C310 down at KSNA

From the live news thing I saw (the news though, so....) they lost the right engine. I don't want to armchair pilot, but a 310R should be able to fly/climb no problem at sea level with 2 people and full fuel on board. He sounded panicked.

For you folks that fly twins, this may be a great reminder to stay CURRENT. Current in emergencies, current in landing on 1, current on air restarts. It's easy to get complacent on twins when you're flying from A to B regularly and all is normal... until it isn't.
 
Z06_Mir said:
From the live news thing I saw (the news though, so....) they lost the right engine. I don't want to armchair pilot, but a 310R should be able to fly/climb no problem at sea level with 2 people and full fuel on board. He sounded panicked.

For you folks that fly twins, this may be a great reminder to stay CURRENT. Current in emergencies, current in landing on 1, current on air restarts. It's easy to get complacent on twins when you're flying from A to B regularly and all is normal... until it isn't.
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Well, could've been worse. At least it doesn't appear to be a roll.
 
The actual crash sequence on video
 
Glad everybody got out and hoping for fast and complete recovery.

Just for my education, what is the procedure for a right engine out upon take off. This is my guess without looking it up (imagining I'm in the right seat and the pilot is incapacitated) - right rudder to get coordinated, full throttle, I assume mixture and prop is already full up, gear up, and flaps up with a positive rate of climb. Also, somehow to get the right prop from free wheeling.
 
vanman said:
Glad everybody got out and hoping for fast and complete recovery.

Just for my education, what is the procedure for a right engine out upon take off. This is my guess without looking it up (imagining I'm in the right seat and the pilot is incapacitated) - right rudder to get coordinated, full throttle, I assume mixture and prop is already full up, gear up, and flaps up with a positive rate of climb. Also, somehow to get the right prop from free wheeling.
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Right rudder?!
 
See, I would have already killed myself. Hopefully, I would have put in the correct rudder input to fly straight ahead. Left rudder. (I probably said right rudder because I only fly single engine and generally that's what you all hear).
 
vanman said:
See, I would have already killed myself. Hopefully, I would have put in the correct rudder input to fly straight ahead. Left rudder. (I probably said right rudder because I only fly single engine and generally that's what you all hear).
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A way to think about this is if the right engine fails, the left engine will make the airplane yaw to the right, so you would apply left rudder to bring the nose back to the left. However, in the moment, you react to the nose yawing before you try to identify which engine it is.
 
vanman said:
See, I would have already killed myself. Hopefully, I would have put in the correct rudder input to fly straight ahead. Left rudder. (I probably said right rudder because I only fly single engine and generally that's what you all hear).
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This is the cliff note version of right engine failure shortly after takeoff.

Left rudder to split the ball, not center it.
Bank 3-5 degrees into the good engine (left).
Dead foot dead engine. Verify by pulling the right throttle to idle. Then feather the right prop and you can finish securing the engine.
As you were simultaneously doing the first two steps you also reach over and lift the gear and flaps if they are still down and ensure full power on the good engine and keep the airspeed on the blue line (Vyse).

A 310 with 2 people and full fuel should now be climbing straight ahead with zero side slip at around 400 fpm at that density altitude. Get to a safe altitude then turn back, preferably into the good engine, and don't lower the gear/flaps until you are certain you have the runway made.

Train, train, train to attempt to make this second nature so you don't freak out and do something less than favorable.
 
Everskyward said:
The poster did say...

...so I'm assuming they don't know.

@vanman, it would be left rudder with the right engine out, but in a practical sense, you should do what is necessary to keep the nose straight.
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Yeah, I'm not assuming. I'm positive he didn't know. But just taking a moment to actually think through the basic concept of asymmetric thrust should have enabled him to get the rudder portion of it correct. The rest does require some training.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Right rudder?!
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vanman said:
Glad everybody got out and hoping for fast and complete recovery.

Just for my education, what is the procedure for a right engine out upon take off. This is my guess without looking it up (imagining I'm in the right seat and the pilot is incapacitated) - right rudder to get coordinated, full throttle, I assume mixture and prop is already full up, gear up, and flaps up with a positive rate of climb. Also, somehow to get the right prop from free wheeling.
Click to expand...
vanman said:
Glad everybody got out and hoping for fast and complete recovery.

Just for my education, what is the procedure for a right engine out upon take off. This is my guess without looking it up (imagining I'm in the right seat and the pilot is incapacitated) - right rudder to get coordinated, full throttle, I assume mixture and prop is already full up, gear up, and flaps up with a positive rate of climb. Also, somehow to get the right prop from free wheeling.
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Nice thought, but misplaced. You're not going to "get coordinated" with a failed engine. The rudder is the most effective control at low speeds, and you use full rudder authority to stop the yaw. Stopping the yaw arrests any rolling moment. With everything cleaned up the ball should be half-way out on the good engine side.

My goal as a multiengine instructor was to make an engine failure an inconvenience, not an emergency, because in an emergency our brains freeze up and we regress to our natural instincts as opposed to our trained instincts. The way to do that is by killing engines left and right (one at a time) in all phases of flight until the student more or less automatically does the right thing every time.

One caveat for those embarking on the MEL rating: The ACS says "The evaluator must not simulate failure of an engine until attaining at least Vsse/Vxse/Vyse and an altitude not lower than 400 feet AGL." Beware of the instructor who fails engines after liftoff and before reaching 400 feet AGL. It is not necessary to risk life and limb in order to learn aircraft control with asymmetric thrust.

Bob
 
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vanman said:
See, I would have already killed myself. Hopefully, I would have put in the correct rudder input to fly straight ahead. Left rudder. (I probably said right rudder because I only fly single engine and generally that's what you all hear).
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Step on the BALL!
 
Radar Contact said:
This is the cliff note version of right engine failure shortly after takeoff.

Left rudder to split the ball, not center it.
Bank 3-5 degrees into the good engine (left).
Dead foot dead engine. Verify by pulling the right throttle to idle. Then feather the right prop and you can finish securing the engine.
As you were simultaneously doing the first two steps you also reach over and lift the gear and flaps if they are still down and ensure full power on the good engine and keep the airspeed on the blue line (Vyse).

A 310 with 2 people and full fuel should now be climbing straight ahead with zero side slip at around 400 fpm at that density altitude. Get to a safe altitude then turn back, preferably into the good engine, and don't lower the gear/flaps until you are certain you have the runway made.
Click to expand...

Don't understand this one at all - he turned into the dead engine - on a right down wind - and appears to have totally bollocks up what should have been a non-event -

how much you want to bet that he slowed the thing down too far to put the gear down and got below blue line in the turn from base to final - and lost it. I can't think of any other answer if the left one was running ok. A 310 should easily make the field on one motor.

I mean gee - a 172 doesn't climb much better than 400fpm at gross with a good motor spinning.
 
This has been shown before, but notice how quick it happens when the plane gets too slow.

 
comanchepilot said:
Don't understand this one at all - he turned into the dead engine - on a right down wind - and appears to have totally bollocks up what should have been a non-event -

how much you want to bet that he slowed the thing down too far to put the gear down and got below blue line in the turn from base to final - and lost it. I can't think of any other answer if the left one was running ok. A 310 should easily make the field on one motor.

I mean gee - a 172 doesn't climb much better than 400fpm at gross with a good motor spinning.
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But below blue line is okay under certain circumstances. It's red line that he may have lost it.
 
Kritchlow said:
But below blue line is okay under certain circumstances. It's red line that he may have lost it.
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Remember that Red Line is only really applicable when the good engine is at full power.

If you are only at 75-50% power on the good engine, you need to worry about stalling with asymetrical thrust more than a VMC rollover. Both will kill you, but avoiding/recovering from a stall in that situation isn't as simple as pulling the good engine back.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Remember that Red Line is only really applicable when the good engine is at full power.

If you are only at 75-50% power on the good engine, you need to worry about stalling with asymetrical thrust more than a VMC rollover. Both will kill you, but avoiding/recovering from a stall in that situation isn't as simple as pulling the good engine back.
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Yup.... exactly why I said "may have".
 
Radar Contact said:
This is the cliff note version of right engine failure shortly after takeoff.

Verify by pulling the right throttle to idle. Then feather the right prop and you can finish securing the engine.
Click to expand...

In more capable planes with autofeather, such as a King Air, the POH says to leave the throttle full forward so that the autofeathering mechanism can do its job. How difficult is it to make this transition to leave the throttle alone for these larger multi-engine aircraft after having drilled the above response for trainer level multiengine aircraft to the level of desired automaticity?
 
PPC1052 said:
In more capable planes with autofeather, such as a King Air, the POH says to leave the throttle full forward so that the autofeathering mechanism can do its job. How difficult is it to make this transition to leave the throttle alone for these larger multi-engine aircraft after having drilled the above response for trainer level multiengine aircraft to the level of desired automaticity?
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Easy. It would normally be several seconds before you pull a throttle back. It's truly not rushed.
Start with pitching for blue line and pulling gear up.
Then start at mixture and work left to prop and throttle--> everything forward.
Now determine dead engine. The easiest way imo is "dead foot dead engine". I can't speak for anyone else but my foot automatically stomps the correct pedal as a natural reaction to the yaw.
Now start the other direction--> verify (pull dead throttle, or not), feather, secure.
Most important is the entire time you are maintaining blue line (or better if at altitude).
 
PPC1052 said:
In more capable planes with autofeather, such as a King Air, the POH says to leave the throttle full forward so that the autofeathering mechanism can do its job. How difficult is it to make this transition to leave the throttle alone for these larger multi-engine aircraft after having drilled the above response for trainer level multiengine aircraft to the level of desired automaticity?
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Can't help on this one. 310's (and other variants of Twin Cessna's I've flown) don't have autofeather. I would think like anything else, lots of training should help drill in the correct response.
 
comanchepilot said:
Don't understand this one at all - he turned into the dead engine - on a right down wind - and appears to have totally bollocks up what should have been a non-event -
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It's a head scratcher for sure. I'd like to think that at 600' I'd fly straight ahead with what I described above gaining at least 1500 agl then start a nice controlled left turn back to the/an airport.
 
Kritchlow said:
Easy. It would normally be several seconds before you pull a throttle back. It's truly not rushed.
Start with pitching for blue line and pulling gear up.
Then start at mixture and work left to prop and throttle--> everything forward.
Now determine dead engine. The easiest way imo is "dead foot dead engine". I can't speak for anyone else but my foot automatically stomps the correct pedal as a natural reaction to the yaw.
Now start the other direction--> verify (pull dead throttle, or not), feather, secure.
Most important is the entire time you are maintaining blue line (or better if at altitude).
Click to expand...

Perfect...this is the drill. Exactly. Every multi-engine pilot should review and speak this drill in the pre-takeoff briefing and be poised to perform it before brake release. I might add that loss of directional control before rotation should provoke immediate closure of throttles, followed by aggressive braking. Or, if failure after rotation, close the throttles and land straight-ahead if sufficient runway remains (gear retraction is based on
having insufficient runway to return).
 
PPC1052 said:
In more capable planes with autofeather, such as a King Air, the POH says to leave the throttle full forward so that the autofeathering mechanism can do its job. How difficult is it to make this transition to leave the throttle alone for these larger multi-engine aircraft after having drilled the above response for trainer level multiengine aircraft to the level of desired automaticity?
Click to expand...
I went from a C-320 to a King Air. Not only do you leave the throttle forward so that the autofeather can do its job, you also don't identify the failed engine by using "dead foot, dead engine". The rudder bias system and the yaw damp can fool you. They train you to look at the gauges; just the opposite of what you do in a piston. But it isn't difficult to make the transition, at least is wasn't for me. You can't get so in love with one technique that you are unable or unwilling to switch to another one when you change airplanes.
 
Everskyward said:
I went from a C-320 to a King Air. Not only do you leave the throttle forward so that the autofeather can do its job, you also don't identify the failed engine by using "dead foot, dead engine". The rudder bias system and the yaw damp can fool you. They train you to look at the gauges; just the opposite of what you do in a piston. But it isn't difficult to make the transition, at least is wasn't for me. You can't get so in love with one technique that you are unable or unwilling to switch to another one when you change airplanes.
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While that's true about looking at gauges in certain airplains, I have yet to see a rudder bias system that can out yaw a failed engine, feathered or not.
 
Kritchlow said:
While that's true about looking at gauges in certain airplains, I have yet to see a rudder bias system that can out yaw a failed engine, feathered or not.
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It's not a prop, but you can do a V1 cut in a Hawker with your feet off the rudders. Not so much in the Lear or the Sovereign.
 
comanchepilot said:
the video of the last second of flight sure looked like a stall . . .
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It was a stall.

Someone on a BeechTalk posted a radar track of his flight that showed him drifting very close to the runway on the downwind which left him with a very tight downwind-base-final turn into the dead engine.

The load factor to maintain altitude in that turn would have driven the stall speed well above VMC while bleeding off airspeed at the same time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It was a stall.

Someone on a BeechTalk posted a radar track of his flight that showed him drifting very close to the runway on the downwind which left him with a very tight downwind-base-final turn into the dead engine.

The load factor to maintain altitude in that turn would have driven the stall speed well above VMC while bleeding off airspeed at the same time.
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I saw the radar playback and thought the same possibility myself.

Also with VG's, Vmc is lowered to pretty close to the stall speed (1g).
 
Everskyward said:
It's not a prop, but you can do a V1 cut in a Hawker with your feet off the rudders. Not so much in the Lear or the Sovereign.
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Okay, but can't really compare a nearly centerline thrust Hawker to a C310 or King Air.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, but can't really compare a nearly centerline thrust Hawker to a C310 or King Air.
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In any case, I was taught not to use "dead foot, dead engine" in King Air initial. They knew I was coming from a piston twin.
 
Everskyward said:
In any case, I was taught not to use "dead foot, dead engine" in King Air initial. They knew I was coming from a piston twin.
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And there is some validity to that school of thought imo.
For one thing, in the king air vs piston twins, the KA has two separate columns of engine gauges vs one gauge with two needles. That makes a world of difference when identifying the failed engine.
 
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