Buying a plane past its engine TBO?

genna

genna

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What are the pros and cons of buying an otherwise perfectly good plane with an engine that is in good order but past its TBO.

Plane is priced as if engine is gone.
 
I think the pros are that you can get some "free" time if you can run it another few hundred hours.

Obviously, I'm only speaking in terms of depreciation. But if you are lucky enough for the engine to not quit on you, you could come out way ahead as a time building measure. Put 200 hours on it and re-sell it.

I'd assume though, if the engine quits, you are gonna end up shelling out more then simply buying a plane with a mid-time engine in the first place.
 
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If it is a make and model you want, buy it! make sure you have the capital to replace the engine because it could roll snake eyes any time. Good luck will bring you hours of "free" engine time. -Skip
 
And once you do major the engine you have the plane you want with a new engine.
 
genna said:
What are the pros and cons of buying an otherwise perfectly good plane with an engine that is in good order but past its TBO.

Plane is priced as if engine is gone.
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Con: You are more likely to need a ready engine reserve.

Pro: You may not need it for another 1000 hours.

As long as it is priced as a run out, there is nothing particularly against the deal. Engine Overhaul is valued near prorata.
 
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Bonchie said:
I'd assume though, if the engine quits, you are gonna end up shelling out more then simply buying a plane with a mid-time engine in the first place.
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Doubtful the engine is just gonna quit.....they just don't quit from being beyond TBO. There are other warning signs like low oil pressure, high oil consumption, and lack of power that will begin the OH thought process.

It could be a very positive experience.:yes:
 
I did it with a warrior II. Bought at 2000SMOH, sold at 2265ish SMOH for a rounding error less than what I bought it for. Worked out. Consumed oil like a mother, but oil is cheap. I still ended up essentially stealing those hours. I much prefer that construct to eating maintenance on an infant mortality sub 200 SMOH engine, not to mention the tied up capital. Of course this is a PA-28, which I could have left wrecked on the side of the road and walked home and bought another one that same day with the insurance check. To each their own.
 
If it has the equipment you want and the cost of the engine is reflected in the lower selling price, I don't see any cons (assuming you've got the money in the bank to overhaul when you need to).

You are basically playing with house money at that point. And if the engine kicks the bucket, you spend money you'd of spent anyway had you bought a plane with a fresher engine.
 
Bonchie said:
I think the pros are that you can get some "free" time if you can run it another few hundred hours.

Obviously, I'm only speaking in terms of depreciation. But if you are lucky enough for the engine to not quit on you, you could come out way ahead as a time building measure. Put 200 hours on it and re-sell it.

I'd assume though, if the engine quits, you are gonna end up shelling out more then simply buying a plane with a mid-time engine in the first place.
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The price of the install is what you gamble with as the cost of the engine is pretty much recoverable. The other side of the coin is the mid time engine carries a price premium that expires at 75% TBO, so there is still depreciation on the table there. Then as you point out, exit strategy has a factor in the decision making process; just how long do you plan to keep the plane?
 
The thing is most of the planes I see with engines closer to TBO don't seem to reflect that in the price. Now granted I am looking at lower end less than 30K planes. But often the difference between one that has 500 hours and one that has 1500-1800 is a few thousand dollars.
 
I bought a plane 400 past TBO that was WELL equipped..more than I was expecting to be able to get. When I added the plane at asking price PLUS a new engine I still was not finding anything as nice.

A&P after log book review said to plan on a new engine right away...which I was prepared to do. After a full annual he said to forget what he said earlier, engine is in great shape and still running strong with no signs of needing to be overhauled. 350 Hours later I have been doing religious oil changes with oil analysis and it is still going strong. A&P just said do not put a dime into the engine should anything go wrong and to overhaul at that point.

I am just now looking at an upgrade as I wanna do some longer adventure treks and want to beef up the 182 to a Pponk.

Most people are afraid of a run out engine but for me it was the way to go...I will have more plane than I expected to get and by end of the summer will have a new engine and still ahead of the game financially.
 
I bought my 150 at 2200 SMOH (circa 1974) on an 1800 recommended overhaul. However, it's only 100 STOH. Burns next to no oil, doesn't leak, runs strong. Plane was already priced accordingly so I feel I'm well ahead. To hedge my karma, I do sink an excessive $100/hr into an engine reserve, assuming a $20,000 rebuild in 200 hours. Every mechanic I've ever talked to, aside from one corporate by-the-books fellow says fly it forever.
 
Shawn said:
I bought a plane 400 past TBO that was WELL equipped..more than I was expecting to be able to get. When I added the plane at asking price PLUS a new engine I still was not finding anything as nice.

A&P after log book review said to plan on a new engine right away...which I was prepared to do. After a full annual he said to forget what he said earlier, engine is in great shape and still running strong with no signs of needing to be overhauled. 350 Hours later I have been doing religious oil changes with oil analysis and it is still going strong. A&P just said do not put a dime into the engine should anything go wrong and to overhaul at that point.

I am just now looking at an upgrade as I wanna do some longer adventure treks and want to beef up the 182 to a Pponk.

Most people are afraid of a run out engine but for me it was the way to go...I will have more plane than I expected to get and by end of the summer will have a new engine and still ahead of the game financially.
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Get the Canard too...;)
 
a guy on another board i am on just posted the pictures of the 50hr brand new lycoming that busted a cam. the odds of a catastrophic failure in a new are just as bad as an old engine. I'm never afraid to buy with a high time engine if the price reflects it and it looks good after inspection. my current engine was bought no logbooks and unknown hours, is running great 14 years later.

bob burns
 
I guess I'll elaborate a bit. Yes, I understand that basically it's like gambling on the house's money, with needing enough cash in reserve for a new engine. And if you do, you just paid for the same plane with a new engine... if priced correctly...

My "cons" question was: Are there any insurance, annual, or other expenses/problems that have to be accounted for other than religious changes and checks of oil and an annual and paying close attention(something one should be doing anyway)?

Plane is likely an early SR22
 
Fly with a parachute. If the engine quits, jump out and collect the insurance payment. No need to pay for a new engine. Problem solved. :)
 
BigBadLou said:
Fly with a parachute. If the engine quits, jump out and collect the insurance payment. No need to pay for a new engine. Problem solved. :)
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Hmm... that does make sense:D:yes:
 
We had cam/lifter spalling on our 300 hr engine. Can happen at any age...
 
genna said:
I guess I'll elaborate a bit. Yes, I understand that basically it's like gambling on the house's money, with needing enough cash in reserve for a new engine. And if you do, you just paid for the same plane with a new engine... if priced correctly...

My "cons" question was: Are there any insurance, annual, or other expenses/problems that have to be accounted for other than religious changes and checks of oil and an annual and paying close attention(something one should be doing anyway)?

Plane is likely an early SR22
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Just keep up on oil analysis, and run lean as you can. Oil analysis will likely give you a significant heads up before you get into wear related catastrophic failure. Lean because the greatest engine expenses and problems come from carbon on the valve seats and stems; especially if you are running 100LL. The lead is like glue for the carbon. On the stems it wears the guides and causes sticking, on the seats and faces it eventually allows combustion gas to leak through, and that acts like a cutting torch burning your valve and seat.
 
genna said:
My "cons" question was: Are there any insurance, annual, or other expenses/problems that have to be accounted for other than religious changes and checks of oil and an annual and paying close attention
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I would say no...nothing more than you would normally do other than the advice my A&P gave me...do not put any signifigant money into the engine beyond basic maintenance...do the overhaul at that time should anything pop up.

I would say that if you think you can out off the inevitable forever, then it will cost you a whole lot more in the long run.
 
If the price truly reflects the need for an overhaul,it can be a good buy,enjoy all the free hours. Then reopen and continue to enjoy the airplane.
 
Smart seller. If he overhauled the engine he wouldn't get all his money back. If you do it it'll probably cost you more than the allowance figured in the sale price. Not that it isn't a good deal, that's just the way airplane math works.
 
genna said:
Plane is likely an early SR22
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I agree with practically all that has been said about engines running far past TBO. You could quite possibly get several hundred hours of "free" engine use if you figure there will be very little resale price depreciation between just over TBO to way past TBO.

But a question that I have is how close it is to the 10 year CAPS replacement cycle? That could be a possible snake in the grass.
 
dans2992 said:
We had cam/lifter spalling on our 300 hr engine. Can happen at any age...
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. Someone can always done up with an answer like this but it's not the usual occurrence. High time engines are always a gamble and not hard to figure out. To quote Clint Eastwood......"feelin lucky ....?" Like going to Las Vegas.
 
dans2992 said:
They said, "here's your bill for $15k".... At least they stand behind their product. :(
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sorry they didn't cover that with the warranty.....:mad2:

I'd bet it was a parts material hardness problem vs a corrosion issue.....that's way to new for that.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I agree with practically all that has been said about engines running far past TBO. You could quite possibly get several hundred hours of "free" engine use if you figure there will be very little resale price depreciation between just over TBO to way past TBO.

But a question that I have is how close it is to the 10 year CAPS replacement cycle? That could be a possible snake in the grass.
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Most all the early ones have already been done, and are at prices where you can upgrade to a G-500 from steam and buy them cheaper than the Entegra PFD system and upgrade to SVT as well.
 
What Henning said. Caps are done in most early ones. Panel might be another story.

There is no specific plane. It's not even for me :)

SR22 is for payload and range and being modern. Personally, I'd pick SR20 if cirrus, but the guy wants the payload
 
Stewartb said:
Smart seller. If he overhauled the engine he wouldn't get all his money back. If you do it it'll probably cost you more than the allowance figured in the sale price. Not that it isn't a good deal, that's just the way airplane math works.
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Yes, maybe, you would have an engine you trust and could treat well and run a long time. that is worth some thing.

And remember, you never make money selling, you make your money buying. When the price is right, you can afford the new engine and still be under high market.
 
unsafervguy said:
a guy on another board i am on just posted the pictures of the 50hr brand new lycoming that busted a cam. the odds of a catastrophic failure in a new are just as bad as an old engine. I'm never afraid to buy with a high time engine if the price reflects it and it looks good after inspection. my current engine was bought no logbooks and unknown hours, is running great 14 years later.

bob burns
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Statistically, actually, engines are at their worst the first 100 hours after overhaul. A well running engine that exhibits no oil analysis anomalies is safer than and overhauled engine.

Spend a few bucks and get the real picture of the engine's health. Send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs (http://m.blackstone-labs.com). That will tell you, along with compression, how the engine is doing. Engines can and do sometimes go 50% over TBO. But their health must be monitored much more carefully than a newer engine.

Disclaimer: Ideas stolen from Mike Busch
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Statistically, actually, engines are at their worst the first 100 hours after overhaul. A well running engine that exhibits no oil analysis anomalies is safer than and overhauled engine.

Spend a few bucks and get the real picture of the engine's health. Send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs (http://m.blackstone-labs.com). That will tell you, along with borescope inspection, how the engine is doing. Engines can and do sometimes go 50% over TBO. But their health must be monitored much more carefully than a newer engine.

Disclaimer: Ideas stolen from Mike Busch
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FTFY.....many of us do not put a whole lot of credence in compression tests.:yesnod:
 
Back in the 90's when GA was still alive I rented from a FBO that had 40 aircraft. One of those was a 172 that I found out was going on 3,100 hours........plane looked great and the engine one of the smoother in the fleet........never had a problem with the bird.....
 
genna said:
What Henning said. Caps are done in most early ones. Panel might be another story.

There is no specific plane. It's not even for me :)

SR22 is for payload and range and being modern. Personally, I'd pick SR20 if cirrus, but the guy wants the payload
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Define "early". What is the model year of the one(s) being looked at? Didn't the SR22 first come out in 2001? If you limit the term "early" to 2001 through early 2005 then yes, they should be done. If you apply "early" to a few more years, it could still be due and due soon. Just something to consider. Without knowing the year in question due to the vague use of the word early, I thought I would throw that potential concern into the conversation.

As far as the panel, even if it is a 2001 panel that is still a fairly young panel and should be of little concern.

To me between a high time engine, a panel that is still fairly fresh and a potential CAPS repack, the repack would concern me the most.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Statistically, actually, engines are at their worst the first 100 hours after overhaul. A well running engine that exhibits no oil analysis anomalies is safer than and overhauled engine.

Spend a few bucks and get the real picture of the engine's health. Send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs (http://m.blackstone-labs.com). That will tell you, along with compression, how the engine is doing. Engines can and do sometimes go 50% over TBO. But their health must be monitored much more carefully than a newer engine.

Disclaimer: Ideas stolen from Mike Busch
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I would hope that the current owner has been doing oil analysis and should also have those records to share but yes, having one done is always a good idea.

Oh btw, Mike Busch did not invent oil analysis nor its use during a pre-buy. Nor did he invent the idea of operating past TBO.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
Back in the 90's when GA was still alive I rented from a FBO that had 40 aircraft. One of those was a 172 that I found out was going on 3,100 hours........plane looked great and the engine one of the smoother in the fleet........never had a problem with the bird.....
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(There are ALWAYS exceptions but again the question is " are you feeling lucky.!?)
But it certainly could have an hour after you flew it! High time engines are always suspect and prone to failure. With a car, you pull over, with an airplane you land and live only if your lucky as the engine can quit just as easily on take off, over densely populated areas, water etc. My Stearman quit over farmland but it could have quit an hour earlier over the chesapeake bay where I may well have died. It needed an overhaul much earlier.
 
High time, frequent use, engines rarely catastrophically fail due to internal factors. Usually they start consuming too much oil, or are just down in power, and it gets decided to overhaul at the next convenient period. Or metal is noticed on an oil change.
 
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