Buyer assumption of risk during purchase process

bentmettle

bentmettle

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Michigan
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matt
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Having some discussion with a seller that is concerned about damage to the plane or loss of logbooks during the prebuy process.

I'm not physically located near the plane, so would have the pre-buy shop pick up the plane, fly it to their shop, do the prebuy things, and go from there.

The seller ideal seems to be that I'd be responsible for any loss caused by the shop. The shop is insured. The seller is insured.

I've done a lot of research on how to negotiate this in a way that respects the sellers concerns, but in the end is seems to boil down to "until you sell the plane, you are at risk of loss".

The seller proposed some changes to the PA, including fixed liquidated damages (that are void in both my state and the state the seller is in, which I tried to explain without effect) that try to increase my liability for the actions of anyone associated with the pre-buy. I think at this point, I may end up having to walk away from the process entirely if they are unwilling to align the assumption of risk to the standard- i.e. it's borne by the seller and the pre-buy shop.

Any sage advice on how to bring the seller around to this?
 
Could the seller fly the airplane to the prebuy if they're concerned about it? This seems like pretty standard stuff to me, maybe the seller can check with their insurance company(assuming there is one) to see if they'd be covered in this situation?
 
From my experience when you start dealing with a seller like this it is just the beginning of the nonsense and headache that will come with every single interaction you will have with them. I will never again buy from such a seller no matter the price or how much I like the airplane.
 
cowman said:
Could the seller fly the airplane to the prebuy if they're concerned about it? This seems like pretty standard stuff to me, maybe the seller can check with their insurance company(assuming there is one) to see if they'd be covered in this situation?
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They could. But the plane could still slip off the jacks while swinging the gear. Lots of other run of the mill perils.

I personally am guessing they're likely underinsured. No one that bought in 2015 is carrying the hull valuation they're trying to sell the plane for now.

Also, I'm kind of tired of whipping the horse on the purchase agreement. I'm doing the all the work as the buyer *laugh*
 
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I have used a 'mobile' pre-buy service for two aircraft and had a very good experience for both. I used Owen Poirier (Barefoot Aviation). He is an AP/IA and can convert a prebuy into an annual, if desired. He travels by Mooney or commercial airlines and is reasonable for the service and detailed report he provides, in my experience. In one instance, the seller lost his medical and we didn't have anyone to fly the plane to a shop, and the other instance, the seller limited the transit distance for the prebuy...so I just called Owen again. If it is an airplane you are considering strongly, other than the contractual rubs, give a moblie service some thought.

https://barefootaviation.com/
 
If you want to fly my plane somewhere, you're going to be responsible if something happens to it. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. But if it seems unreasonable to you, then do the prebuy where the plane is. You're moving the plane for your benefit, not his, so I don't see why he should accept any liability.
 
Lindberg said:
If you want to fly my plane somewhere, you're going to be responsible if something happens to it. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. But if it seems unreasonable to you, then do the prebuy where the plane is. You're moving the plane for your benefit, not his, so I don't see why he should accept any liability.
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THIS RIGHT HERE!! I thought I was going insane reading the prior posts.
 
Have the seller make a digital copy of the logbook for you and your chosen shop.

Beyond that, can't help.

Sometimes sellers don't really want to sell.
 
If you were selling a used car, would you let some rando drive off with it "so his mechanic could check it out"?

I wouldn't. Maybe that makes me an "unmotivated seller", idk. Personally, I think it makes me not an idiot.

I can't imagine letting some rando fly my plane away without paying for it first.
 
Agree with 1) take the inspecting A&P to the plane, or have the seller bring the plane to the inspecting A&P. I've done pre buys both ways. Either way, the seller has eyes on the log books at all time, and can be with the mechanic when he/she inspects. If something bad happens, the owner is going to sue everyone and everything in the chain anyway.

As a seller, I'd never let the plane out of my sight. As a buyer, I didn't nor would I ask the seller to let me fly it away for the inspection.
 
Lindberg said:
If you want to fly my plane somewhere, you're going to be responsible if something happens to it. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. But if it seems unreasonable to you, then do the prebuy where the plane is. You're moving the plane for your benefit, not his, so I don't see why he should accept any liability.
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This.

In a couple of decades of buying and selling airplanes I've noticed that for every unreasonable seller, there is at least one unreasonable buyer. If you can't come to an agreement, then it is not the plane for you. If the seller is truly being unreasonable then that's their problem to deal with.

If it is a one of a kind/unique/perfect example of the plane you want, then you'll figure out a way to make it work.
 
Pretty good chance most of the people supporting the buyer here have never sold an airplane before.
 
I’ve been on both sides of this scenario. No way I would expect a seller to let me fly away an aircraft in my operational control.

I have, as a buyer, facilitated an inspection not located with the seller. I paid the seller to move the aircraft and there was a written agreement to the scope of work and fiduciary responsibilities. Ended up paying several thousand dollars to determine I was not buying the aircraft. It’s the way it goes sometimes.
 
bentmettle said:
I'm not physically located near the plane, so would have the pre-buy shop pick up the plane, fly it to their shop, do the prebuy things, and go from there.
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Did kinda wonder how this would work. Joe from Joe's Airmotive Shop shows up at the plane, introduces himself to the owner, and the owner throws him the keys?

That seems like it's expecting a lot of the owner.
 
I will add this, in contrast to my first post... My first aircraft was purchased from a seller's broker (Airmart- Lexington) with assistance of a buyer's broker (owns a FBO/repair/maintenance facility). He had Airmart fly the plane of interest to his shop in south Louisiana, at my expense, for a prebuy. He expected it to be in great shape as he was familiar with the broker representing the plane and the fact that, usually, their aircraft exceed expectations. In my case the ferry pilot did fly back commercial :).
 
Just jumping in to say that I mostly don't subscribe to pre-buy inspections being all that useful. I prefer to do an annual with an agreement on price and who pays for anything unexpected before it goes in. Best case, I get the plane with a fresh annual and get to play for a year before having to worry again. Worst case, the annual turns up something nutty and the seller keeps the plane because they don't want to discount the price of fixing something nutty.
 
172andyou said:
Just jumping in to say that I mostly don't subscribe to pre-buy inspections being all that useful. I prefer to do an annual with an agreement on price and who pays for anything unexpected before it goes in. Best case, I get the plane with a fresh annual and get to play for a year before having to worry again. Worst case, the annual turns up something nutty and the seller keeps the plane because they don't want to discount the price of fixing something nutty.
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This is the best way. Also if practical have Your Mechanic do the annual. Less surprises down the road.
 
I´ve been on the tech rep side of this situation a few times
the documentation angle matters more than people realise. The moment the aircraft is at a shop for a pre-buy inspection, there´s a gap in liabilitay that only closes once you have a clear paper trail, who is represented by who, etc.

what i´ve seen work: a simple condition report signed by both parties before the work start Not an annual, not a formal acceptance -just a documented ´this is what it looks like today before the work started.

The other thing that burns people is photo documentation. if it´s not in the inspection record when the aircraft arrived at the shop, everybody will assume that the damage or problem happened whenever interest them so better to use a few clauses in that condition/arrival report.
 
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