Buying an Airplane...

Snaggletooth

Snaggletooth

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Dustin
Ok, as most of yall know by now I took a Flight in PA-28-180 and loved every minute of it. Which accomplished the whole reason I went to go fly it in the first place. See if I really want to buy one.

Now that I have made up my mind that I am a Low Wing covert now :D and that I'm hooked on Flying Cherokee's, I have a few questions about buying an Airplane.

1. How much is the Down payment normally for a PA-28-180 that is around $30,000? How about the Monthly payment?

2. How much is a pre buy inspection going to cost?

3. How much a year is Aircraft owners Insurance, and is it required to buy a Plane?
 
A Pa28 fixed gear will run you about $800-1000/ year in insurance.

My annuals are about $300 but I can usually count on another $700-1000 in stuff that is found that needs to be repaired.

A good rule of thumb is that it costs about $80 to 90/ hour to fly (including fuel) this type of airplane.

You have not yet asked about hangar or tie down fees. You will need to pay one of those as you will need to keep the airplane somewhere. Unless of course you own your an airport.

Loans. Figure them like any other big purchase. I paid cash for mine so I have nothing to offer in the airplane financing area.
 
ScottM said:
A Pa28 fixed gear will run you about $800-1000/ year in insurance.

My annuals are about $300 but I can usually count on another $700-1000 in stuff that is found that needs to be repaired.

A good rule of thumb is that it costs about $80 to 90/ hour to fly (including fuel) this type of airplane.

You have not yet asked about hangar or tie down fees. You will need to pay one of those as you will need to keep the airplane somewhere. Unless of course you own your an airport.

Loans. Figure them like any other big purchase. I paid cash for mine so I have nothing to offer in the airplane financing area.
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Thanks! lots of good info there. Hangers at my home airport at $110 a month. Is that good, or bad?
 
Down payment? You mean how much will you have to stump up instead of the bank??

I don't know what they'll do on a $40k airplane (and if a 180 is going for less than that either you're getting a screeeeeemin' deal or that engine is near overhaul time), but I would assume they won't lend more than 75%-80% of Bluebook value.

A pre-buy inspection might run $500-$750, depending on the quality of the logs. The A&P will want to review for AD compliance, that can take some time if the logs are crappy. Plus the poke around in nooks and crannies. Take it to someone who's done a few annuals on Cherokees. That pre-buy is really not much more than log review, compression check, and a quick once over, hopefully pulling the inspection plates. I'd negotiate something more thorough with your mechanic and the seller, even if you don't do a full annual.

You've probably heard the "annual vs pre-buy inspection" debate. Some owners will be wary of allowing a strange mech at a strange airport tear their plane apart. There has been more than one instance of a mech claiming an airworthiness issue and holding the plane hostage. WIth a Cherokee, if you check for corrosion in the usual places, take a good look at the engine, gear and mounts, control rigging, you should be ok.

Insurance - you don't have to have it, if you own the plane, but the bank will insist on if IINM. $40k airframe? $1mill/$100k? I can't believe you'd be paying more than what Scott said - $800-$1,000

As Scott mentioned, stuff breaks. You ask some folks here how much an annual costs, and all they quote is time, not the inevitable repairs. I guarantee you will spend at least $1,000 - $2000 on fixing crap at every annual. I like keeping stuff fixed all the time, so I never wait until annual and still get the 1-2 AMU crap at annual. Count on it.

REMEMBER YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THIS AIRPLANE. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OUT THERE, JUST LIKE IT, LOOKING TO BE SOLD. TRUST ME. IF SOMETHING WEIRD COMES UP, JUST WALK.
 
Snaggletooth said:
Thanks! lots of good info there. Hangers at my home airport at $110 a month. Is that good, or bad?
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Good if every other place is at $400/mo bad if they are at $40/mo:D

I pay nearly $300/mo for my hangar and that is cheap around here. There are airports where you cannot even get a hangar. Have you checked availability?
 
flyersfan31 said:
Down payment? You mean how much will you have to stump up instead of the bank??

I don't know what they'll do on a $40k airplane (and if a 180 is going for less than that either you're getting a screeeeeemin' deal or that engine is near overhaul time), but I would assume they won't lend more than 75%-80% of Bluebook value.

A pre-buy inspection might run $500-$750, depending on the quality of the logs. The A&P will want to review for AD compliance, that can take some time if the logs are crappy. Plus the poke around in nooks and crannies. Take it to someone who's done a few annuals on Cherokees. That pre-buy is really not much more than log review, compression check, and a quick once over, hopefully pulling the inspection plates. I'd negotiate something more thorough with your mechanic and the seller, even if you don't do a full annual.

You've probably heard the "annual vs pre-buy inspection" debate. Some owners will be wary of allowing a strange mech at a strange airport tear their plane apart. There has been more than one instance of a mech claiming an airworthiness issue and holding the plane hostage. WIth a Cherokee, if you check for corrosion in the usual places, take a good look at the engine, gear and mounts, control rigging, you should be ok.

Insurance - you don't have to have it, if you own the plane, but the bank will insist on if IINM. $40k airframe? $1mill/$100k? I can't believe you'd be paying more than what Scott said - $800-$1,000

As Scott mentioned, stuff breaks. You ask some folks here how much an annual costs, and all they quote is time, not the inevitable repairs. I guarantee you will spend at least $1,000 - $2000 on fixing crap at every annual. I like keeping stuff fixed all the time, so I never wait until annual and still get the 1-2 AMU crap at annual. Count on it.

REMEMBER YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THIS AIRPLANE. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OUT THERE, JUST LIKE IT, LOOKING TO BE SOLD. TRUST ME. IF SOMETHING WEIRD COMES UP, JUST WALK.
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More quality advise from the guys at PoA!

By "Monthly payment" I mean just that. when I finance the plane payment, how much will the monthly payment be? I'm not rich and can't walk up to the seller with a briefcase full of cash and buy it.
 
ScottM said:
Good if every other place is at $400/mo bad if they are at $40/mo:D

I pay nearly $300/mo for my hangar and that is cheap around here. There are airports where you cannot even get a hangar. Have you checked availability?
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It's a small, not very busy airport, and it has more than enough hangers to go around. lol
 
Snaggletooth said:
By "Monthly payment" I mean just that. when I finance the plane payment, how much will the monthly payment be? I'm not rich and can't walk up to the seller with a briefcase full of cash and buy it.
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If you know how to use Excel, you can calculate to your heart's content. Just use the PMT function and plug in the rate (probably at least 8%), the term (I don't think any bank would go over 10 years these days) and the amount you think you want to borrow. Make sure you plug in months instead of years in your formula and divide the APR by 12 to get the right answer.

But someone's going to chime in and say you shouldn't borrow for an entry level single, and that someone would be right. I don't know of any lenders that will bother with less than a $25k loan and you're going to need pretty good credit to qualify. I'd look at joining a club if you don't have a bunch of cash sitting around.
 
Snag, send a PM to Ron Levy on this board. He has an analysis of the cost of owning a basic single engine aircraft which he has shared willingly in the past but on request only. It may be a little out of date but it will give you a framework to insert current data. Pay attention to the insurance costs, they may have changed significantly. -Skip
 
Snaggletooth said:
More quality advise from the guys at PoA!

By "Monthly payment" I mean just that. when I finance the plane payment, how much will the monthly payment be? I'm not rich and can't walk up to the seller with a briefcase full of cash and buy it.
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If you don't know how to run a loan amortization schedule, I imagine you could find one online. I don't know how far out they'll run used aircraft loans. 10-12 yrs? Max, I believe, is 20yrs. I doubt it, though, on a $40k purchase price.

I would assume 12yrs, 7% interest, 20% down. That'll give you a ballpark. Edit - I just found an amortizer on BankRate.com. $25k in with these numbers = $257/mo payment.)

Remember, even cheap planes can have sharp teeth and have been known to bite. I would make certain I could handle a sudden bite, like a $7,000 crankshaft AD, without going belly up. It happens. It's happened to folks on this board. I believe it happened to ScottM, in fact.

One more thing about that airplane -- check if it is on oil-monitoring program (every oil change they pull a sample and send to a lab). Even a one time sample at the pre-buy could save you $$$, although it's nowhere near as useful without the trend data. Obviously, you'll want to check the filter and/or screen for metal particles. If the engine is making metal, that would make for an expensive "Welcome to Plane Ownership" present.

Again - if you can't handle a $7k-$10k kick in the pants, don't buy the plane. Find a partnership. Stuff happens with airplanes. Quickly. Without warning. Expensively. DO NOT run your proforma models with best-case numbers.

Is this Cherokee really selling for $30k? Why?
 
Snaggletooth said:
Thanks! lots of good info there. Hangers at my home airport at $110 a month. Is that good, or bad?
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$110.00/mo is dirt-cheap. Hangars at Addison start at around $400.00 and go up - way up.

Where are you?
 
[I'd look at joining a club if you don't have a bunch of cash sitting around.[/quote]

Probably the best advice as you will have other people to share the cost and it will be a learning period of ownership. Should you want to buy your own plane later you will have learned a lot of hard lessons with others to share it with.
 
Snaggletooth said:
Ok, as most of yall know by now I took a Flight in PA-28-180 and loved every minute of it. Which accomplished the whole reason I went to go fly it in the first place. See if I really want to buy one.

Now that I have made up my mind that I am a Low Wing covert now :D and that I'm hooked on Flying Cherokee's, I have a few questions about buying an Airplane.

1. How much is the Down payment normally for a PA-28-180 that is around $30,000? How about the Monthly payment?

2. How much is a pre buy inspection going to cost?

3. How much a year is Aircraft owners Insurance, and is it required to buy a Plane?
Click to expand...

The first thing any new owner should do is find the A&P-IA that will be maintaining the aircraft.

next secure the hangar,

know the selling prices of the make and model

know all the ADs and which will be re-occurring each year.

you and your A&P hunt for an aircraft, there are many online sources T-A-P is the big guy in the industry. ASO and Controller are good too.

after you find the ones that interest you, call the owner and get a copy of the logs and go over them with your A&P

call the FAA at OKC and get the CD of the history files of the aircraft and compare them to the logs.

then take your A&P and go see the aircraft.

be positive the the 4 pieces of required paper work are correct. (AROW)

then ask you A&P 1 question, "what will it cost me to have you do the first annual on this aircraft, and sign it off as airworthy"?

Be a savy buyer have you loan pre-approved and be ready to move on the best aircraft for the price.

When you own, you will have a tendency to fly more, so the fixed costs per hour will go down,

I pay 810 bucks per year on the F-24 for not in motion hull replacement AKA Hull coverage, but 2300 per year if in motion coverage.

insurance will vary greatly depending what coverage you get. Your loan officer will require that they be the insured, they get paid first when some thing happens. (just like your car loans) our Credit union (Alaska USA) will loan 80% of the assessed value of the aircraft. and they insist they be a co-owner. but they will go out 15 years at 4.75%.

When you find an aircraft in the great northwest, I'd be happy to help inspect it for free.
 
OBTW,,,,,,,, If you liked the 180, you'll love an Arrow III, or a Cherokee 235/6, basically the same aircraft with much better climb and gross weights.
 
Don't be so quick to jump into ownership. Until now, you've been renting and the FBO is spreading the fixed costs across all of its renters. When you own you get all of the fixed costs. The fixed costs alone may wipe out your monthly budget.

I'm not trying to scare you away from owning, but I think maybe you'd be better off flying a rental plane for a while, since you are a new pilot. Give yourself some time to fully understand the ramifications (and possible serious financial burden) of owning a plane. The point is to fly, owning is a secondary desire.
 
Tom-D said:
OBTW,,,,,,,, If you liked the 180, you'll love an Arrow III, or a Cherokee 235/6, basically the same aircraft with much better climb and gross weights.
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We already scared him with switching 2 fuel tanks. I'm thinking 4 might blow his mind.
 
Thanks for all the info guys!! There are so many things yall asked. I'll try to answer them, but if I don't just ask again. I want as mush knowledge going in to this as possible.

The Cherokee is $27,500. Most of the Cherokee 180's I'm looking at are right near $30,000. That looks to be the norm for 180's.

The hangers are at BYY, in south Texas.

The Cherokee I just got sighed off to rent, is a 2 hour drive there and back, or about an hour Flight both ways. The nearest Club that has a Cherokee and an Arrow is also about the same distance. The only plane that I can rent that is close to home is the C172E that I rent now at BYY.
 
Snaggletooth said:
Ok, as most of yall know by now I took a Flight in PA-28-180 and loved every minute of it. Which accomplished the whole reason I went to go fly it in the first place. See if I really want to buy one.

Now that I have made up my mind that I am a Low Wing covert now :D and that I'm hooked on Flying Cherokee's, I have a few questions about buying an Airplane.
Click to expand...

Do not rush.

Do not rush.

Do not rush.

Do not rush.

Do not rush.

Do not rush.

This is not a spur-of-the-moment purchase, altho this is a good time to buy. I spent over a year until I found one in reasonably good shape (almost no avionics but that was ok for me) and a reasonable price.

Snaggletooth said:
1. How much is the Down payment normally for a PA-28-180 that is around $30,000? How about the Monthly payment?
Click to expand...

Depends entirely how you finance and purchase. Get your financing first. this is NOT like buying a car or a house. Many places will not finance an airplane. There are some organizations and banks that do specialize or have a division that finance airplanes. In other words, go shopping for the money source before you shop for the airplane.

Snaggletooth said:
2. How much is a pre buy inspection going to cost?
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All things are negotiable. But assume it's a very expensive annual inspection. Search the FAA database for ADs on the airframe, the engine (Lycoming O-360 series) and the common "appliances", e.g. the mags, starter, etc).

Once you find 2-3 aircraft that seem appropriate, spend the $2-5 each for the FAA records of 337s and such. AND ask to review the logs. If they won't let you see the logs, walk away, no RUN AWAY!

Snaggletooth said:
3. How much a year is Aircraft owners Insurance, and is it required to buy a Plane?
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Nothing's required, but it is good practice. Your insurance will be very high at the beginning since you're a newbie. As you get more hours, the price comes down. I bought my cherokee in 2000 after solos, after long XC but before checkride. My insurance was around $1200/yr. I paid $575 last month on the renewal (over 700 hours in my logbook).

Other things to consider (which will probably duplicate what others mention)

1) hangar or tiedown (if not hangar, do you need a cover?)
2) periodic expenses - oil changes, cleaning supplies, tires & tubes, lightbulbs and lamps, and so on. In the baggage area, I have a box that contains 2 qts oil, simple tool kit and 1 of every exterior bulb. I've had to change the landing light late at night when it went out and I was away from home.
3) engine repairs (e.g. replace a mag, a cylinder, starter, etc.)
4) engine overhaul
5) headsets for pax (unless they have their own)

Monthly mortgage payment? This is a good opportunity for you to learn to use Excel or OpenOffice....
 
flyersfan31 said:
Is this Cherokee really selling for $30k? Why?
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$30K is not unreasonable right now. Run numbers on both Vref and TAP and average them out. I ran on my 180D and depending on engine time, value estimates ranged from $18K (runout engine) - $32K (500 hr after overhaul).

It's a buyers market right now, if you can find one in good shape.

As for the comment on buying an entry-level single....for some people, that's all they need or want. It's a very rare occurrance where I need a faster airplane. And remember, faster = more expensive in fuel & upkeep.

In addition to owning a cherokee, I"m in a club so I can fly the DA40. Only a smidge faster than the cherokee, uses half the fuel !!! but the panel alone cost more than I paid for the cherokee...I'd never spend $250K+ for an airplane.
 
There is nothing like owning an airplane to help you understand the stuff to look for when buying an airplane.
 
I'm not rushing right now, but I am looking in to all the things for when I am ready. I plan to start putting money back soon for it. Once I have me a nice pillow, I'll start looking more seriously.

Thanks for all the help guys!
 
Hang around your local field, ask around and see who owns what. There's a reasonable chance someone has a bird that isn't flying much that might be interested in a non-equity partnership or other cost-sharing arrangement. That would beat driving 2 hours to fly a rental PA-28.
 
My PA 28-161 costs about six to eight thousand dollars a year to own it. That includes a tie down at $145.00 per month, annuals, and replacing the inevitable whatever that stops working, and also insurance. It does not include gas and oil. It does not include an engine replacement fund.

You should allow about seven hundred dollars a month plus your payment.

I am in San Diego, most annuals and aircraft labor is at $70-$80 per hour. An annual is usually around two thousand dollars, although my last one was over three thousand dollars. I tried a new place that seemed to have a good name.

I think the best advise for an airplane owner to figure costs is much the same as a yacht owner is usually told. "Figure every cost you can imagine, then double that number, you should be close."

John
 
COFlyBoy said:
Don't be so quick to jump into ownership. Until now, you've been renting and the FBO is spreading the fixed costs across all of its renters. When you own you get all of the fixed costs. The fixed costs alone may wipe out your monthly budget.

I'm not trying to scare you away from owning, but I think maybe you'd be better off flying a rental plane for a while, since you are a new pilot. Give yourself some time to fully understand the ramifications (and possible serious financial burden) of owning a plane. The point is to fly, owning is a secondary desire.
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As a Cherokee owner I'll ditto that. Mere mortals are not supposed to own airplanes. JOIN A CLUB!

I'd be afraid that a $30,000 Cherokee 180 will need a $15,000 engine overhaul real soon and that will be the least of your worries.

JOIN A CLUB!
 
mikea said:
As a Cherokee owner I'll ditto that. Mere mortals are not supposed to own airplanes. JOIN A CLUB!

I'd be afraid that a $30,000 Cherokee 180 will need a $15,000 engine overhaul real soon and that will be the least of your worries.

JOIN A CLUB!
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The closest club is like an hour away, I'll link to it. Tell me what yall think.

http://www.tlmworks.com/baac/
 
John:

Remember, there is a difference between an Annual Inspection and the cost to fix the things found during the inspection. If you're paying $X thousands just for the inspection, you really need to find a new shop.
 
A quick perusal of TAP and I come out with an eyeball average of over $40k for a 180. Asking, not selling price, but still.

Looks like early/mid 1960s versions will go in the low 30s.

I will close with this: just because the airplane is located close to you, does not make it a good deal.
 
That club is pretty cool. What a selection! Costs are not unreasonable, plus the variety is nice.

An hour is a drag, but not having to deal with MX stuff is worth a bit.

My plane is hangared an hour away, but I figure the breakeven distance (hangar airport/no hangar) is maybe 25mins, considering it takes 15 to uncover it/35 to cover it (I have a big plane, and I cover the whole thing, wings and all), an hour to preheat when outside without access to an electric outlet, deicing vs no deicing, etc. A smaller, older plane and you can skip the covering bit, maybe spring for an FBO 15min preheat, and cut that time down.

Owning a plane is great, but it is NOT the sort of thing you want to get into if you need to count the pennies in the budget every month. Renting is MUCH MUCH MUCH better in that instance. TRUST US!!! WE KNOW!!!! BTDT!!!!!
 
The way I see it, it's an hour to the Cherokee 180 that I rent, and an hour to the Areo Club. What would be better, renting the 180 from the Flight School, and having nothing but the rental cost. or being in the club, having rental cost, plus the monthly dues?

Seems to me that going the club route is more expensive, but is it worth the extra money compared to just renting? What are the benefits that make being a member of an Aero Club, better than renting?
 
If I were to buy a Cherokee 180 - and finance it - I'd want to have $20,000 in the bank that I could tap into. If I didn't have $20,000 sitting in the bank I wouldn't buy it, loan or not.

Airplanes are expensive and the purchase price isn't the whole story. The last thing you want to end up with is a paperweight in a hangar that you're making payments on and can't afford to fix. If that happens you're up **** creek and can't sell it either.

Patience is my buying strategy right now :)
 
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How important is it that you have something to fly after driving the hour to get there? Club seems to offer far more options, many of them cheaper than the Cherokee. Although you're in heat for the low-wing scrunch-and-scoot now, I'm not sure that you've flown enough to know what you want at this point. After six months flying around in Texas in a greenhouse cockpit for six months, you could be back in the high-wing camp.



Snaggletooth said:
The way I see it, it's an hour to the Cherokee 180 that I rent, and an hour to the Areo Club. What would be better, renting the 180 from the Flight School, and having nothing but the rental cost. or being in the club, having rental cost, plus the monthly dues?

Seems to me that going the club route is more expensive, but is it worth the extra money compared to just renting? What are the benefits that make being a member of an Aero Club, better than renting?
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The day you get it home have about 10% of the value standing by....**** will break. This formula was passed onto me by a used airplane broker. That formula has yet to be proven wrong in my book.
 
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All valid points. Lots of stuff to consider.

Also, I know that I won't be buying for a while. Right now, I'm just looking at what I will be getting my self in to when I do. Over the coming months, I'll have a better idea on everything, and will make a better decision on High vs. Low wing, etc, etc.
 
taters said:
The day you get it home have about 10% of the value standing by....**** will break. This formula was passed onto me by a used airplane broker. That formula has yet to be proven wrong in my book.
Click to expand...


It's also good to know where you'll get the money for an engine
overhaul/replacement. That'll be quite a bit more than 10% of
the value.
 
About insurance and what you pay. More $$$ for lowtime pilots. More $$$ for lowtime in type. The options you take will also change the costs.
Taxes. In Ma, they don't have a sales tax/excise tax on airplanes. So you save 6.5% above the purchase price but the state does have a registration fee ($160 a year for a single).
Federal registration. Soon to be. What it will end up being is still being discussed but $5 has been the most noted. The re-authorization bill has indicated $45-130. And once the nose is under the tent, who knows what else they'll find to increase revenue.
Toys. Now that you own a plane, every new toy sparks your interest. Your first might be a built in GPS. You might want an IFR bird. Your radios might go south right after the money changes hands.
On my bird, I'm on my 4th used BendixKing 89B. The first was installed when I bought the plane (IFR/Enroute/Approach). 4 years later, it gave up. The replacement was $1500 and when that went dead, the next two were covered under warranty.
Ownership just gives you MANY MANY more ways to spend money.
 
jesse said:
Patience is my buying strategy right now :)
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Patience has served me well with anything I have bought. When I've been impatient, it's come back to bite me. Be ready to jump at a good deal when it comes, but remember there are more deals out there.

A lot of people have suggested finding a club, which is a good idea. Here's a thought - why not start a club/partnership? It'll be a good learning experience and you'll get the benefits of club/partnership.
 
A club probably has more flexibility when it comes to longer trips. My old FBO charged a 3hr min, for rentals of more than a day, whether or not you flew. That tended to put a damper on taking a rental for a trip to the Outer Banks for a weekend.

Better than a club would be a partnership, if you want some extended time with the plane. I bet it would be pretty easy to get a partnership going on a Cherokee 180.
 
That club looks pretty good to me. Looks like they've well equipped if you want your IR, complex endorsement, tailwheel endorsement, etc. Decent rental rates, plus it looks like you can get block time discounts. I'd check it out.
 
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