Buy a plane to finish my time for commercial?

Marz7490

Marz7490

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TheChicagoPilot
Need some insight from you guys!

I just finished up my instrument training in June and I was hoping to finish up my commercial by the end of the year or at least early next year. A recent hangup has been deciding between continuing to rent or buy a cheap 152, warrior, or something along those lines. I think I pay a pretty good rate, $110 an hour wet for a Warrior 161 but with 100 hours to go towards SE Commercial it's a pretty decent amount of money still left to spend.

Would I be crazy to consider picking something up for 25-40k, fly for the 100~ hours and just sell the plane next summer? Possibly even leaseback? The way I see it is I'm going to be spending the money regardless but there is a chance of breaking even while building the time I need so why not consider it?

In over my head?
 
Not at all.

I got my first plane at around 70ish hrs TT.

Had it for 6 years after that, was going to sell but I enjoyed owning, ended up upgrading.

Bang for the buck, it is the ideal way to go if you're smart about how you buy and can turn a wrench.
 
Marz7490 said:
Need some insight from you guys!

I just finished up my instrument training in June and I was hoping to finish up my commercial by the end of the year or at least early next year. A recent hangup has been deciding between continuing to rent or buy a cheap 152, warrior, or something along those lines. I think I pay a pretty good rate, $110 an hour wet for a Warrior 161 but with 100 hours to go towards SE Commercial it's a pretty decent amount of money still left to spend.

Would I be crazy to consider picking something up for 25-40k, fly for the 100~ hours and just sell the plane next summer? Possibly even leaseback? The way I see it is I'm going to be spending the money regardless but there is a chance of breaking even while building the time I need so why not consider it?

In over my head?
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Buying a plane purely to build time can be problematic. Even if you buy it cheap, in order to beat the $110/ hour rental rate means you are going to need to sell it for close to what you paid. And if you buy a cheap one and it turns out to need expensive maintenance in between, you are seriously in the hole.

It can and has been done to work out advantageously, but you need to understand the risks before going down that path.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a plane for the sole reason of time building. There would need to be other considerations like availability/exclusive use...etc.
 
Here's another way to look at it:

$110/hour for 100 hrs is $11k. That is the known quantity that you have to beat.

Depending on your location (hangar/tie down cost) and your maintenance skills, $11k per year for 100 hours can be hard to beat. Throw in a surprise maintenance bill that runs you a couple grand and having to sell it for $5k less than you paid in order to move it quickly and you are behind financially.

It is a lot easier to budget for the known quantity than the surprises you might run into with airplane ownership. Remember, when the alternator, mag or vacuum pump fails out of the blue, you can't bring the airplane back to the FBO and go exchange it for another.

Don't get me wrong -airplane ownership can be a great thing (I'm a 4 time airplane owner myself). But it isn't always the cheapest way to build time.
 
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Are you buying it just to build time? Or will you be using it to finish training and use it for your CPL ride?
 
Fearless Tower said:
He'd need a retract to use it for his CPL training/ride.
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That's why I was asking that, because neither of the airplanes he mentioned would work if he was planning to use it for the checkride. I assume he's just needing something to build time in.
 
I would use it to get my time up to the 250 range and then rent an Arrow to finish CPL training and take the checkride in. I looked into the costs a couple months back but I'm going to update my numbers to see where things stand. The main reason this idea came up again was I thought if I could snag a 152 or warrior that was recently overhauled and out of annual, do my time and jump out as soon as possible but I completely understand where you guys are coming from with the unexpected maintenance items.

That's where I was curious about the leaseback option. The school at the airport is definitely short on 152's and warriors so could I save some there? They also have a pretty well known maintenance facility onsite so I thought it might be possible to wrap something into a leaseback agreement.
 
Marz, what is your ultimate goal?
If you just want to get to 250 hours to get a CPL, it doesn't really matter what plane, as long as it flies, I am thinking.
If you have future aviation career goals, you might benefit from a complex retract airplane because those hours count a little better than those in a 150.
"So you gotta ask yourself one question ... " :D
 
BigBadLou said:
Marz, what is your ultimate goal?
If you just want to get to 250 hours to get a CPL, it doesn't really matter what plane, as long as it flies, I am thinking.
If you have future aviation career goals, you might benefit from a complex retract airplane because those hours count a little better than those in a 150.
"So you gotta ask yourself one question ... " :D
Click to expand...

The ultimate goal is to be an airline pilot but the shorter term goals are commercial and most likely CFI so I can start getting paid to fly as soon as possible. This has been a dream since childhood that I lost sight of growing up but now I've saved up enough to go after it (responsibly). I left my pretty well paying job last summer, still working but not bringing in the sort of income that I had and I just turned 26. I don't see this upcoming 10-15k as a waste by any means but I've been pretty smart with my money up to this point and if there is a more efficient way to achieve the same thing I would like to entertain the idea. I'm not too enthusiastic about sitting in a 152 for 100 hours but if it gets the job done then so be it, I just want to be on my way!
 
Marz7490 said:
The ultimate goal is to be an airline pilot but the shorter term goals are commercial and most likely CFI so I can start getting paid to fly as soon as possible.
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If this is really your goal, you will most likely come out ahead financially and with fewer headaches along the way by just planning on renting for the hundred hours you need to take your commercial and get your CFI.

I don't want to discourage ownership, but buying an airplane requires a big commitment. If your goal is to put in your time and move on to the big league, owning an airplane can really be a drag.
 
BigBadLou said:
Marz, what is your ultimate goal?
If you just want to get to 250 hours to get a CPL, it doesn't really matter what plane, as long as it flies, I am thinking.
If you have future aviation career goals, you might benefit from a complex retract airplane because those hours count a little better than those in a 150.
"So you gotta ask yourself one question ... " :D
Click to expand...

Not really

No one really cares abiut complex and RG time, I've filled out the box a few times for insurance in my career, both as a low time and later as a higher time guy, no one really gave a hoot.

Now tailwheel or float hours can help, if you're going down that path

But for the most part a greenhorn CPL is a greenhorn CPL.

Get a champ, C120/140, fly lots at night, fly REAL cross countries, life from one side to another, fly to Canada or Mexico, fly to Cuba. That'll help you tons.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If this is really your goal, you will most likely come out ahead financially and with fewer headaches along the way by just planning on renting for the hundred hours you need to take your commercial and get your CFI.

I don't want to discourage ownership, but buying an airplane requires a big commitment. If your goal is to put in your time and move on to the big league, owning an airplane can really be a drag.
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That's what I've been coming back to but I'm also optimistic and kind of want to give it a try haha!

James331 said:
Not really

No one really cares abiut complex and RG time, I've filled out the box a few times for insurance in my career, both as a low time and later as a higher time guy, no one really gave a hoot.

Now tailwheel or float hours can help, if you're going down that path

But for the most part a greenhorn CPL is a greenhorn CPL.

Get a champ, C120/140, fly lots at night, fly REAL cross countries, life from one side to another, fly to Canada or Mexico, fly to Cuba. That'll help you tons.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I've been wanting to find a Citabria after doing spin training in one. Also thought about a 140 or something but was thinking that it might be a little slow for x country time. I'll keep my eye out for some 140's and Citabria's for now and go from there.
 
Marz7490 said:
That's what I've been coming back to but I'm also optimistic and kind of want to give it a try haha!



Thanks for the response. I've been wanting to find a Citabria after doing spin training in one. Also thought about a 140 or something but was thinking that it might be a little slow for x country time. I'll keep my eye out for some 140's and Citabria's for now and go from there.
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Slow for cross country time???

You're BUILDING HOURS RIGHT?!

What you're looking for is hour to fuel/mx ratio.

I've flown 100kt planes across this country before, low and slow, good times, builds great skills.

A 7ECA would be ideal, I'd also work on backcountry ops, it builds great skills, is super fun, will make you stand out from other ink wet CPLs and the skills could very well save your bacon one day.
 
James331 said:
Slow for cross country time???

You're BUILDING HOURS RIGHT?!

What you're looking for is hour to fuel/mx ratio.

I've flown 100kt planes across this country before, low and slow, good times, builds great skills.

A 7ECA would be ideal, I'd also work on backcountry ops, it builds great skills, is super fun, will make you stand out from other ink wet CPLs and the skills could very well save your bacon one day.
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Haha well said! I'll have to keep searching for a taildragger as all of that sounds extremely fun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Marz7490 said:
Haha well said! I'll have to keep searching for a taildragger as all of that sounds extremely fun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Now we're getting somewhere!

Here's the deal: if you are simply looking for the cheapest route to your goal, buying an airplane is probably not going to get you there.

On the other hand, if you are looking to have the most fun while gaining the most experience, then airplane ownership is the way to go and I'd agree that you are better off getting a 140/170 or Citabria or Champ than 150/172/PA28.
 
Thanks again for the feedback guys, I'll be sure to share what I end up doing!
 
Yes, this is my first post and it's a long one...but here's my background on this issue.

Back in 2014, I decided to finally get working on my pilot stuff in order to move me from Tactical Flight Officer to Pilot seat flying law enforcement fixed wings. I needed to get my private, instrument and commercial with at least 300 PIC hours to even attempt to get a pilot spot. I was starting with only 6 hours of 'logged' time, and a large handful of 'no-logged' time. I did a lot of research and looked at a lot of flight schools. One guy at work, who owns two planes, sat me down one day and convinced me to buy a plane for my training. I was real scared at taking the "risk", but its been so much more enjoyable...sometimes scary, must mostly enjoyable. Disclaimer: NOT always the best for everyone...but for me, working out good.

Here is a very rough (and high) estimate of what I've spent so far since Nov 2014 up to August 2016:

Found a super clean Grumman AA-5: $30,000
Shade hangar (8 months) $720
T-hangar (12 months) $2800
Insurance (2 years premium) $1700
Front tire blowout $500
New cylinder $2000
1st annual (with brake job) $2200
2nd annual (currently) $2000
oil/filter/misc mx $500
SUBTOTAL $42,420

Currently, I have 156 hours in Grumman, got my PPL at 55 hours:

Instructor time (40 flight/20 ground approx) $3700
Gas ($4.50 gal average for 156 flight hours @ 7 GPH) $4915
SUBTOTAL: $8615

OWN PLANE TOTAL (so far to get PPL with 156 hours): $51,035

If I went to the closest local (to me) flight school, the BEST lower average rate would be ($135 hr 172 & $65 hr CFI)
55 hours @ $200 hr wet with CFI $11,000
101 hours time build rental $13,635
Renters insurance (no clue how much) $250 ?
FLIGHT SCHOOL RENTAL TOTAL $24,885

So, the way I look at it...I'm ahead almost $4000, because I still have the airplane asset still worth about $30K+ and I still need to build 150+ more hours and 2 more ratings (I know I'll need to rent a complex)
PLUS, the airplane is only flown by ME and available whenever I want to fly and my home airport is 10 mins away, where the best flight school is 40 mins away.
AND, flying my Grumman is so much more fun than a beat up flight school 172!!

So, if you find a good plane that seems reasonable, then it may be the way to go...
 
If all you're looking for is to build time, why bother with anything more expensive than something like this?

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1358723/1998-quad-city-challenger-ii

Just a random example pulled off the internet. It's an actual N-registered airplane, maintenance should be pretty cheap, fuel really cheap, and a whole lot of fun too. The point is that there are lots of airplanes out there for really cheap, that aren't considered because they're basically N-registered "ultralights".

Or how about this? http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...+SPECIFIED&listing_id=2191318&s-type=aircraft
 
RussR said:
If all you're looking for is to build time, why bother with anything more expensive than something like this?

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1358723/1998-quad-city-challenger-ii

Just a random example pulled off the internet. It's an actual N-registered airplane, maintenance should be pretty cheap, fuel really cheap, and a whole lot of fun too. The point is that there are lots of airplanes out there for really cheap, that aren't considered because they're basically N-registered "ultralights".
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Problem with ultralights and time building is that there are a lot of days when you can't fly because of the weather.

You can go fly in 20 kt winds in a Citabria just fine. You aren't going to do that in an ultralight.
 
Roaddawg said:
Yes, this is my first post and it's a long one...but here's my background on this issue.

So, if you find a good plane that seems reasonable, then it may be the way to go... (Shortened)
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Thanks for the very in depth post, that will definitely keep me thinking.

Fearless Tower said:
Problem with ultralights and time building is that there are a lot of days when you can't fly because of the weather.

You can go fly in 20 kt winds in a Citabria just fine. You aren't going to do that in an ultralight.
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Agreed and it doesn't seem like an ultralight is very marketable for resale. I'm on the citabria hunt and am going to talk to a guy I know with a 140 to see what his thoughts are. 140's are pretty cheap with fresh overhauls so that might be the way to go... unless the right citabria pops up!
 
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