Calling All Engineers

[Ghery]

In some states, though, it's illegal for non-licensed engineers to even refer to themselves as an engineer, though 3/4 of the profession practices under some sort of licensing exemption. Here in Florida, at least, engineers practicing under an exemption can use the title "engineer" if they have an engineering degree from an accredited university. That's not true everywhere, though laws prohibiting use of the title often fail in the courts.

Washington is one of those states where you can't call yourself an engineer unless you have a PE. If you are working independently. When I was employed by Intel my job title included the word "engineer" and that was fine. Never did work for someone with a PE, and if I did it would have been from a different state. And I know people at Intel with the word "engineer" in their job title who don't even have an engineering degree. Now that I'm retired from Intel my business card says "President". No regulations on that. "Consultant" would have been fine, too. Just can't call myself "Engineer" without that PE. Even though I have a BSEE from Washington State University. Heck, I even teach a seminar at WSU every year. Oh well...

 

[Half Fast]

Washington is one of those states where you can't call yourself an engineer unless you have a PE. If you are working independently. When I was employed by Intel my job title included the word "engineer" and that was fine. Never did work for someone with a PE, and if I did it would have been from a different state. And I know people at Intel with the word "engineer" in their job title who don't even have an engineering degree. Now that I'm retired from Intel my business card says "President". No regulations on that. "Consultant" would have been fine, too. Just can't call myself "Engineer" without that PE. Even though I have a BSEE from Washington State University. Heck, I even teach a seminar at WSU every year. Oh well...

Stupid, isn't it?

Lots of folks, with engineering degrees, merely use a different term in places of "engineer." They run consulting businesses with names like, "EMC Consultants" or "Electrical Design Services." They can even list their degree after their name, like John Doe, MSEE or whatever. So what it comes down to is the state boards are enforcing (rarely) who calls themselves "engineer" rather than who is practicing engineering.

Frankly, the field is so broad, that a clear legal definition of "practicing engineering" is difficult. Many times, when an engineer runs afoul of the state board, he just backs down, but in cases where a qualified engineer decides to fight back the state often loses in court. Consequently, they seldom go after non-licensed folks who are truly engineers, unless the engineer is signing off drawings that require a PE stamp.

If you haven't read about the EE in Oregon, Matt Järlström, you should. https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/12/state_board_concedes_it_violat.html The board is losing:

Oregon's Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying unconstitutionally applied state law governing engineering practice to Mats Järlström when he exercised his free speech about traffic lights and described himself as an engineer since he was doing so "in a noncommercial'' setting and not soliciting professional business, the state Department of Justice has conceded.

"We have admitted to violating Mr. Järlström's rights,'' said Christina L. Beatty-Walters, senior assistant attorney general, in federal court Monday.

The state's regulation of Järlström under engineering practice law "was not narrowly tailored to any compelling state interests,'' she wrote in court papers.

And then we have the folks who use the title but have no engineering degree, no training, etc. Sales engineer, quality engineer, service engineer, audio engineer, et cetera ad nauseum. Those I would like to see stopped.

Personally, I think the IEEE's position is reasonable:

It is our position that individuals who have graduated with an engineering degree from an ABET/EAC accredited program of engineering education should not be prohibited from using the title “Engineer.” The protected titles “Professional Engineer,” “Licensed Engineer,” “Registered Engineer,” and variations thereof should be reserved for those whose educationand experience qualify them to practice in a manner that protects public health, safety and welfare and who have been licensed to practice engineering by a jurisdiction.

https://ieeeusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Engineertitle1116.pdf

 

[Ghery]

Personally, I think the IEEE's position is reasonable:

https://ieeeusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Engineertitle1116.pdf

I'll agree with the IEEE position. Quite reasonable, from my point of view. But, I am a Life Senior Member of the IEEE.

 

[Half Fast]

I'll agree with the IEEE position. Quite reasonable, from my point of view. But, I am a Life Senior Member of the IEEE.

Congratulations! I'm also an IEEE Senior Member. You are obviously a highly astute engineer, a pillar of technical wisdom, and a true gentleman.

The IEEE position is pretty much reflected in Florida's law for those practicing under a license exemption.

3. Any person who is exempt from licensure under s. 471.003(2)(c) or (e) may use the title or personnel classification of “engineer” in the scope of his or her work under that exemption if the title does not include or connote the term “professional engineer,” “registered engineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered professional engineer,” or “licensed professional engineer” and if that person is a graduate from an approved engineering curriculum of 4 years or more in a school, college, or university which has been approved by the board.

I do wish the states had picked a term other than "professional engineer," though. What are the rest of us? Amateurs? Personally, I think "Certified Public Engineer" (akin to Certified Public Accountant) would have been better.

 

[Hank S]

I hear what you're saying, but licensing is fairly irrelevant for people designing complex mechanical and electrical systems for defense contractors, since the fields in play are very specialized and you're either coming in with advanced specialized education or are being trained in the area you will be working on, and they already have QA/QC and vetting processes in place.

PE exams are heavily weighted toward civil works and code compliance, even the mechanical and electrical. The guy designing the drainage culvert may well be operating on his own.

Licensing is pretty much irrelevant to those of us in manufacturing, too. I've worked in consumer products, medical devices (both disposable and durable, and some implants) and now industrial products. I have a BSME and MSE, and took the EIT before graduating.

 

[wanttaja]

Washington is one of those states where you can't call yourself an engineer unless you have a PE. If you are working independently. When I was employed by Intel my job title included the word "engineer" and that was fine. Never did work for someone with a PE, and if I did it would have been from a different state. And I know people at Intel with the word "engineer" in their job title who don't even have an engineering degree. Now that I'm retired from Intel my business card says "President". No regulations on that. "Consultant" would have been fine, too. Just can't call myself "Engineer" without that PE. Even though I have a BSEE from Washington State University. Heck, I even teach a seminar at WSU every year. Oh well...

Licensed Professional Engineers got "PE" after their names on their Boeing badges.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Licensed Professional Engineers got "PE" after their names on their Boeing badges.

Ron Wanttaja

and there ain't many of them.....most do not have a PE. I work with lots of former Boeing Aero Engineers....and none have the credential. Out of a floor of several hundred Engineers....I found one PE where I'm at. I needed a PE stamp for a project of mine....it was tough finding one.

 

[Half Fast]

In many countries besides the US, it's common to use "Engineer" as a pre-nominal, so that an engineer would be called "Engineer John Doe." In Italy, for example, the honorific is "Ingegnere."

This had a brief run in the US during the 1930s but never took off. The idea was to use "Engr." before the name, much like Mr. or Dr. This is similar to usage in some parts of Europe and Latin America where "Ing." is used before the name of an engineer.

David Steinman, the civil engineer who founded the NSPE, was a proponent of this. He considered it a way to increase the visibility of engineers (ours is known as the "stealth profession" after all) and to enhance their prestige. He used to write his name "Engr. D. B. Steinman."

I rather like the idea. I wish it had caught on here.

 

[Half Fast]

and there ain't many of them.....most do not have a PE. I work with lots of former Boeing Aero Engineers....and none have the credential. Out of a floor of several hundred Engineers....I found one PE where I'm at. I needed a PE stamp for a project of mine....it was tough finding one.

Yep. I only know of a couple at our place, and both used to work in the construction industry.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Licensing is pretty much irrelevant to those of us in manufacturing, too. I've worked in consumer products, medical devices (both disposable and durable, and some implants) and now industrial products. I have a BSME and MSE, and took the EIT before graduating.

Right. My intention was to work in a manufacturing or R&D environment (my undergraduate degree is a BSME) but I graduated at a time when things were tough for ME's. I have an MSCE but I had to learn all that civil surveying crap I never took in the ME program to take the civil PE.

 

[Old97]

PE exams are heavily weighted toward civil works and code compliance, even the mechanical and electrical. The guy designing the drainage culvert may well be operating on his own.

.
Having recently passed the mechanical exam, i’m going to conditionally dispute this statement. That’s likely true for the HVAC-specific exam, but not all. I think there are 4 different mechanical exams you can take now.

 

[Sac Arrow]

.
Having recently passed the mechanical exam, i’m going to conditionally dispute this statement. That’s likely true for the HVAC-specific exam, but not all. I think there are 4 different mechanical exams you can take now.

Interesting to know, my familiarity is not current.

 

[skier]

.
Having recently passed the mechanical exam, i’m going to conditionally dispute this statement. That’s likely true for the HVAC-specific exam, but not all. I think there are 4 different mechanical exams you can take now.

What industry do you work in that you decided to take the PE as a mechanical engineer?

 

[Old97]

What industry do you work in that you decided to take the PE as a mechanical engineer?

Oil and gas. I seems like it is starting to become more useful is this age of consolidation and ever-increasing technical requirements.

I do a fair bit of simple lifting structures as well, so that is more driving the need for me personally.

Examples would be customer-imposed stamp requirement for subsea production equipment, or offshore lifting structures. Not required to be stamped by state law, but the customer requirement is imposed as a quality measure.