Buying Cessna for flight training???

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Moody Hamel, Dec 5, 2016.

  1. Moody Hamel

    Moody Hamel Filing Flight Plan

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    Hello all,
    I am new to the forum and wanted to get some feedback and an advise on buying my own Cessna for my training!!!
    I live in GA and wanted to save on the big ticket flight school price and the the 15 years school loan pay back. I am considering buying a middle of the road Cessna 172 or 152 (35K) on a loan through AOPA and pay out of pocket for insurance, fuel, and an instructor (my estimate around 25K). I am planning to fly everyday and finish my training till I get to commercial and will rent for the remaining hrs. What are the challenges? I know planning may look good on paper but quite different in real life. Just need an advise or prior experience on taking that route to complete training.

    Also is that route will make me less desirable to get hired by the major airlines since I completed my training not through a certified school???
    Thank you so much for any feedback.I appreciate your input on my decision.
     
  2. rk911

    rk911 Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    I am debt averse so my advice would be to work like crazy, save up and cash flow your training. then, if you still want to buy a plane, work like crazy, save up and pay cash.

    good luck.
     
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  3. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nope, airlines don't care as long as you have the proper certificates. Good luck.
     
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  4. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Go for it ,owning your own aircraft,eliminates the problem ,of the aircraft being available.
     
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  5. Moody Hamel

    Moody Hamel Filing Flight Plan

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    Time isn't my friend...I am already 36 so can't wait to save up for the aircraft, financing the plane then selling it for almost what I paid for would be a win win situation.
     
  6. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    Find a good mechanic before you buy. Get an honest compression test on the airplane before you buy. Check airplane for corrosion before you buy. Look around for an instructor that can get you to PPL in your own airplane. One that has a working relationship with a DE. Good luck!
     
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  7. rk911

    rk911 Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    did you crunch the numbers? did you include tie-down/hangar space? the cost of routine maintenance/annual inspections? unexpected repairs? don't forget insurance on you, the plane, the CFI, etc. assuming $35,000 borrowed for 10-yrs at 5% your total cost for "buying" the plane is $44,500 and $371 per month. the airplane is not likely to appreciate in value. even at 2% interest you're looking at $38,600 and $322 per month. consider this carefully before jumping in.
     
  8. PilotRPI

    PilotRPI Line Up and Wait

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    Some on here are anti-airplane loans no matter the situation. I don't see anything wrong with taking a loan as long as you've thought it through and properly planned. One thing to keep in mind is what happens if the engine (most likely the priciest part of the plane) craps the bed and you need an overhaul. It would be a 5 figure bill. On a $35k plane, it could be half the value of the aircraft. Not trying to scare you off, but something I think everyone needs to consider.
     
  9. Harold Rutila

    Harold Rutila Pre-takeoff checklist

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  10. Moody Hamel

    Moody Hamel Filing Flight Plan

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  11. Moody Hamel

    Moody Hamel Filing Flight Plan

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    Thank for your reply, do you think doing my due diligence to find a more high end Cessna with good inspection and history will eliminate bad surprises, or you found never predict engine problems!!! Could bad surprises happen to a good engine aircraft?
     
  12. Moody Hamel

    Moody Hamel Filing Flight Plan

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    My rough numbers were about 25K for fuel, oil, tie down, and instructor's rate. Give or take.
     
  13. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    Yes they could. But they are less likely if the engine shows good compression and/or if the engine is low time. Its about playing the odds. A lot of decisions in life are that way.
     
  14. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    A brand new engine could grenade on Fight One. "Saving money" on training by buying an airplane is often a false economy. Unless there are availability issues or the local flight school only rents new Cirrus at $250/hr. Now if you plan to keep it after training it might be a good idea.
     
  15. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Of course, they're man made machines. There's no guarantees.

    Question: why would you want to own during training, but then rent after you receive your license? Should be the other way around, shouldn't it? :dunno:
     
  16. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    One thing about owning for training. There is a big temptation to take the plane out when you aren't signed off for it yet. If you rent, you don't have that temptation. They WON'T LET YOU!
     
  17. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    The thing that raises a Yellow Flag to me is that you need to borrow the money to buy the airplane. I don't know how much money you have buried under your mattress for other expenses, but, I am right now paying about $25k to overhaul an engine that was running PERFECT just 2 months ago.

    I can't imagine anything worse than having your engine crap out, and HAVE to make 15 years of payments on an airplane without a running motor. What would be your plan if the engine craps out, tomorrow? Do you have some cash, how would you pay your loan?
     
  18. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I had a student who owned a C150 do this. Took the police chief's gf (he was married) up for a ride. My student was also a cop, and became my ex student promptly.
     
  19. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    My default response to this is, the only time it makes sense to buy an airplane for training is if you plan to own an airplane after training. Otherwise you are taking a huge gamble. I had to put two cylinders on my Grumman mid way through training that erased all the savings. I planned to keep it anyway so it wasn't a big deal.
     
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  20. edo2000

    edo2000 Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    There is always a chance of engine problems with a used airplane. It is a risk.

    On the other hand, training in your own airplane can be very convenient and can save money. I did it many years ago, bought a 150hp Citabria before taking my first lesson. That worked out very well. A co-worker of mine bought a C150 ( for $21K) two years ago, after his 3rd lesson. He got his PPL, and put a total of 240 hours on the plane in short order. He sold it a couple of months ago for the same amount he bought it for. No expensive maintenance issues.

    A good pre-buy inspection with compression checks is important. Also, years since last overhaul, and no long periods of inactivity. A good mechanic can advise you.
     
  21. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    My take on this, and it's just my take, is if I have the means to pay monthly for loan, mx, fill in the blank airplane expense. Let's say just for easy math's sake that all adds up to $1k/mo. To buy a $35k airplane and then finance a $25k engine they day after I get the keys will take 5 years to pigeon hole that cash away, assuming $1k/mo into a mayonnaise jar buried in the back yard. In the meantime, I'm paying $120/hr to rent an equivalent airplane for 100 hrs/year. In that same 5 years, I've spent $60k+ CFI fees. AND I haven't put a penny away towards purchase.

    Tomorrow isn't a guarantee, let alone 5 years into the future. I'd opt to just finance, but again, that's my opinion. To each their own with their money!
     
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  22. whereisrandall

    whereisrandall Pre-takeoff checklist

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    1) make sure it's IFR capable already.
    2) have enough reserve to fix it if needed.

    I wish I'd bought earlier.
     
  23. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    how much earlier?
     
  24. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    In that scenario, you would borrow the $25k to overhaul the engine???

    Who would be the lender on the new engine?

    It may work, and it would work for me, as I have the cash to work thru something like this. I was just saying there might be a yellow flag for you.

    Also, my plane is likely down for 3 months for the engine work. No flying during that time. But your loan payments would keep rolling.


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  25. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    This is the U.S. of A. and it's 2016! There's financing for everything!

    In all seriousness, yeah, I see your point. My point is, that not everyone has the means or cold hard cash lying around to purchase an airplane AND be able to plunk down another chunk to R2 an engine without getting creatively financially. They may, however, be able to make it work in installments. Maybe over 6 months, 12 months, or 120 months. That's between them and the lender. I guess the thought I'm trying to convey is I would not delay purchase because of saving for the "what-ifs" that come with it. I'm just as capable of dropping dead tomorrow as that engine is. If ownership is what someone wants, then go for it if it's in reach, via financing or otherwise.

    Again, I'm not a financial advisor, but I do know what my budget can and cannot handle. Each prospective owner must have the same confidence in their budget as well.
     
  26. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    Yeah, I don't mean to tell anyone how to manage their finances. I was just wondering if the possible outcomes had been considered, including the worst case.

    If you crash the plane, insurance will pay off the loan. But, if the motor quits, you still have to keep making payments. Plus you now have to come up with another large chunk of money. Either from under your mattress, or from another bank.

    I am not sure if the lender actually exist it would pay off the old loan finance the new motor, and the installation, along with the three or four months loss of use.




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  27. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    All very good points/observations. As long as the owner has considered the costs and consequences, and makes their decision to finance or buy outright based on their own personal limits and capabilities, then I say go for it!
     
  28. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach

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    adding a twist on this, I posted in another thread that I am planning to fly about 100 hrs a year and paying 16k towards rental just doesn't make much sense to me. how does leaseback sound? I met my flight school manager today to know more about aircraft ownership and among various things he mentioned there are couple of people local here who are currently doing leaseback with my school. not trying to make money here, but even if I can break even (or even take 5k loss a year), I am coming ahead, in rental charges as well as tax write-off via LLC. thoughts?
     
  29. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Unless your FBO gives open access to the aircraft 24/7 like mine did. That temptation was there many times. ;)
     
  30. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Just saw this.

    I can't imagine being tempted like that when the insurance company says that you're not covered for losses unless you meet THEIR requirements. And they always do.

    Unless of course, you're often tempted to do things that can lead to complete personal bankruptcy when you taxi the new airplane into someone's jet when the brakes suddenly fail. Or any of a million other possible loss scenarios like that one.

    You really want the insurance company paying for at least the first few lawyers...

    I would not be tempted in the slightest to take an aircraft up that I hadn't met the insurance requirements for.

    Our insurance requires a minimum time in type or a CFI checkout for anyone who doesn't meet the minimum hour requirement ... and recently they added an OR to that for anyone who hasn't flown a specific amount per year.

    Apparently they were taking losses from pilots who haven't flown in too long and they "fixed it" in this year's policy... my best guess anyway. We all met both minimum time in type and also minimum flight time per year, so it didn't matter to us.
     
  31. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach

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    @Moody Hamel go for it. I am in the same boat as you. as long you are ok with surprises, you will be fine. I know I am. from what I read and what I was told by my flight school manager below are the main points to consider (gathered from inputs from this forum + my flight school manager, I know nothing about planes):

    -- Pre buy inspection is must with a mechanic that's on your side
    -- you should be ready for big surprises. even if you buy a low time engine doesn't matter it wont quit on you the next day. I had similar experience with an expensive SUV. at that point, there is no other option but to take money out of bank, beg, borrow cry.. but get that dang thing fixed.. you have to meet your monthly commitment to bank anyway, plus hanger and whatever associated cost. its a man made machine, it can quit on you without warning. period. god made machines work exactly the same way too
    -- fly a few before choosing one - low wing, high wing (is there anything like a hybrid wing)?
    -- don't buy one that your friends uncle thinks is a good deal
    -- consult your CFI - he knows a lot more pilot than you do and he knows hell lot more about planes than you do (at least you hope he does)
    -- I will finance after 20% down payment - I don't agree to save up and buy, its a great thing and that's how my dad did all his purchases, its not for me. if I want something, I want it now and if I have the means, I will get it now. I will not wait 5 years, because for one, I don't know if I will live for 5 years... I am a god made machine too
    -- research. research and do some more research. if it takes 2 months, so be it.
    -- don't cave into your friend's uncle's referral who says if you don't commit to it today, you are gonna loose out on a deal of a lifetime. there will always be deal of a life time. I have learnt that the hard way too, just don't ask me how.
    -- find out what you want - that's not easy. if you are like me, I love shiny things.. aka glass cockpit.. do I need it? don't know. do I want a AOA indicator, Yes and that's like 4k or more. so facto those in
    -- find out about future DA. ADSB being one. don't know how much it will cost, but you gotto have one (depending on which class you fly I hear) by 2018
    -- which model will suite your mission? I don't think C150/152 will suit me. it can very well suit you and will save you some money. I am going for 172 or its equivalent in low wing design (yet to fly one)
    -- how long do you plan on keeping it - I plan on keeping mine for 3 years, get my IFR etc. but again, I am not chasing a career in aviation, I am pretty darn good at what I do and I plan on keep doing it. for me this will be my recreation. I will shoot for 100 hrs a year, or may be more. after 3 years, will I sell it? yes, or no.. I don't know yet. I may sell it and get into something faster or i at keep it for another 10 yrs. when i bought my current SUV, right after i bought it i had to spend quite bit of money into it. now i owe more than the worth of the SUV. i don't mind, because she is a keeper and i am in love with her. no one else is riding her.. that's for sure. point is, when i bought this, i was pretty sure i will sell it in 2 years and move into something more exotic.

    i am sure there are million other thing to look at and i am doing my research. i will share more on this forum and seek feedback as i do. i am sure new wannabe pilots like us would benefit from this discussion.

    cheers
     
  32. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    If you are willing to have it delivered or able to pick it up, you will greatly expand your used plane choices by looking in all states. Offer low, negotiate. With airplane ownership starting at 10k a year, paying 10 or so k one way or the other shouldnt be a deal breaker. But some people just have to have a deal. If you want a deal, you have to look long and hard and have cash now! Delivery is a lot easier if its one day's flight away.
     
  33. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    My advice is to wait at least until you are ready to solo. Get the bad landings on a rental plane so you do not have expensive MX bills.
     
  34. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    I am pretty sure I bounced some landings pretty hard in my training days, but I don't think I ever came anywhere close to causing maintenance issues.
     
  35. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Why not? I bought a Cherokee for my flight training. :dunno:
     
  36. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    ADS-B is required by 2020 in Class B and C airspace and above 10,000 msl. Pretty much where a transponder is required today. I am looking at about $5,000 to install an Appareo combined new digital transponder with built-in GPS and ADS-B out. To get ADS-B in, an iPad with ForeFlight is required. I need a new transponder anyway, so this really isn't a bad deal.
     
  37. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    That is why I am shopping for a plane that already has most of ADSB ready. Saves time and money now. I'd rather be up and flying to wrap up my IR and Commercial ratings in plane.