Caitlyn Jenner, Really?

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Almost nothing in nature is binary--are there only two possible skin colors? Two eye colors? Two hair colors? Even eye and hair color are not enumerable--you can have blue eyes, blue-green eyes, green eyes, brown eyes, greenish brown eyes, and almost everything in between. Same with hair color. Even species boundaries are not always clear-cut. So why would you think gender would be the one thing that nature says, "there will only be two of these!" Already in this thread somebody brought up physical in-betweens with regards to gender--why can't you accept that there may be mental, psychological, hormonal, or other non-obvious gender issues?

There are basically only two possibilities here. Either Caitlyn really is female somewhere deep-down inside, despite her physical gender expression, or it's not a real thing and she's making it up. And you have two possible responses: refuse to acknowledge her chosen name and gender identity in a public forum, or go with it. Let's examine the four possible combinations of these things:

1. Her gender is real and you refuse to acknowledge it in a public forum: You deny someone their identity and cause real pain (hence the "bully" moniker)
2. Her gender is not real, and you refuse to acknowledge it: I guess you get a gold star for seeing through her BS. Congrats, we should all be as clever as you :rolleyes:
3. Her gender is real and you go with it: You've shown compassion for a fellow human being.
4. Her gender is not real, but you go with it anyway: You've shown compassion for someone who maybe didn't deserve it, but what did it cost you?

For me, the choice is clear. I'm going to call someone by the name and pronouns they've asked to be called by, because it's the compassionate thing to do. So what if the science is unclear and it might be all in her head? I personally believe it IS a real thing, but even if you don't, what's the harm? Show respect for a fellow human being.
 
Lol... just got mine saw her standing by him/ her new bonanza.
 
Doesn't this crap belong down in hanger talk? :)
 
RJM62 said:
There's really no relevance of gender reassignment to flying other than the medical effects of the hormones or the recovery from the surgery (if any). It seems to me that FAA wants to make sure the person's not psychotic, delusional, suicidal, or whatever, in addition to being gender dysphoric.

I personally think the majority of supposedly TG people are delusional. There really are no good data because even scientific questioning of people's self-assigned genders is taboo these days. I suspect that only a very small fraction of gender dysphoria cases have even a hint of an identifiable organic cause. But we're not allowed to question that. If a man declares himself to be a woman (or vice-versa), we just have to accept it without question.

Nonetheless, I don't think being (nor claiming to be) TG have anything to do with whether or not these folks are fit to fly unless there are other associated problems; so in this case I find myself peculiarly in agreement with FAA medical policies (which I usually consider rather byzantine, at least as they pertain to Third Class).

Then again, I wouldn't necessarily consider someone who believed himself to be General Patton, or Alexander the Great, or Porky Pig, or Porky Pig stuck in Petunia Pig's body, to necessarily be unfit to fly. To me, such a person would be no more delusional than are most self-proclaimed TG people. If Porky's delusions about his identity don't affect his ability to fly safely, then I say let him go for it.

Rich
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Interesting part of this post is the very real issue we have of not being able to ask or effectively study issues like this as they are taboo.

Instead we have case files of sex offenders and victims. My wife is a deputy prosecutor and specializes in sex and child cases. . . .

It's interesting who she quietly says is gay and then gets picked up with a same sex partner. Biology or not, her accuracy is uncanny.
 
Lachlan said:
You're referring to the days of yore, when your issue wasn't an issue because people learned things in school. Too often there is a proclivity to use one of two homonyms when they're available, even though their meanings are different. ;)
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azure said:
Oh, I don't go around picking fights with people online over it, but it does rankle. I could accept that it was a case of poor schooling if it weren't for the fact that some very educated people make those spelling errors consistently (and I do consider them more a case of spelling errors than of mistakenly using a homonym, as I doubt people who write "loose" pronounce it that way). The other day I saw "it's" in a piece of science reporting. What's the world coming to?

(No, of course I'm being tongue in cheek with that - it bothers me personally but it ain't the death of the English language. Not yet, anyway.)
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azure said:
Oh, I don't go around picking fights with people online over it, but it does rankle. I could accept that it was a case of poor schooling if it weren't for the fact that some very educated people make those spelling errors consistently (and I do consider them more a case of spelling errors than of mistakenly using a homonym, as I doubt people who write "loose" pronounce it that way). The other day I saw "it's" in a piece of science reporting. What's the world coming to?

(No, of course I'm being tongue in cheek with that - it bothers me personally but it ain't the death of the English language. Not yet, anyway.)
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Come on, man, I crafted a work of art in that post and you didn't even see it. I used you're, your, yore; too, to, and two; loose and lose; they're, there and their. It was a grammargeek's wet dream and you slept through it. (Or something like that.)
 
To be perfectly honest, I don't really care if someone wants to call themselves any gender or wear a dress or have cosmetic surgeries or whatever. It's a free country, do what you want as long as you don't make it my problem. I personally think we get a little too hung up on how people feel on the inside though. I feel like a lot of things on the inside, on the inside I feel like I'm a 6' tall starship captain but all the feelings in the world don't make it real. At some point a person has to work within the bounds of reality and make the best of what they are/have.

One also has to consider that they exist within a larger community of other people who all follow certain conventions so that we can all operate in a reasonably fair and smooth way. Asking 99.9% of us to change our whole way of doing things just so the .1% feels more comfortable isn't really reasonable. Expecting to be called normal or have others understand when you're something unusual isn't reasonable either(whatever happened to people being proud of their differences anyway?). That doesn't make it ok for people to be insulting, attack, or exclude people for being different... we're obviously going to have some issues with male or female only groups and activities but beyond that there's really no excuse and that includes aviation. Unless someone can make a case for genitals having a measurable impact on flying ability who cares?

I expect most people feel similarly when push comes to shove... I've got no real ill will towards trans people and I wish them well. I just don't think I should have to change my life so they can have their version of reality affirmed.

As far as Caitlyn goes... this individual chose to live a certain way and that's fine, but does she deserve a medal for it? Does she really deserve all this attention- winning woman of the year for god sakes? Come on...
 
jhinman said:
1. Her gender is real and you refuse to acknowledge it in a public forum: You deny someone their identity and cause real pain (hence the "bully" moniker)
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Stop: I'm calling BS right there. If it's YOUR identity, it doesn't rely on what anyone else thinks of it. If it relies on what someone else things of it, that's the only time someone else can "deny" it of you. And thus, not YOURs.

In other words, if you base your self-image (or worse, your self-worth) on what someone else perceives it to be, prepare to be quite disappointed in life.
 
denverpilot said:
Stop: I'm calling BS right there. If it's YOUR identity, it doesn't rely on what anyone else thinks of it. If it relies on what someone else things of it, that's the only time someone else can "deny" it of you. And thus, not YOURs.

In other words, if you base your self-image (or worse, your self-worth) on what someone else perceives it to be, prepare to be quite disappointed in life.
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Maybe you missed that he was simply laying out various choices?
 
timwinters said:
Maybe you missed that he was simply laying out various choices?
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If the first choice is invalid, the entire list becomes suspect.

Especially considering the list is based off the concept being sold in item 1. And make no doubt, it's a sales pitch.
 
And we all know that sales pitches to be considerate and respectful of others falls on deaf ears with most people here.
 
denverpilot said:
If the first choice is invalid, the entire list becomes suspect...
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That doesn't make any sense. The four possibilities he listed are mutually exclusive, and therefore not dependent on each other.
 
timwinters said:
And we all know that sales pitches to be considerate and respectful of others falls on deaf ears with most people here.
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Who here was disrespected? You're whining about something that hasn't occurred anywhere but in your head.
 
timwinters said:
Maybe you missed that he was simply laying out various choices?
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Yeah, he listed choices as "one of two choices," right after he said that everything in nature is one of many things, and sexuality can be more than just male/female, therefore life isn't as easy as "one of two choices," etc. Seemed like an attempt at ironic humor, but he might have been serious.
 
denverpilot said:
Who here was disrespected? You're whining about something that hasn't occurred anywhere but in your head.
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Holy sh*t! Really? There's been no disrespect shown in this thread? YGBFSM

Reality is what's going on in my head. I have no idea WTF is going on in yours.
 
jhinman said:
...Show respect for a fellow human being.
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It's fashionable among some people to say that respect must be earned. I say that respect is a birthright, and DISrespect must be earned!
 
denverpilot said:
Caitlyn isn't here in case you hadn't noticed.
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Maybe you haven't heard the TED talk where Monica Lewinski talks about how close she was to committing suicide for an extended period of time because she was the butt of jokes nationwide.

She wasn't in many of those rooms either.

Nate...you're exceedingly crass...repeatedly...consistently...
 
Palmpilot said:
It's fashionable among some people to say that respect must be earned. I say that respect is a birthright, and DISrespect must be earned!
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It's also fashionable to assume those are binary or that indifference is disrespect.

Most folks start at indifference. Therefore both respect and disrespect actually are both earned.
 
@denverpilot

Nate, you obviously don't have to answer this question if you don't feel comfortable doing so (see how I was concerned for your feelings there?)

But...

I gotta ask.

Are you by chance Donald Trump's illegitimate son? :)
 
timwinters said:
Maybe you haven't heard the TED talk where Monica Lewinski talks about how close she was to committing suicide for an extended period of time because she was the butt of jokes nationwide.

She wasn't in many of those rooms either.

Nate...you're exceedingly crass...repeatedly...consistently...
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Monica apparently ties her self-worth or self-image to what others think of her. That's a mistake, as I've said many times before.

If you rely on others for your self-approval, prepare to be disappointed. Forever.

Want even dumber drama? Worry about what others think of someone else you don't even know.

Worry about celebrities lives... That's a sure fire way to waste yours. Turn off the media machine and you wouldn't even know they exist.

You actively and aggressively look for reasons to become "offended" for strangers, and I typically don't. That's all.

What people think of them is just evidence that every human born has opinions. It's their choice, knowing that, as to whether or not to pay any attention to it. Most of them aren't dumb enough to care what I think about them, either.

Good for them.
 
timwinters said:
@denverpilot

Nate, you obviously don't have to answer this question if you don't feel comfortable doing so (see how I was concerned for your feelings there?)

But...

I gotta ask.

Are you by chance Donald Trump's illegitimate son? :)
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Is that your version of the "considerate and respectful" feel you want here? ;)
 
Lachlan said:
Come on, man, I crafted a work of art in that post and you didn't even see it. I used you're, your, yore; too, to, and two; loose and lose; they're, there and their. It was a grammargeek's wet dream and you slept through it. (Or something like that.)
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What makes you think I didn't notice it? Maybe because I'm not a grammar geek, I didn't think it needed commenting on. (Or maybe because you used all the constructs correctly. Have we really reached the point where correct grammar and spelling is actually noteworthy?)
 
Who cares, dude was a good athlete, decided to become a she, only thing news worthy was his past history in sports IMO.
 
Lachlan said:
So we have to accept Jenner for who Jenner wishes to be, but you won't accept Nate for being Nate? I get it now. I finally understand.
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We can think whatever we like but that doesn't mean it always needs to spill out of our pen, I mean keyboard...
 
timwinters said:
Maybe you haven't heard the TED talk where Monica Lewinski talks about how close she was to committing suicide for an extended period of time because she was the butt of jokes nationwide.

She wasn't in many of those rooms either.

Nate...you're exceedingly crass...repeatedly...consistently...
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Monica may have been "close. . .to committing suicide", but not because she was the butt of jokes nationwide. More likely she was close to suicide because she couldn't deal with being the butt of jokes. There's an important diffrence there. Tolerance goes both ways, and making yourself a national figure, intentionally or not, subjects you to comment, jokes, crticism, celebrity, etc.

Jenner's situation is repugnant to some, and guess what? That's also a legitmate reaction, honestly held. Not mine, but so what? It's not bullying, it's opinion. If Monica or Bruce wilt when encountering it, they need to look to their own character.

If you think we all should be open and accepting, that's cool. And also your opinion. Other opinions exist, with as much validity. Deal with them with that in mind, or pick up your own "Bully" T-shirt on the way out.
 
Everskyward said:
We can think whatever we like but that doesn't mean it always needs to spill out of our pen, I mean keyboard...
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So what should I type here? Some Stepford Pilot type of "toe the line" drivel? No opinions, no free thought? Merica. The land of the meek.
 
denverpilot said:
Is that your version of the "considerate and respectful" feel you want here? ;)
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The day you start to display a mere modicum of deference towards others is the day I will extend the same courtesy to you. Until then you will continue to bring out the worst in me with your bull in a china shop impersonations.

And for letting that happen I apologize to everyone here...

...everyone except Nate that is.
 
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Lachlan said:
So what should I type here? Some Stepford Pilot type of "toe the line" drivel? No opinions, no free thought? Merica. The land of the meek.
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You could refrain from typing anything.
 
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