C172 versus Volvo SUV @ Northwest Regional

[jhausch]

Seems silly they can't stick one of these on that fence. I realize it's not the best spot, for a sign, but better than paint on the road...
http://www.tapconet.com/solar-led-division/

Maybe rumble strips that beat-out, "look for an airplane!" in morse code

Maybe a deep pothole or speed bump a bit further back with a bladder that, when compressed, pops up a stop sign temporarily..... (as in stop and look for an airplane, dude!)

 

[Velocity173]

I think they both made a mistake, the pilot by dragging it in, the driver by not stopping and scanning (as he admittedly knew he was supposed to). Don't know how the insurance companies will haggle it out but I dont see groundbreaking new law being written here.

Or a cherry-picker with the basket extended ? Oh the possibilities !

The part 77 standard is:

10 feet or the height of the highest mobile object that would normally traverse the road, whichever is greater, for a private road,

So, if Semis routinely drive on this road that serves a couple of hangars and private residences, the airport will indeed have to move the threshold back even further.

Just working off the numbers on their airnav entry and google maps, the threshold is displaced just enough to give a 20:1 slope for a 9ft object on the road to the edge of the runway safety area.

They have a 4.5deg VASI, that's what, 1:12 ? So 440ft from the runway he should have been at 36ft over the road, 1 degree low on the VASI would put him 27ft over over the road.

I can't get Martha Kings voice out of my head: red over red, you are dead

Exactly. No way he should have been that low if he was following the VASI. The runway being so narrow created the illusion of being high.

 

[weilke]

When I discussed this accident at lunch today with a veteran professional pilot who has flown there frequently but not recently, he commented that the runway was a bit tight from the north due to proximity of terrain and "stuff on the ground."

Maybe that's why they moved the threshold back towards the road.

I just read the real reason somewhere else. It's pretty wild and entirely non-aviation related .

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I just read the real reason somewhere else. It's pretty wild and entirely non-aviation related .

Linky???

 

[weilke]

Linky???

It'll make its way here :wink2: . Still trying to decide whether it's sad, reckless, funny or all of the above.

 

[ausrere]

It actually goes further when you are on railroad property, you are on sovereign soil. A regular cop cannot arrest you from the railroad tracks without the RRs permission.

This has to be a urban legend. I can think of at least five arrests I've made over my career on rail road property. A DWI on the tracks, a couple of drunks (why do drunks sleep on rail tracks!) and a couple of thiefs who tried to hide under a parked train car. Never once asked for permission, never once had a prosecutor refuse to take the case or even ask me if we got permission from anybody. There is even a state law authorizing any peace officer to arrest rail officials if they block a railroad crossing for more than 10 mins.

Maybe it's a state by state law. DPS commissions railroad police here, so they are state police officers and we had concurrent jurisdiction for everything but federal offenses.

 

[Morne]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Land long, no problem.

Really? Sloppy is OK if long? I used to wonder how folks with planes that can stop in 600' run out of pavement on half-mile and longer strips. This attitude explains it.

 

[SCCutler]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

17 has a significant downhill slope there; may have affected matters as well.

 

[Henning]

This has to be a urban legend. I can think of at least five arrests I've made over my career on rail road property. A DWI on the tracks, a couple of drunks (why do drunks sleep on rail tracks!) and a couple of thiefs who tried to hide under a parked train car. Never once asked for permission, never once had a prosecutor refuse to take the case or even ask me if we got permission from anybody. There is even a state law authorizing any peace officer to arrest rail officials if they block a railroad crossing for more than 10 mins.

Maybe it's a state by state law. DPS commissions railroad police here, so they are state police officers and we had concurrent jurisdiction for everything but federal offenses.

Nope, US law, your force most likely has an agreement with the RR in place. It's a pretty unique and obscure law in the US which comes with deeded sovereignty, like a foreign embassy in a way. Like I said, it's very limited in a practical day to day sense, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For example when I got the 12 pack from the package store in Utah, I didn't crack one for the 2 mile walk back to our siding until I was walking on the tracks, ergo he could observe me drinking a beer in the open walking in plain view of the road, but since I didn't open it until I got to the tracks, I had not committed an offense within State or Municipal jurisdiction so there wasn't a pursuit issue, nor crime against RR property and I was authorized, paid contractor working on the RR, not a thing he could do to me.

 

[ausrere]

Nope, US law, your force most likely has an agreement with the RR in place. It's a pretty unique and obscure law in the US which comes with deeded sovereignty, like a foreign embassy in a way. Like I said, it's very limited in a practical day to day sense, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For example when I got the 12 pack from the package store in Utah, I didn't crack one for the 2 mile walk back to our siding until I was walking on the tracks, ergo he could observe me drinking a beer in the open walking in plain view of the road, but since I didn't open it until I got to the tracks, I had not committed an offense within State or Municipal jurisdiction so there wasn't a pursuit issue, nor crime against RR property and I was authorized, paid contractor working on the RR, not a thing he could do to me.

If you have it, could you give me a cite? Specialized agencies and their jurisdictional limitations is an occupational hobby of sorts. I Googled, and I can find language in the federal statutes that give railroad officers state law enforcement authority on railroad property, but none that limit any other agencies authority on that same property. There's a pretty good article on Police Chief Magazines website, but it says nothing about limits.

 

[MadseasoN]

Exactly. No way he should have been that low if he was following the VASI. The runway being so narrow created the illusion of being high.

I'm betting that he wasn't used to landing on a runway with a displaced threshold.

I've seen conflicting stories about this being a public or private road. If it's a private road or a road on AP property then I'm going with the driver being at fault. If it's a public road then I'll have to blame the pilot for hitting the car.

 

[Henning]

If you have it, could you give me a cite? Specialized agencies and their jurisdictional limitations is an occupational hobby of sorts. I Googled, and I can find language in the federal statutes that give railroad officers state law enforcement authority on railroad property, but none that limit any other agencies authority on that same property. There's a pretty good article on Police Chief Magazines website, but it says nothing about limits.

It's a sovereignty issue as it was explained to me, same as the rules that prevent you from going into a foreign embassy and arresting someone, you only have the power that the owner of the property grants you. Sorry, I don't even know where to look for those laws and my google fu is weak.

 

[wabower]

You might also check the conflicting stories on whether the displaced threshold has been eliminated and the full length of the runway is now being used

I'm betting that he wasn't used to landing on a runway with a displaced threshold.

I've seen conflicting stories about this being a public or private road. If it's a private road or a road on AP property then I'm going with the driver being at fault. If it's a public road then I'll have to blame the pilot for hitting the car.

 

[callmesven]

With all these opinions and anger flying around you'd think someone by now would have blamed Obama.

 

[Henning]

With all these opinions and anger flying around you'd think someone by now would have blamed Obama.

Texas and an old airport... must be Bush's fault....

 

[denverpilot]

Yes, the pilot was low and flat, but that doesn't mean that hitting a car is his error.

Not going to let the pilot off quite that easily, even if he couldn't see the car. Here's why.

- If that road is a known problem, pilot must adjust approach path to keep that road in sight (steeper) or plan to touch down further down the runway so the road is cleared with a reasonable height margin.

- The above is driven by the standard measure of any pilot decision: Is the desired outcome of the maneuver (a safe landing) ever in doubt? If so, an immediate go-around is intrinsically demanded. Don't accept "I don't know if this is going to work out". Firewall it and pick a better approach where you can see that darn road.

My doubt of the outcome of the landing starts far enough back in that video, that a go-around would have missed the car.

The car isn't even in the frame and he's low. You see him try to fix it with pitch at the fence line which shows a thought process problem, maybe a fair one for a new solo student; he doesn't realize that any slower will increase his descent rate without adding power.

He's behind the power/airspeed curve, and pitching up makes his approach steeper, and shorter. You can't stretch a glide at that speed with pitch alone. You've got nothing to trade, airspeed-wise. The ASI and VSI are both going to drop.

I know he's a student. I know it's hard at that point in training. But too slow and too low is go-around territory. At least it's "cram in a handful of power" territory.

He may not have been able to see the car, but he knew the road was there and you just can't assume there is nothing on it.

My thoughts...

Overall fault: Car driver. Without question.

Accident prevention possible?: Yes. Pilot.

There's times things that happen aren't your fault as a pilot, but it's still fixable.

The "wildlife on runway" example is another similar circumstance. They're not going to take your license away for a deer darting in front, but if it did it far enough down the runway ahead that you can go around, you should save the plane.

That's just what a pilot must do.

 

[MachFly]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

I don't think the car driven can be blamed for any of this. Imagine you don't know anything about aviation and your peacefully driving your car. Then for some weird reason there is a stop sign, where do you look? Normally a stop sign is on an intersection so you look to make sure there are no other cars and continue, in this case it's just a stop sign. What does a normal person look for when approaching a stop sign on a straight road with no intersection? People? Deer? Dogs? Certainly not airplanes.
In addition it was not a normal roan sign, it looks like some guy just randomly spray painted it on the road because he had nothing better to do.


If someone is to blame then blame the guy who put the road there. Really wrong pace.

 

[CT4ME]

FWIW, the official website for the airport does not mention the displaced threshold, or show it on their airport diagram. Without getting into a p1$$1ng match over what aviation regulation was current, it's obvious that the threshold, and it's current status, shouldn't be in the purview of the driver. He/She was supposed to stop and yield to aircraft traffic.
Yes, the pilot was low... but low happens now and then at the end of a runway.

 

[denverpilot]

Someone pointed out that you have to enter the airport to get to that road. I will make the wild assumption that most folks know airplanes fly at airports and that there is signage that you're turning into an airport somewhere in this process.

 

[timwinters]

I'm betting that he wasn't used to landing on a runway with a displaced threshold.

It's my understanding that this is his home field. And, if it was, then he should have been adequately trained on the displaced threshold before he soloed.

IF it's still there.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

FWIW, the official website for the airport does not mention the displaced threshold, or show it on their airport diagram. Without getting into a p1$$1ng match over what aviation regulation was current, it's obvious that the threshold, and it's current status, shouldn't be in the purview of the driver. He/She was supposed to stop and yield to aircraft traffic.
Yes, the pilot was low... but low happens now and then at the end of a runway.

The website does mention a displaced threshold, twice.

• The displaced threshold bar is only 1' wide
• The displaced threshold arrows and markings are yellow

These are on the "For Pilots" tab under the "Airport Diagram" heading.


(PS, I'm still not saying the pilot was at fault.)

 

[MachFly]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Someone pointed out that you have to enter the airport to get to that road. I will make the wild assumption that most folks know airplanes fly at airports and that there is signage that you're turning into an airport somewhere in this process.

If that's the case then it's even more weird. You can't just let people who are not familiar with airport operations drive on airport property.

However in the video that Jakey posted the reports says that the airport does not own that road or any property around the airport.
Granted if a news reporter says something there is a high possibility of it being wrong.

 

[MachFly]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

I actually had a similar situation around half a year ago.
I was driving on a road that goes perpendicular to the runway and a landing cherokee flew by. I saw him at the last minute and braked avoiding a collision, it seemed like this left gear flew over my hood and bellow the roof line. He was way too low on that approach because he still had to clear the airport fence, localizer, some grass, and 800ft of displaced threshold. In this case even though there was no stop sign or anything that warns you of low aircraft I think both of us were to blame, me for having a crappy SA and him for screwing up the approach.

 

[bflynn]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Not going to let the pilot off quite that easily, even if he couldn't see the car. Here's why.

Who said anyone was letting the pilot off?

He was low.

He hit the car.

He should have been on the proper glide path where that could not have happened.

He should have taken extra care, knowing that there was a road there and rejected an approach that was that low.

The only point I was trying to make is that sitting in the left seat of an airplane on final, you physically cannot see down and to the right. If it's impossible, it's hardly fair to blame the pilot for it.

 

[FlySince9]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Hi all... Haven't been around in a while, but here's my 2 cents... Don't know the airport...Never been there, but maybe the Runway markings play a role in this issue, at this airport...

RY NRS SHORTER & NARROWER THAN STD. NSTD DSPLCD THLD ONLY 1 FT BAR NO ARROWS. DSPLCD THLD MKGS YELLOW.

And / OR the sloping ground leading up to the runway + the fence may require more displacement of the threshold, which would help to keep pilots on a better flight path over the obstacles.

For local pilots who know the hazards... no problem. For visitors, however, markings and design play a role in safe operations... Again... My 2 cents...

 

[SCCutler]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

I don't think the car driven can be blamed for any of this. Imagine you don't know anything about aviation and your peacefully driving your car.

...

You can imagine that hypothetical for an interesting (and valid) scenario, but in this instance, the driver knows the place well, lives about three minutes east of there and goes to the restaurant at the field often.

 

[Geico266]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Yes, the pilot was low and flat, but that doesn't mean that hitting a car is his error.

In this particular airport, cars are required to give way to airplanes. That road was added as a shortcut to neighbors who are required to stop and look for airplanes. The SUV blew through the stop sign and never looked for traffic.

So we can agree that the pilot was low and should have gone around, but I can't fault him for hitting something that isn't supposed to be there and that he probably couldn't see.

Pilots are also required to land beyond the displaced threshold. No cars stop at those non traditional markings.

This was pilot error.

 

[Geico266]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Yep, planes arnt dangerous, STUPID, however is deadly.


Those stop signs were a little weak though IMHO

Very weak, as in "Let's paint "Stop" on the ground so we won't have any liability if a car gets hit by a knuckle head pilot land short of the threashold" weak.

 

[Geico266]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

You can imagine that hypothetical for an interesting (and valid) scenario, but in this instance, the driver knows the place well, lives about three minutes east of there and goes to the restaurant at the field often.

Ouch. "Familiarity breeds contempt".


I'll bet ya a beer he will stop and look both ways next time.



Or next time take the Beemer and put the top down.

 

[timwinters]

It appears to me as if a certain Texas student pilot and SUV driver both need a dose of what an Ohio judge is passing out these days!

CLEVELAND (AP) - A woman caught on camera driving on a sidewalk to avoid a Cleveland school bus that was unloading children will have to stand at an intersection wearing a sign warning about idiots.

Court records show a Cleveland Municipal Court judge on Monday ordered 32-year-old Shena Hardin to stand at an intersection for two days next week. She will have to wear a sign saying: "Only an idiot drives on the sidewalk to avoid a school bus."

The judge ordered her to wear the sign from 7:45 a.m. to 8:45 a.m. both days.

Hardin's license was suspended for 30 days and she was ordered to pay $250 in court costs.

 

[Geico266]

The website does mention a displaced threshold, twice.

• The displaced threshold bar is only 1' wide
• The displaced threshold arrows and markings are yellow

These are on the "For Pilots" tab under the "Airport Diagram" heading.


(PS, I'm still not saying the pilot was at fault.)

I will say it. The pilot was way too low on his approach, landed short of the displaced threshold and hit a car.

 

[timwinters]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

For local pilots who know the hazards... no problem. For visitors, however, markings and design play a role in safe operations... Again... My 2 cents...

Exactly...and he was a local (student) pilot. At least it's my understanding that he was returning "home" from his solo cross country.

 

[Steve Foley]

I didn't crack one for the 2 mile walk back to our siding until I was walking on the tracks, ergo he could observe me drinking a beer in the open walking in plain view of the road, but since I didn't open it until I got to the tracks, I had not committed an offense within State or Municipal jurisdiction so there wasn't a pursuit issue, nor crime against RR property and I was authorized, paid contractor working on the RR, not a thing he could do to me.

You were on private property, so you broke no law. This has nothing to do with sovereignty.

 

[wsuffa]

FWIW, the official website for the airport does not mention the displaced threshold, or show it on their airport diagram. Without getting into a p1$$1ng match over what aviation regulation was current, it's obvious that the threshold, and it's current status, shouldn't be in the purview of the driver. He/She was supposed to stop and yield to aircraft traffic.
Yes, the pilot was low... but low happens now and then at the end of a runway.

The airport website is not regulatory. That said, the displaced threshold IS contained in the A/FD (green book), which notes a DT of 400' for 17 and 320' for 35. So there is, in fact, a displaced threshold and that fact is published in current FAA documents.

RWY 17–35: H3500X40 (ASPH) S–8 MIRL L–17C, A
RWY 17: VASI(V2R)—GA 4.5°. Thld dsplcd 400. Hill. RWY 35: VASI(V2L)—GA 5.25° Thld dsplcd 320. Trees.

AIRPORT REMARKS: Attended Mon–Sat 1500–2300Z‡. Self serve fuel avbl. Pilots are requested to call 817–430–1905 30 minutes prior to arrival for field conditions. Due to rwy width and heavy local traffic, pilots are advised to ctc arpt prior to landing. Landing fee for non-based acft. Non–based flight schools must obtain written prior permission. The following operations are prohibited: ultralights, powered parachutes, sailplanes, gliders, auto–gyros, skydiving, AG–operations, balloons, airships and non–certified acft. All helicopter ops are prohibited unless a current letter of authorization is on file at the arpt office which includes an FAA approved and an FAA endorsed flight pattern as well as a written approval form the arpt management. Pilots must also call 817–430–1905 to obtain approval prior to any helicopter flight ops to and from the arpt rwys. Rwy 17 rwy numbers shorter and narrower than std. NSTD dsplcd thld only 1 bar. Dsplcd thld markings yellow. Rwy 35 rwy numbers shorter and narrower than std. NSTD dsplcd thld only 1 bar no arrows. Dsplcd thld markings yellow.

 

[weilke]

The airport website is not regulatory. That said, the displaced threshold IS contained in the A/FD (green book), which notes a DT of 400' for 17 and 320' for 35. So there is, in fact, a displaced threshold and that fact is published in current FAA documents.

Except that the markings have been moved back to within 50ft of the end of the runway sometime earlier this year. Add to that the local teaching of routine no-flap landings and the distribution of dumbassery between pilot, driver, flight school and airport starts to shift a bit.

I learned to fly gliders at an field with an elevated footpath acrosss the approach end of the runway (old railroad ROW). While we did have a sign 'watch for aircraft' that we put up on the footpath every morning, everyone knew to treat the path as if it was a row of trees.

 

[wsuffa]

Except that the markings have been moved back to within 50ft of the end of the runway sometime earlier this year. Add to that the local teaching of routine no-flap landings and the distribution of dumbassery between pilot, driver, flight school and airport starts to shift a bit.

Agree that changes by airport that are not in the AFD make the situation a bit more difficult. That said, if the FAA wants to hang the pilot/CFI, it'll start with "did you review all available information, including the AFD, prior to flight..."

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I'm betting that he wasn't used to landing on a runway with a displaced threshold.

I've seen conflicting stories about this being a public or private road. If it's a private road or a road on AP property then I'm going with the driver being at fault. If it's a public road then I'll have to blame the pilot for hitting the car.

If you look at the "News" video, you will see that lines marking a movement area are painted across the road. That would suggest that it is not a typical public road. Also, the road only goes to the hangers / buildings (perhaps a house?) on the other side of the runway.

 

[Henning]

Agree that changes by airport that are not in the AFD make the situation a bit more difficult. That said, if the FAA wants to hang the pilot/CFI, it'll start with "did you review all available information, including the AFD, prior to flight..."

The FAA does not come after student pilots for mistakes, they consider mistakes including ones that end in crashes as part of the learning environment.

 

[wabower]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Nope, negligence by driver, pilot was where he was supposed to be and doing exactly what he was supposed to do.

Local pilots who fly at that airport and use the school that owned the accident plane report that DT has been moved to within ~100' of runway end. Runway is lower than roadway. Students at the flight school are taught no-flap landings as standard. Students at the flight school must touch down no later than even with tetrahedron or go around.

Pilots are also required to land beyond the displaced threshold. No cars stop at those non traditional markings.

This was pilot error.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

I don't think the car driven can be blamed for any of this. Imagine you don't know anything about aviation and your peacefully driving your car. Then for some weird reason there is a stop sign, where do you look? Normally a stop sign is on an intersection so you look to make sure there are no other cars and continue, in this case it's just a stop sign. What does a normal person look for when approaching a stop sign on a straight road with no intersection? People? Deer? Dogs? Certainly not airplanes.
In addition it was not a normal roan sign, it looks like some guy just randomly spray painted it on the road because he had nothing better to do.


If someone is to blame then blame the guy who put the road there. Really wrong pace.

In the filmed interview, they claim to be familiar with the airport procedures.