 5.5 years. It's been primarily based on 2800' and 3000' grass strips without issue.

It's a bit of a sweet spot aircraft IMO. It's mostly just me and sometimes one other person. The C is the slow Mooney on the Mooney bus with only 180 hp. I usually flight plan for 150 mph between 6k' and 10k' and usually get slightly better than that. It makes a pretty stable IFR platform, and even with electric gear it's pretty obvious if you forget to put the gear down since the flap speed is so low you can't easily get them out unless the gear's already out (for older model C's anyway). Get a checkout with an instructor familiar with Mooney tendencies, and you'll have no problems (over the fence numbers are 75-80 mph).

The downsides are that you could run into a parts issue, depending on what it is. LASAR took over Mooney parts production, but they don't always have immediate availability. And as others have said, if the engine, prop, and airframe (no corrosion) is good you're probably good. Make sure it's had good maintenance, maybe even an occasional annual at a reputable shop that knows Mooneys would be good. I've heard some shops refuse to maintain due to being cramped, and as with any aircraft, if it's seen the same A&P/IA for years beware of things that have been overlooked. Verify AD's yourself (learned that lesson the hard way) before assuming the A&P has correctly complied with them. That's universal advice, but there are recurring gear and prop AD's, depending on how the plane's equipped, that could surprise you.

Also, checkout the Mooneyspace forums for more details.
 
Lots of good advice. Check out MooneySpace for more info. Call Airspeed insurance and they can give you a ballpark quote based on your experience... retracts can be expensive. Different models have different rate... the K are cheaper to insurance even thought they are higher performance than the J.
 
DMD3. said:
There are a number of M20’s for sale on BS for under $100k, and some of them for under $80k. Most of them have antique 6-pack panels but that’s fine by me. I want something that’s fairly fast for $100 hamburgers but doesn’t need to be Lancair fast. I don’t intend to get an IFR rating so I don’t need a fancy panel (I use FF and a backup handheld Aera for VFR navigation). In some of the photos, I can see the front seats literally touching the backseats so I’d intend to remove the backseats to have extra baggage space and use it as a glorified 2-seater. I understand that the retractable-gear landing system very inexpensive to maintain and is virtually fail proof (“virtually” being the operative word) so insurance is also more affordable than most other RG’s, though perhaps somewhat higher than fixed-gear especially for a pilot with zero complex time? I definitely plan to have a thorough pre-buy, as buying an older, cheaper airplane can often cost more in maintenance in the following years than buy a more expensive but nicer one. And while I don’t plan to spend a fortune on unnecessary expenses like cosmetics or a glass cockpit, I still want an aircraft that won’t kill me or my bank account.

I don’t have mechanical knowledge so going experimental really wouldn’t save me on maintenance. I also don’t care about aerobatics, so that’s why I’m contemplating certified M20. I’ve often considered used Vans RV, as it can also fit the mission of a budget-friendly fast 2-seater but still wouldn’t have an advantage maintenance-wise as I’d still have to pay an A&P. This thread isn’t necessarily meant to be a comparison between M20’s and RV’s, but if you feel I’d be better off shopping for a Vans (6 through 9 models), feel free to state your case.

Edit: I failed to mention that I’m not buying for a time-builder, it’s pure recreation.
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For that mission - "glorified two seater" $100 burger fun machine - an M20C would make a great airplane. Mooneys are known for squeezing the most knots out of a gallon of Avgas as physics reasonably allows, and the entire M20 line remains popular mainly for that reason.

While you won't be your A&P's favorite customer (things can be a bit harder to work on as everything is tightly packed), there are plenty of Mooneys in the world so it's not hard to find someone with at least some Mooney experience. And while it remains to be seen what the effect of LASAR's takeover of parts will be, I wouldn't be too worried anyway, I've had a long-body Mooney for nearly 14 years and I have yet to actually replace a single Mooney part. They're very stoutly built aircraft.

bonefishpete said:
Check the fuel tanks for leaks. They are spendy to re seal.
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Have you ever actually had this done? If so, how much was it?

I ask I'm starting to become convinced that this is the second-biggest myth of Mooneys, with the first being how "small and cramped" they are despite being wider than a Bonanza and with better legroom than nearly any other 4-seater.

I've owned my Mooney for 14 years, and it's about 29 years old. Still no signs of needing a full reseal, though I've had the panel under the wingwalk done a couple times. (Something about a big guy walking on it all the time...) This is considered to be a 30-year item in the modern era, and I've been hearing about this "expensive tank reseal" and dreading it, until I looked into what it actually cost... The lifetime of fuel bladders (which are what non-wet-wing airplanes use) is similar, and the cost to replace them both is similar, so I'm not sure why this gets talked about as a Mooney thing when in reality it's an any-airplane thing.
 
A budget airplane has fixed gear. At least as close to budget as one can get.

Another way to reduce costs is to inherit a running aircraft, not a nightmare project.
 
Another thing to consider when considering purchasing an older sub-100k Mooney is gear up damage history. Don’t be scared off. A Mooney gears up very well and once repaired properly on an insurance company’s dime is probably in better shape than before it bellied in.

When shopping, look for a new propeller installed before it’s time, along with a lack of mention of NDH in the ad.

With a gear up repair in the log books, they’re often sold with up to a 10% discount. And IMO, that discount is almost free money, and parked in your bank until it’s time to sell it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
For that mission - "glorified two seater" $100 burger fun machine - an M20C would make a great airplane. Mooneys are known for squeezing the most knots out of a gallon of Avgas as physics reasonably allows, and the entire M20 line remains popular mainly for that reason.

I've owned my Mooney for 14 years, and it's about 29 years old. Still no signs of needing a full reseal, though I've had the panel under the wingwalk done a couple times. (Something about a big guy walking on it all the time...) This is considered to be a 30-year item in the modern era, and I've been hearing about this "expensive tank reseal" and dreading it, until I looked into what it actually cost... The lifetime of fuel bladders (which are what non-wet-wing airplanes use) is similar, and the cost to replace them both is similar, so I'm not sure why this gets talked about as a Mooney thing when in reality it's an any-airplane thing.
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I agree that the M20C is a great candidate for a VFR fun burger machine. A well maintained and flown one shouldn't have very many surprises.

If the Mooney being considered has an updated to 6-pack panel (but not necessary in this case), positive control wing leveler (not necessary but nice), and a Johnson Gear Bar, there's not much on the airframe to go wrong if properly cared for and flown.

A basic M20C, minus an autopilot and IFR subscriptions, in good shape (and flown) should be fairly inexpensive, with less operating and maintenance expenses than many other brands of aircraft being sold for under 100K. Arriving a destination sooner while using less fuel saves money, too.

A lack of corrosion, and condition of the engine are the biggies. Followed up with front inside the cowling related accessories (hoses, wiring, baffling, etc. If properly cared for, none of this should offer up any surprises.
 
Service Bulletin 208A tube frame corrosion.
Have this done or recently logged.
It caught me just before it came out.
 
bonefishpete said:
Service Bulletin 208A tube frame corrosion.
Have this done or recently logged.
It caught me just before it came out.
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Yes, an oldie, but super important SB. If that common attic type insulation hasn't ever been changed to the foil backed hard foam, whether or not any corrosion is found during a pre-buy inspection, I'd run away from that plane and never look back. It's indicative of penny-pinching on maintenance for a long long time...
 
Rick A said:
Yes, an oldie, but super important SB. If that common attic type insulation hasn't ever been changed to the foil backed hard foam, whether or not any corrosion is found during a pre-buy inspection, I'd run away from that plane and never look back. It's indicative of penny-pinching on maintenance for a long long time...
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One last one is inspect wheel well for spar cap corrosion. Plane killer.
 
sourdough44 said:
A budget airplane has fixed gear. At least as close to budget as one can get.
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A plane with dirt-simple retracts like the Mooney is going to save enough on gas that it's a wash.

And it is dirt simple. A big lever connected to rods that shoves the gear down. The Johnson Bar system is so dirt simple and reliable that it's the only retract system certified with no backup.

Electric gear became standard in 1969; the electric version replaces the Johnson Bar with an electric actuator but the rest of the system is the same. In case of motor failure there's a pull cable system with a clutch that ties into the rest that lets you get it down. If you get one with this, make sure you visit the plane while it's in annual and do an emergency extension while it's up on jacks so you know what it's like in case you ever have to do it for real.
 
The gear on a johnson bar mooney is so bullet proof that there is no backup method for extending the gear. If you pull the bar and it doesn't work, it's because something isn't there.
 
bflynn said:
The gear on a johnson bar mooney is so bullet proof that there is no backup method for extending the gear.
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If your arm can't get it down, is there enough room to use your leg?
 
If you are under 7 feet tall, you won’t be able to see over the glare shield. Weight and balance is a problem if you don’t have at least 1,000 lbs of weight between you and your passenger. The cup holders are sized and shaped for Jack Daniel’s bottles. If you have never been cut from a World’s Strongest Man competition for your out-of-this-world strength, you won’t be able to handle the control forces. Al Mooney built these planes for his own physique, so make sure you measure up before you buy one.

More seriously, the M20 is popular for a reason. In certified land, you can fly faster than a Mooney and you can fly for less money than a Mooney, but if you are comfortable in the seat you will probably never go faster for less money. The NASCAR strength crash cage, simple systems, sports car control feel, and all the other unique Mooney features are icing on the cake.
 
I have owned four Mooneys. I currently own an RV. For simple, fast, fun, VFR flying without the need for more than two seats, RV is the answer.
 
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