C172 and IFR question

[peytont]

I'm part owner of a 172K. There are 4 other partners including me. Hardly any of the other partners fly. It's a cheap way to fly. It has a basic VFR panel. I want my IFR certification. I've talked with the local avionics shop and was told $12K to upgrade the panel for IFR flight. Only 3 of the 5 members want to upgrade. Here are my questions/options:

1. Should I sell my share and buy into a plane that already has IFR panel?

2. Should I push the 2 other members and myself to upgrade the panel without the backing of all the members?

3. Should I rent an IFR equipped plane to get my certification and then sell my share?

Looking for some guidance.

 

[PBristolJr]

First question will always be "What is your mission?"
If you plan on flying XC's and using the IR (which is highly recommended) then why not get out of the 172 and get into something faster with IFR equip

 

[flyingron]

I agree with PBristolJr. The next question is why is your plane not IFR? I've not seen too many 172's that couldn't be technically flown IFR even though having a single NAVCOM and some VFR supplemental NAV isn't an ideal IFR platform, it's good enough often to get your IFR rating.

 

[Ghery]

What sort of upgrades in the shop talking about? $12k sounds a bit high if all you want is /A capability. /G isn't necessary. Nice, but not necessary. When I was working on my IR the Arrow was (and still is) /U (no DME), the 182 was (and still is) /A and the 172 I did the ride in is /G. Each has its limitations with the 172 having the least. While you can legally get by with a single Nav/Com radio a second Nav is going to reduce your workload. Adding DME is good as it adds approaches to your abilities. Kind of hard to fly a DME arc without one (well, GPS would substitute, but...). And the 172 I fly has a Garmin 430W and DME. Frankly, I like flying the DME arc with DME better (with the 430W telling me when to turn off the arc ).

 

[bnt83]

What sort of upgrades in the shop talking about? $12k sounds a bit high if all you want is /A capability. /G isn't necessary. Nice, but not necessary. When I was working on my IR the Arrow was (and still is) /U (no DME), the 182 was (and still is) /A and the 172 I did the ride in is /G. Each has its limitations with the 172 having the least. While you can legally get by with a single Nav/Com radio a second Nav is going to reduce your workload. Adding DME is good as it adds approaches to your abilities. Kind of hard to fly a DME arc without one (well, GPS would substitute, but...). And the 172 I fly has a Garmin 430W and DME. Frankly, I like flying the DME arc with DME better (with the 430W telling me when to turn off the arc ).

Something tells me its not the $12k, it the members that don't really want to do anything themselves.

 

[peytont]

First question will always be "What is your mission?"
If you plan on flying XC's and using the IR (which is highly recommended) then why not get out of the 172 and get into something faster with IFR equip

My mission is flying to Carrizo (KCZT) and Freer (T19) once or twice a month (2hr one way). I've been shut down this weekend and last due to low ceilings, forecasted on the return flight. So I'm already fed up with the VFR limitations. Once or twice a year I might fly to Houma, LA (4hr one way). That's about it.

I asked my avionics shop what's the minimum equipment to safely fly with my two kids and that's the 12K response. The price includes a 430, DME and repair of the existing VOR.

 

[ClimbnSink]

My mission is flying to Carrizo (KCZT) and Freer (T19) once or twice a month (2hr one way). I've been shut down this weekend and last due to low ceilings, forecasted on the return flight. So I'm already fed up with the VFR limitations. Once or twice a year I might fly to Houma, LA (4hr one way). That's about it.

I asked my avionics shop what's the minimum equipment to safely fly with my two kids and that's the 12K response. The price includes a 430, DME and repair of the existing VOR.

That is part of your problem. Reality either find another plane or bite the bullet and install everything on your dime. Which might be cheaper then switching planes. No way the partners should pay for a 430 they don't want.

 

[bnt83]

My mission is flying to Carrizo (KCZT) and Freer (T19) once or twice a month (2hr one way). I've been shut down this weekend and last due to low ceilings, forecasted on the return flight. So I'm already fed up with the VFR limitations. Once or twice a year I might fly to Houma, LA (4hr one way). That's about it.

I asked my avionics shop what's the minimum equipment to safely fly with my two kids and that's the 12K response. The price includes a 430, DME and repair of the existing VOR.

I'm guessing (hoping) that would include a fresh transponder w/encoder and static system inspections (FAR 91.411 & 91.413). Those run anywhere from $175ish to $400ish themselves.

Does that include an external CDI for the 430?

 

[peytont]

I'm guessing (hoping) that would include a fresh transponder w/encoder and static system inspections (FAR 91.411 & 91.413). Those run anywhere from $175ish to $400ish themselves.

Does that include an external CDI for the 430?

Not a clue? One problem is I have no idea what I need and what I don't. Should I just forge ahead with a repaired VOR and a GPS radio (which we already have)?

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm pretty sure the other two members won't mind if the three who want it go ahead and pay for it themselves. Few folks ever turn down free upgrades.

 

[Palmpilot]

Not a clue? One problem is I have no idea what I need and what I don't. Should I just forge ahead with a repaired VOR and a GPS radio (which we already have)?

Is the existing GPS IFR-certified, and does it have a current database? If not, then I don't think you would be able to use it to get your rating.

The VOR receivers are enough equipment to fly IFR legally, if you have the required inspections done, e.g., static system check, altimeter check, etc. You can do the required accuracy check on the VOR receivers yourself. Does either of the VOR receivers have glideslope capability? You might have to have that in order to be able to fly enough different types of approach for the IFR checkride. (However, I'm not totally up to date on the current IFR practical test standard.)

 

[flyingron]

M
I asked my avionics shop what's the minimum equipment to safely fly with my two kids and that's the 12K response. The price includes a 430, DME and repair of the existing VOR.

What a load of crap. Why on earth would you put add a DME in this age, especially with a IFR GPS. I've not hardly turned on my DME since I put the GPS in my plane.

 

[stratobee]

What Ron said. You rarely need DME anymore. As long as the GPS is IFR certified and the database is "current", which, from my understanding, doesn't mean it has to be the latest, you're good to go. You can get an old Garmin 300XL for about $1K.

You do need a DME if your alternative has a non-precision approach that requires it, though.

 

[BillTIZ]

What a load of crap. Why on earth would you put add a DME in this age, especially with a IFR GPS. I've not hardly turned on my DME since I put the GPS in my plane.

Depending on the IFR gps, you still may need a DME.
Granted with the 430, not so much. The 430 should work fine in most cases.

If you install a non-percision gps, then you still need a DME for some approaches. A KLN 89 is approved for Enroute and gps non percision approaches. But you cannot execute an ILS/DME approach. That is a precision approach and not in the KLN 89/94 database. You cannot fly the ILS to Rwy12L at VGT or ILS Rwy 1L at LAS as the DME for both are on the ILS freq. the ILS 25L at LAS is flyable as the DME is from the LAS VORTAC which is in the KLN 89/94.

Not mentioned is a basic heading hold autopilot. I would not want to fly single pilot IFR without an autopilot. Let alone with 2 small kids in the plane.

 

[Rwsavory]

On long flights I turn on my DME for 2 minutes to see if it still works. That's all I use it for. Don't bother getting one unless it's free, and then I'd think long and hard about it. Get a used IFR cert GPS.

 

[jordane93]

your allowed to use a 430W in lieu of dme/adf during approaches? i thought you could only use it as a secondary instrument and you still need the raw data as your primary

 

[Palmpilot]

... As long as the GPS is IFR certified and the database is "current", which, from my understanding, doesn't mean it has to be the latest, you're good to go...

Whether the database has to be current depends on what it says in the AFM supplement for the particular GPS. It also depends on whether the date of issuance of the approach chart is earlier than the date of the database, and whether the enroute fixes to be used are correct in the database. I've come to the conclusion that checking all that stuff is too much hassle to be practical.

 

[Palmpilot]

your allowed to use a 430W in lieu of dme/adf during approaches? i thought you could only use it as a secondary instrument and you still need the raw data as your primary

According to the AIM, you can't substitute GPS for the final approach course guidance, but you can use it to identify fixes along the approach course, and you can use if for the missed approach.

 

[flyingron]

If you install a non-percision gps, then you still need a DME for some approaches. A KLN 89 is approved for Enroute and gps non percision approaches. But you cannot execute an ILS/DME approach. That is a precision approach and not in the KLN 89/94 database. You cannot fly the ILS to Rwy12L at VGT or ILS Rwy 1L at LAS as the DME for both are on the ILS freq. the ILS 25L at LAS is flyable as the DME is from the LAS VORTAC which is in the KLN 89/94.

Excuse me, but why on earth not? The final course is not determined by DME, an IFR Enroute/Terminal GPS is all you need to substitute for DME in most cases.

The only issue would be that you can't use such an approach with this equipment as the filed ALTERNATE. But nothing operationally prohibits you from flying it.

 

[denverpilot]

your allowed to use a 430W in lieu of dme/adf during approaches? i thought you could only use it as a secondary instrument and you still need the raw data as your primary

Nope. It can be used. See footnotes on alternates.

 

[flyingron]

Nope. It can be used. See footnotes on alternates.

A WAAS box on the other hand has precious few of these footnotes.

 

[denverpilot]

A WAAS box on the other hand has precious few of these footnotes.

'Tis true. 'Tis true.

 

[rbridges]

I'm pretty sure the other two members won't mind if the three who want it go ahead and pay for it themselves. Few folks ever turn down free upgrades.

yeah, and you'd be getting a 430 and other stuff for $4k which is a good deal. Just take the data card out when the non-paying members fly.

What a load of crap. Why on earth would you put add a DME in this age, especially with a IFR GPS. I've not hardly turned on my DME since I put the GPS in my plane.

Agreed. I used it for training. I talked with my avionics guy to take it out, but I didn't want to leave a hole in my panel.

 

[Palmpilot]

Originally Posted by flyingron
What a load of crap. Why on earth would you put add a DME in this age, especially with a IFR GPS. I've not hardly turned on my DME since I put the GPS in my plane.

Agreed. I used it for training. I talked with my avionics guy to take it out, but I didn't want to leave a hole in my panel.

If I owned a plane, I don't think I would ever take working avionics out, as long as there was room for it. The engineer in me likes having backups.

 

[nddons]

I'm pretty sure the other two members won't mind if the three who want it go ahead and pay for it themselves. Few folks ever turn down free upgrades.

Maybe they would pony up if the alternative is to sell his interest back to the partnership.

 

[nddons]

your allowed to use a 430W in lieu of dme/adf during approaches? i thought you could only use it as a secondary instrument and you still need the raw data as your primary

Nope. I've never seen a true DME, and earned my IR 3 years ago.

 

[BillTIZ]

Excuse me, but why on earth not? The final course is not determined by DME, an IFR Enroute/Terminal GPS is all you need to substitute for DME in most cases.

The only issue would be that you can't use such an approach with this equipment as the filed ALTERNATE. But nothing operationally prohibits you from flying it.

A 430 or 430W you can, the 430 database includes ILS and ILS DME approaches and be 430 includes the tuning for VOR ILS and LOC freqs.

The KLN 89/94 is a "NON PERCISION" gps for terminal mode, no VOR/LOC/ILS receiver. You will not find a ILS/DME approach in the KLN data base.

The LAS Rwy 25 L ILS/DME can be flown with a VOR reciever and the DME is based on the LAS VORTAC which is in the KLN data base. The LAS Rwy 1L ILS/DME has the DME on the ILS freq, not the VORTAC. The DME antenna location for the approach is not in the database. You will not be able to complete that approach without a seperate DME reciever tuned to the LOC freq.

 

[flyingron]

The KLN 89/94 is a "NON PERCISION" gps for terminal mode, no VOR/LOC/ILS receiver. You will not find a ILS/DME approach in the KLN data base.'
[/QOUTE]
The above is pure drivel. There's no such thing as "precision terminal mode." Precision applies to APPROACH not TERMINAL. Further, there's no requirement that a ILS/DME approach (for that matter ANY APPROACH) be present in a database to use DME substitution

The LAS Rwy 25 L ILS/DME can be flown with a VOR reciever and the DME is based on the LAS VORTAC which is in the KLN data base. The LAS Rwy 1L ILS/DME has the DME on the ILS freq, not the VORTAC. The DME antenna location for the approach is not in the database. You will not be able to complete that approach without a seperate DME reciever tuned to the LOC freq.

First off, there is no SUCH approach at KLAS. The only ILS/DME is the ILS or LOC/DME 1L. For that approach, yes the DMEs are off the ILS, but as long as the end of the RUNWAY or any of the intersections are in the database, you can compute anything you need to fly that approach.

 

[BillTIZ]

Ron, you are correct. DME is not required for the Rwy 25L ILS, crossing radials can be used. But I've always set up the Gps to the VORTAC and used the DME, a lot easier.

The data you need for the Rwy 1 approach to compute your distances is not loaded in the KLN database. DME required, and the antenna location is not in the database to substitute the gps for DME on that approach.

ILS approaches are not loaded in the KLN 89 / 94 database.

Also look at the VGT ILS Rwy 12L. Distance is on the LOC freq, and it is not in the KLN database.

 

[flyingron]

Is the end of the runway in the database? You don't need the DME transmitter location if you can compute it from some other valid fix.

 

[ChrisK]

[...]as long as the end of the RUNWAY or any of the intersections are in the database, you can compute anything you need to fly that approach.

So AC 90-108 lets you use an appropriate GPS as a DME substitute as long as you can positively locate any fix on the approach course? Is that the right reference? I'd think for the 1L approach you'd need to be able to identify I-CUL. I agree with you that it is fairly trivial to calculate the distance from any identified fix on the final approach course, but the ink is way too wet on my ticket to want to make that assumption without a more plain English interpretation.

 

[flyingron]

That is my understanding. I've never really had to put it into practice as I'm flying a 480 and have a DME (albeit one I never turn on since I got the GPS).

 

[ClimbnSink]

Maybe they would pony up if the alternative is to sell his interest back to the partnership.

Ohh financial extortion, remind us never to partner in an airplane with you. Besides I bet buying the share would be equivalent or less then the upgrades. Cheaper to be rid of people like you.

 

[ChemGuy]

What does your partnership agreement say about upgrades? In ours we vote and majority wins. 4 of us own and we have a former owner as a tiebreaker vote.

Democracy in action.

We'll see how democracy works when 2 of us want to add a GPS steer module to couple the 430w to the altimatic 3 AP.

 

[GCA319]

My mission is flying to Carrizo (KCZT) and Freer (T19) once or twice a month (2hr one way). I've been shut down this weekend and last due to low ceilings, forecasted on the return flight. So I'm already fed up with the VFR limitations. Once or twice a year I might fly to Houma, LA (4hr one way). That's about it.

I asked my avionics shop what's the minimum equipment to safely fly with my two kids and that's the 12K response. The price includes a 430, DME and repair of the existing VOR.

If you get a 430, you do not need to add a DME...Find a new avionics shop.

 

[Graueradler]

My understanding of what is legally required for IFR flight is:

1. Current transponder and static system check

2. Enough avionics to get from where you are to where you want to go

3. Enough avionics to fly a published approach when you get there and fly one at your alternate if an alternate is required

Beyond that, more avionics buys you more redundancy, more convenience, and more published approaches at your destination and alternate. Buy as much as you need to get comfortable.

Single pilot "in the wet" IFR without some level of autopilot is a very high workload. On a long flight, it can get very exhausting. A non-pilot passenger with enough experience to reliably hold straight and level can relieve that workload a lot.

 

[flyingron]

Much as I like my autopilot for reducing fatigue, I'd give it up in a heart beat before you can take my moving map.