Buying used plane as is

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Blueangel, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Quick question on a plane that my offer was accepted to buy. The seller accepted my offer to sell the plane "As Is" meaning that airworthy issues uncovered at annual inspection are my responsibility. Would you move forward on a deal like this is the price was right?
     
  2. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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  3. Ryanb

    Ryanb Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Walk the other way, there are likely some very costly hidden issues for the seller to offer this.
     
  4. tecprotb

    tecprotb Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you like the plane move forward with the inspection, if the A&P finds something your not willing to except you can choose to not purchase and only loose out on the inspection cost.
     
  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Buyer beware! You'll just be back on here in a few months moaning about the money you're spending on it.
     
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  6. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Depends.

    I'd have it looked over and adjust my offer accordingly.

    End of the day, everything is "as is"
     
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  7. Mason

    Mason Pattern Altitude

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    How do you know the price is right before you do a prebuy inspection?
     
  8. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    I was just about to say.... whenever you're buying a plane, it's on you anyway. There are no guarantees unless you specifically have some in your conditional purchase agreement.... and even then....
     
  9. Ryanb

    Ryanb Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Unless you set a contingency to purchase bearing the pre-buy goes smoothly. Takes some of the risk out of play.
     
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  10. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    but...you have no idea what you are really buying till a mechanic tells ya.

    I'd not put any money down till it's inspected by your mechanic....and preferably your mechanic signs off the annual after that inspection.
     
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  11. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The price would have to be either a steal, as in salvage price or a fresh and compete restoration by a very reputable outfit to accept that kind of deal.

    Now, if the price/agreement is 'as-is' but you retain the right to walk away if the inspection uncovers somethings particularly ugly, then that's different. That may be perfectly fine if the price is right.

    In other words, it may be a fine deal, but you need to make sure that the purchase agreement gives you an out.

    This is where a purchase agreement is important.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
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  12. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You assume that the airplane is being accurately represented and walk if it turns out it isn't.

    Most of the airplanes I've bought were done by agreeing on a price before the inspection, BUT I always had the right to back out and get my deposit back. Only had to do that once.
     
  13. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Thanks Fearless! Yeah, I told the broker that I would accept as is only if there is a contingency back out clause in the deal for me to walk away if major issues are found in the annual. Plane is half way to TBO and records look solid. I ran VREF and my offer is close to what that says. Since it has good IFR avionics, that is major plus as I dont want to spend the time and money to retrofit to complete my IFR rating. Eventually it will need ADSB stuff but based on the Garmin 530W, GDL 69, and KX mode C transponder, I can add a Mode S like a Garmin GTX 345 to comply for ADSB-in/out. Hopefully it works out as I really want to get back into flying and complete my IFR rating and take some fun trips this summer/fall.
     
  14. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sounds legit and not uncommon when there is a broker involved.
     
  15. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Go for it if you are getting it at scrap price! That's your only safe bet.
     
  16. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Well the accepted offer was 20k less than asking price so I think that is far as long as I can walk away and the inspection has no major issues.
     
  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Your offer has been excepted, now it is time to go have a look, keep the check in your pocket until you are satisfied it is worth the price.
     
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  18. linuxjim

    linuxjim Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You like the plane. You like the price, why would you not go get the pre buy? If it turns up something unacceptable negotiate or walk.

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  19. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    That could get you a court date, if you had no prior agreement.
     
  20. linuxjim

    linuxjim Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm confused. How could a pre buy get you a court date?

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  21. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    I have included the back out clause contingent upon prebuy annual inspection to allow me to get my deposit money back. That gives me a legal out to avoid losing money. I had one prebuy fail at one time and this saved my bacon as the plane would have required almost 15k in airworthy repairs.
     
  22. EminiTrader

    EminiTrader Cleared for Takeoff

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    As others have stated.... contingent on the pre-buy. I've walked after a pre-buy. Some sellers bank on you having skin in the game after you spend money on a pre-buy. And remember this don't hand over your pre-buy report to the seller, especially if the deal falls through. "hey could I get a look at that really quick". NOPE. The plane needs 10K worth of work to make it airworthy - my new offer is this dollar amount or I wish you the best. This way he wont have a list of issues at your expense (of course he may already know)
     
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  23. edessa

    edessa Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The OP said his offer has been accepted and the aircraft is offered "AS IS". Sounds like its too late for pre-buy.
    You have an agreement in place. Weather its a handshake or written to turn back and walk away from it would not look good on your part.
    And he could take you to court if he wanted to for breach of contract.
     
  24. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Have you ever bought an airplane before?

    OP clarified that the purchase agreement will have a back out clause. There is nothing to go to court over unless they refuse to give his deposit back.

    This is very normal in the airplane buying world.
     
  25. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    As Is means the buyer takes the plane as it is when the transaction is agreed. There is no warranty, and the Seller is not going to be responsible to fix stuff that the Buyer wants done.

    Flaking paint on the elevator? As is, can't expect seller to paint it.

    Miss matched brands of tires? Seller ain't gonna buy you matching ones.

    Loran C marked inop? Seller ain't gonna remove it.

    It is a used airplane, it will be sold "as is", the purpose of negotiations is to get the "as is" to be acceptable.
     
  26. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Exactly. In this case the seller is probably trying to avoid the buyer using the pre-buy to haggle/nickel and dime him on the price after the inspection.

    In this case it is assumed that the airplane is as-advertised and if not, the buyer walks.
     
  27. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted Management Council Member

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    It's not uncommon to buy planes as-is. In the end, most planes are as-is - it's just that after the prebuy inspection there's some level of negotiating involved about what the seller fixes vs. not. In this case, the seller is saying "I ain't fixing anything", but is allowing the prebuy inspection to determine whether or not this is a reasonable purchase price or not.

    If you are going to do a prebuy inspection with a mechanic, doing a full annual inspection makes the most sense. That gets all the areas you would otherwise get on an annual.

    I have done prebuy functional/flight checks, which many people don't do but I think are also important. A plane can look decent on the ground but fly terribly, have avionics issues, etc.

    I would not walk away from a plane if the seller said "as-is." In fact, that's typically how I structure deals and it's always worked out well.
     
  28. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    What good would a pre-buy do if the price was what the aircraft was really worth? I'll bet you have never bought a project aircraft.
     
  29. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The purpose of the inspection is to verify that the airplane is accurately represented.
     
  30. linuxjim

    linuxjim Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm still confused and feel like we are talking on two different topics.

    1. The OP said nothing about this being a project plane.
    2. So you are recommending the OP NOT get a pre buy?
    3. I still don't understand how this could land a court date as you have said.
    4. A pre buy let's you know if, if there is something you didn't know when you made the offer or if a plane is junk and you should renegotiate or walk away.

    But your a mechanic and know this, which is why I'm confused and feel like we're on two different threads here.



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  31. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Who ever bought a plane (minus new with warranty) that had a guarantee on it?

    I'm really not seeing the issue or what's different here, you got the guy to lower his price, he said he won't drop it anymore for any thing you might find during the prebuy, so prebuy the plane and see if it's work the agreed price, sounds about like every airplane deal I've ever heard of.


    BTW, just for comparison, here is a link to AOPAs boiler plate sales agreement, this is the one most people use.

    https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraf...ling-aircraft/sample-purchase-sales-agreement
     
  32. linuxjim

    linuxjim Pre-takeoff checklist

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  33. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The issue is that in typical POA fashion some people are trying to derail the discussion by bringing up issues that are irrelevant to the OP's situation.
     
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  34. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    I've been shaking my head at this whole "you're getting a court date" nonsense. In what planet does a purchase agreement obligate the buyer to close on a used conveyance sale come hell or high water? LOL

    Just like Ted and Fearless have described, all my airplane transactions have been as-is, in the same context as used car purchasing is as-is. I think this thread is merely one big misunderstanding over nomenclature really. IOW, POA standard.
     
  35. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Doesn't require a pre-buy to do that.
     
  36. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Wouldn't it be smarter to inspect this aircraft prior to making an offer?

    How many sellers would object to some one looking at their aircraft prior to making any offer.
     
  37. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    What's the downside of giving the seller a copy of the pre-buy report after the deal falls through? What difference does it make to you?
     
  38. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    A purchase agreement should have protection for both the seller and the buyer. Some sellers have a goodly amount of money invested in selling their aircraft, they take the aircraft off the market, while you to get off the pot and make the deal. then back out, they deserve compensation.
     
  39. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Many feel when they pay for anything it belongs to them.
     
  40. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You did see this aircraft prior to making an offer ? If not why not?