C172 versus Volvo SUV @ Northwest Regional

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by AggieMike88, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. Morne

    Morne Line Up and Wait

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    I learned at a field with a road near one end of the runway. There are "goal posts" there that help remind the pilot to fly a steep enough approach so that a passing truck doesn't suck them down prematurely.

    Based on the video the SUV never even slowed down. No tail lights, no dipping of the vehicle's nose - they rolled it on through. Just my opinion, but I blame them.

    Had the SUV not been there the last second of power addition probably would have resulted in a landing nobody would've though twice about. The windsock showed basically no wind, or at most varying light winds, and runway 17 lacks the trees at the approach end that runway 35 has. No flap landings usually are a bit shallower, so what?

    Ideally, the pilot would've flown a better approach. But flying a somewhat low approach is not a crime. The SUV driver rolling the stop and not looking for a plane though...
     
  2. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes, the SUV rolled right through a stop sign he has been at many times before. The pilot was very low on approach, but that is something we expect of student pilots, and why the stop sign on the road is there. This is 100% the SUV fault. He's going to by buying a lot of plane repairs soon(or the insurance will be).
     
  3. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why did you pull out in front of an airplane?

    "We didn't PULLL out in front of an AIRPLANE!!!"

    "Yes you did"

    "Yes you did"

    LOL!

    The approach could have been better, I'm having a hard time blaming it on the pilot though.
     
  4. EppyGA

    EppyGA Touchdown! Greaser!

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    When the lady in the car is asked. "why did you pull out in front of an airplane?" she replied "we didn't pull out in front of an airplane." She needs a new set of glasses.
     
  5. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route

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    The 172 clearly ran the light. :)
     
  6. Funkeruski

    Funkeruski Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Pilot's fault. He was going to land on the displaced threshold if not in the grass. Dumbass.
     
  7. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You know this how? Looked to me like he was about to go around.
     
  8. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nope, he was definitely planning to fly the length of the runway to practice maintaining centerline in landing attitude. No question about it. Seen it a jillion times, can spot it anywhere.

     
  9. RV10flyer

    RV10flyer Pattern Altitude

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    My instructor taught the following: Full flap landings from the start, not to try to land on the numbers with normal length runway, not to have family videoing until way after my ticket, always be prepared to go around early vs later and not to get behind the power curve until close to touching down over the runway. As an initial solo xc pilot he did not need the distractions. He just had one vehicle pass in front of him and his family had the camera rolling. He was PIC and should have not been so low and slow. You can see him sinking big time before impact and with that ROD he would have barely made it to the pavement let alone the threshhold. If he had been using full flaps he would have been at a lower deck angle and might have possibly been able to see the vehicle better. That little bit of tailwind that hit him before the windsock did not help things either. If you can't see your intended touchdown point, get the seat adjusted or get a cushion. I had a 172 pull out in front of me on one my first family trips in my -10 about 300' in front of me and I was so glad for the training. It appears to be the pilot, instructor and suv drivers fault. Glad everyone is ok.
     
  10. John221us

    John221us En-Route

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    The plane was low, but could have applied power and touched down further down. The car pulled out in front of an airplane, for sure. The plane was on the centerline. The car should not have been there.
     
  11. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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    News5 has the story on now, they are running it on the 11 news. Commentary indicating that the SUV drove DIRECTLY in front of the plane. They insinuate that it was the SUV fault but didn't come out and say it.

    Any airport environment I've ever been on in the world, the aircraft traffic always, always, has the right of way unless the vehicle is emer or is stopped with yellow caution lights flashing. Predicting what the plane would do in the future is for people way smarter than me. My crystal ball doesn't work that well. No doubt he was low on approach, no doubt his deck angle was too shallow, but he could have floated it down the displaced all the way to the threshold with a small amount of power. The land below the approach belongs to the plane at all times, from 1mm above the surface up to the TPA.
     
  12. RV10flyer

    RV10flyer Pattern Altitude

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    If it would have been another plane as in my case or a deer would we as PIC blame them too? The suv had two directions to escape...stop or go really fast. The plane had many directions to move and he chose down, the wrong one. A lightly loaded 172 with no flaps has no problem arresting a descent. I don't trust automobile drivers with all of their distractions in my 7000 lb truck and sure as heck wouldn't trust them in my 2700 lb aluminum plane. His decision-making was very good in deciding to exit the hobby. It is very dangerous and has very little room for error. Always fly the plane.
     
  13. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Student pilots don't do things perfectly everytime, that's why they're still students. The way the story read he never stopped the Volvo.
     
  14. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Exactly, regardless of what the student was doing, the fault belongs to the car driver.
     
  15. HighFlyingA380

    HighFlyingA380 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I absolutely agree. Wasn't blaming the pilot. Those were just some basic observations made from very preliminary information. Now with the video, it's clear that the driver is at fault. In his previous interview, he claimed he saw the plane coming, but in the aftermath video, and later interviews, they both claim they didn't see it. They're obviously trying to pass the blame.

    I just think it's sad that the student is quitting flying. Yet one more thing to add to the list of ways the general public is ruining GA. Never thought they'd start running into airplanes on final with cars, tho.
     
  16. Jakey

    Jakey Filing Flight Plan

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  17. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

    Way too low. Counting on the car to stop at unconventional stop signs painted on the ground is not a good plan. The plane was way too low and was coming up short on the runway. He know the video was recording him and it was too focused on "hitting the numbers" than him looking for cars also.

    His wife was there to record his first solo landing?
     
  18. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

    Looks to me like he realized he was going to be short using the approach angle he was using so he was going around but couldn't because the car got in the way.
     
  19. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

    The pilot does not mention a go around. He was too focused on the runway to even seen traffic. He was definitely too short on that approach.

    Land long, no problem. Pilot error.
     
  20. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
  21. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

    Yeppers, double post.
     
  22. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

    What part of right of way is so tough to understand?
     
  23. DrMack

    DrMack Line Up and Wait

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    No landing light. Student says he's not going to finish his training. A couple years ago a Warrior landed on a Cessna on his takeoff roll on that very spot with both pilots claiming they did not see each other (apparently CTAF announcements at 52F are a luxury option).
     
  24. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I think this is the image Tim is referring too

    [​IMG]

    And you're not far off the mark about the CTAF calls. Many good pilots are at 52F. But enough of them at the other end so spectrum to make me be ultra-vigilant when operating there.
     

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  25. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Deer get a pass if they can prove they can't read.

     
  26. seand

    seand Pre-Flight

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    There are some places where if you are in an auto accident as a foreign tourist it is automatically your fault regardless of the circumstances since the accident wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been there. I didn't expect that kind of logic would apply in the US though.

    The pilot just barely cleared the 4 foot fence that sits 500 feet from the displaced threshold. That CFI is going to have a rough day, but at least everyone survived... another foot lower and that would have been questionable.
     
  27. lr60plt

    lr60plt Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Regardless of who had the right of way....I still think its the pilots fault. If things were done even remotely correctly there could of been a tractor trailer there that he could of avoided. I think the FAA will come to the same conclusion.

    Every 6 months we go to Flight Safety for 135 recurrent....and every 6 months they have some form of vehicle pull out onto the runway (food truck, firetruck...etc)....have't seen anyone hit it yet.
     
  28. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not sure about the fence clearance due to telephoto distortion. As to the displaced threshold, my response is "get a grip." Come to my airport today and we'll count the tire marks on the pavement that are short of the DT. If there are more than 40, you buy lunch. If less, I'll buy it.

     
  29. Morne

    Morne Line Up and Wait

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    I cannot believe there are people on here blaming the pilot. This aviation thing has got to be the least welcoming, most hostile group of old codgers on the planet. Back when I got into ham radio if the elmers had behaved like you guys I never would've gotten my ticket.

    General Aviation is on life support at best. Your catcalls that misplace blame are twisting the knife. If you really hate flying that much then go away.

    Sure, this was a 172 that could've gone steeper. But what about all those canard-flyers who have no flaps and fly unusually flat approaches? Would you still be blaming the pilot if the SUV with "aviation enthusiasts" onboard had barreled into a Long-EZ instead?

    People are claiming he was "going to land short of the threshold." How do you know? Can I borrow your crystal ball for some lottery numbers? He added power as he got low. I once landed at an airport, for the 1st time there, that had a 700+' displaced threshold. I got down into ground effect and added a nip of power, floating it along until I saw the threshold before landing. Did I deserve an SUV impact? Tell me about all 100% of your flawless approaches.

    Wildlife on the runway is one thing, stuff happens. Other aircraft in the pattern not making CTAF position announcements are another thing. But a ground vehicle barreling through a stop sign without looking for a plane that they did NOT have to crane their necks to see is inexcusable.

    The sign is there for a reason, this is it.

    I am sad the student isn't continuing his training. One more potential supporter down the drain.
     
  30. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Touchdown! Greaser!

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  31. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Touchdown! Greaser!

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    In this raw unedited video, at 5 seconds in you can see the Volvo driving onto airport property on the far left... there's no way he got from that point to in front of the airplane at point of impact and had time to stop and do a careful check both ways before proceeding.

    http://www.wfaa.com/video?id=177200391&sec=1230556&ref=rcvidmod
     
  32. Steve Foley

    Steve Foley Pattern Altitude

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    From the story:

    So it appears the airplane hit a car that was not on airport property.
     
  33. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Another way to look at this:

    - Is Kelly Drive a public roadway ? If yes, that car had any right to be there.

    - The displaced threshold is there to provide a 20:1 slope towards the primary surface of the runway. The primary surface extends 250ft beyond the (displaced) threshold. The road is 430ft from the threshold, even granting the student pilot the full 250ft for the primary surface, he should have been at least 9ft, not 4ft.



    From the planes perspective, the car approached from below and to the right, a pilot sitting on the left side of the plane may not have been able to see the the car until right before the impact.

    The way it looks to me, the student was either taught to fly too low of an approach or he flew an approach different from what the one he was taught.

    Reminds me a bit of the video of the C160 that bounced of the perimeter road in germany.
     
  34. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The performance standards for a part 135 qualified commercial pilot are different from those applicable to a solo student-pilot.
     
  35. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Are you suggesting that a Volvo driver felt that he was entitled???

    :stirpot:

    :popcorn:
     
  36. Morne

    Morne Line Up and Wait

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    Are you SERIOUS?

    So if I come to a PUBLIC ROADWAY that has a railroad crossing marked with just a sign, not with the lights and bars (BTW, there is just such a crossing on my way to my airport), and I roll through that crossing and get hit you are going to blame the TRAIN????? After all, me and my pickup have the RIGHT to be there, right?

    How much have you had to drink before posting this? You either had too much booze or too little coffee.
     
  37. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

    OK. I had to shut it off when the "pilot" started talking about "life is short and you have to realize what is important..."

    Effing morons in the car, effing moron in the cockpit. You can't fix stupid.

    The video shows the standard hold short markings across the taxiway in addition to the word "Stop" painted on the pavement.
     
  38. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    This is going to be a fun one for the lawyers to be sure. There are several different type of fault, one of which will be the legal one. Another is the operational error that caused a pilot to put himself in a situation where he could be hit by an inattentive driver. The pilot was doing a pretty lousy landing from what we can see. He should not have been that low at all. His CFI is going to also have some fault on him for most likely a training deficiency of the student. Then there is the people who let a road be built that freakin' close to an active runway where anyone could drive on it! I see lots of blame to go around for a lot of people in this situation. But the bottom line is that no one was seriously hurt. So that is the good news.
     
  39. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It looks like you didn't gather all the pertinent information about your airport of intended landing then.

    The idea of a displaced threshold is that there are obstructions in the approach path that are beyond control of the airport. This could be a roadway (like in this case), a flood-control dyke (e.g. at KDVL Rwy 3 ) or a tugboat (e.g. at Burke Lakefront in Cleveland ). As you may not be able to see and avoid that obstruction, the airport had to put in a displaced threshold. You fly the final approach towards the displaced threshold, not the end of the paved surface. Yes, you were wrong, had you snagged the top wire of a fence, it would have been your fault.



    The displaced threshold is there for a reason, this is it.

    He is not the first student to wreck a plane during training. I am glad nobody got seriously hurt. Maybe after review of everything that contributed to the crash and some additional laps around the pattern with a different instructor, the student will get 'back on the horse' and continue his training. Students are not perfect, once in a while metal gets bent.
     
  40. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There are specific rules, signage and laws that define the right of way at railroad crossings (iirc while you are on the crossing, you are on 'private property' owned by the railroad, not a 'public roadway') There is a regular POAer whose job is to investigate on behalf of the railroads when 'trespassers' get creamed by trains, he may be able to contribute the specifics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012