Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I suspect it was more a matter of not getting too far in before I noticed and corrected, combined with not causing a loss of separation.
My operation in and in close proximity to class B airspace was a primary reason I put DME In my plane 20+ years ago (GPS wasn't quite ready for prime time yet). Oddly, there were a few class B's whose rings are not predicated on a DME distance (though the one that comes to mind CLE now is listed as distances from the ILS-DME). There are a few class C's around with no ground navaid in the center of them.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
The currently proposed changes to the SFO class B do away with many (or all?) of the DME-defined boundaries. The SJC class C boundaries have always differed from the DME-defined distances by about a mile in some directions.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hmmm.
azure
Final Approach
Sounds like you've been lucky (more than once)!
The closest I've ever come to busting a Bravo was several years ago (2008-9 ish) on a night IFR training flight in the Detroit area. We were going to file IFR to shoot approaches "for real" (in the system) at Mettetal (1D2) and Willow Run (KYIP), but we also needed fuel, which at the time was very expensive at home base and much cheaper at 1D2. We had also discussed the rarely-used option of a through clearance, and I came up with the idea to file and request a through clearance to KYIP via 1D2, putting "fuel stop at 1D2" in the remarks. My CFII was (wisely) dubious of the plan, but reluctantly agreed. They gave us our clearance, I let ATC know we'd be making a brief stop at 1D2 and continuing on, we flew the RNAV 18 and landed, quickly fueled and took off on 18.
Now a quick look at the chart will show you that the Detroit Bravo surface area starts just a few scant miles south of 1D2. On departure I had a difficult time raising Approach, but being a rookie, and thinking we HAD to still be IFR, I wasn't too concerned. My CFII, though, was very nervous. In a minute or so he'd had enough and said "Liz, this is f*cked", took over the controls and did a Commercial right steep turn to get us the hell out of there. I think we missed clipping the Bravo by less than a quarter mile, if that.
We sped northbound away from the area and finally raised Approach. At that point it became clear that my CFII was right, they'd forgotten all about us and our IFR was "lost in the aether". I don't remember whether we got a pop-up to continue or just returned home VFR (it was a clear night). But it was a good lesson to me to never assume that ATC and I are on the same page, and in fact to assume that we're not if there are any indications that things just don't seem right.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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MAKG
I clipped the SFO B once as a student pilot. It has lots of edges over terrain, and it's not very hard to do. Fortunately, the traffic is heavily concentrated in a few areas, like right over the Bay.
orange
Line Up and Wait
And with Bluetooth, as soon as you land, it will even have your cell phone dial a number for you.
aggie06
Line Up and Wait
What happens if you bust bravo in a club plane because you weren't used to the way a 182 climbs compared to a 172? Would the FAA go look at the schedule to see who was renting at that time? If they haven't done anything in 8 months, you think they gave up? Asking for a friend...
Kritchlow
Final Approach
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Kritchlow
A half dozen times??
Perhaps some remedial training is in order.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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MAKG
If it caused a TCAS RA, they might.
I've caused a TCAS just being 500' above the Chicago class B. I was even getting radar services at the time.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Once the FAA had the tail number, I presume that they would contact the registered owner, and the end result would be that the club would look at the schedule and provide the pilot's contact information. I don't see how it would take eight months.
Did your friend file an ASRS report? One of the benefits of doing so, even after the ten day deadline for sanction immunity has passed, is that the form prompts the person to consider "what you believe really caused the problem, and what can be done to prevent a recurrence, or correct the situation."
Don't know about class B incursions, but I've gotten calls as the airport manager (and I've been around a differnet airport manager) when the calls come in about someone departing or arriving our field that went through a P-area or TFR.
aggie06
Line Up and Wait
Friend filed ASRS report as soon as he landed. He had departed an uncontrolled field and landed at another uncontrolled field before returning to the controlled field the club was based at. He knows better now and actually bought a 182 so he is used to the climb performance.
A
Airspace Close Calls
Guest
I've had a couple close calls with the airspace in SoCal.
The first, I wasn't really in danger of busting but it made me feel like a jerk. I was coming back from my long cross country to Harris Ranch (3O8) for my commercial and was climbing through Avenal (AVE) along V107 in a Grumman Tiger without GPS so I was shooting for close to MEA (11,000') even though I was VFR to ensure I had good navaid. Now 11,000 is about 80% of service ceiling for the Tiger and it certainly isn't fast getting there.
I actually had the Tiger up nearly at its service ceiling of 13,800' earlier in the day thanks to some clouds over the sierra nevadas, in fact I think I worried ATC a bit there too since I was at 10,500 on flight following through the MOA and mountains and was advised to contact Oakland Center when able only to run into a wall of clouds that blocked my path and required a good 10-15 minutes of circling without radio contact to climb the 3000 ft to service ceiling to get above at which point center came in and I could hear them asking for me, but I digress...
So there I was at 11,500' on V107 enroute to Fillmore puttering along in my 145mph Tiger. About 10 miles out of Fillmore I switch over to SoCal to pick up flight following and was hoping for a lower altitude transition through the LAX Bravo only to hear ATC talking to a regional jet about a VFR aircraft off their right side, same altitude and 10 miles out from Fillmore... Im like gee that sounds like me so I quickly jump on the radio and start talking to control. Sure enough it was me and they had been vectoring aircraft around me for the last 20 minutes as I was right on the arrival corridor for the SADDE SEVEN STAR which was in some pretty heavy use thanks to some storms that had rolled through LAX while I was at dinner. I apologized and the controller was very nice about it, he said I wasn't doing anything wrong (which I didnt think I was) and they just didnt know what I was doing, where I was going and I wasn't on freq. I decided I had added enough work load to the controllers enough for one evening and kept my 11,500' altitude above the Bravo until I got to the other side of LAX where I cleared through t
The next closest I've come to busting an airspace was on a night flight to Brown (KSDM) which is 2 NM north of Tijuana airport (MMTJ) on the other side of the US/Mexico Border. It was also my first flight down to the border area so I had asked for in addition to clearance through the Bravo around KSAN, I asked for flight following which I got and was given some headings to fly which I had some difficulty doing thanks to a HSI that unknown to me would get stuck when turning between certain headings resulting in huge DG errors. So I was a bit distracted with diagnosing my heading issue coupled with flying an unexpected course down to the south end of the San Diego bay (I had planned to go direct POGGI VOR once past KSAN) when SoCal advised flight following was cancelled and Brown was to my left and 5 miles. I look out to my left and see what I think is Brown at my 10 o'clock. I made a left turn towards the airport and was flying along in my 130mph Arrow thinking how remarkably straight the line of lights in front of me is... Suddenly my skydiving training kicks in and I remember straightlines dont occur in nature but fences do... What I was looking at was the bright lights of the US side of the border compared to the dark openness on the Mexican side of the border and realized the airport I was headed towards was distinctly on the other side of that divide. I quickly found Brown, now over my left shoulder between my 7 and 8 o'clock and landed without further issue. I was probably a few seconds from entering the ADIZ.
I had North Island Tower once clear me for the Bay tour and was advised to keep offshore and avoid overflight of the docked ships but I dont recall receiving an affirmative clearance into the Bravo surface area over the bay just to the northeast of NZY but considering North Island coordinates the clearance in that area, Im going with I either missed their clearance or they just didnt positively state I was cleared into the Bravo as nobody complained and I didnt get in trouble for it (plus I did exactly what they told me to do).
By far the closest I've come to busting the Bravo was with my CFII on a missed approach out of Montgomery (KMYF). We were on the ILS 28R and had briefed with the controller we would follow the missed approach procedure to MZB radial and return to the North VFR. The missed approach called for a climb to 1100, then a climbing left turn to 3000' via heading 270 to intercept R-326 off MZB out to CARIF.
In the cockpit, we briefed the Bravo floor was at 4800' where we were and it increases as you get further away however, we had gotten a little complacent doing IFR training and having flown the route so frequently at lower altitudes VFR below the Bravo that we forgot to brief the ceiling of the Miramar bravo over the coast and forgot exactly what it was.
The Bravo in that area has a little cut-out for Miramar with a floor of 1800' and a ceiling 3200' with the larger San Diego Bravo having a floor of 6800' and a ceiling of 10000'. So there we were at 3000' on 326 scrambling to pull up the VFR chart and trying to quickly climb to clear the bravo (it was 50/50 whether to dive for the deck or climb for the sky... we guessed the ceiling was less than 4000' as we knew it was a sizeable corridor and that it allowed you to come out below the bravo where we were which was 4800) I dont know if we busted or not but we didnt hear anything. Either we successfully climbed out of it before the bravo, we corrected quickly enough or the controller recognized us flying the missed approach at 3000' because we never heard anything about it.
Particularly with the first 2 scenarios, even though the first one was far from a bust, these were all learning experiences. The 3rd one was almost certainly a miscommunication but the 4th was definitely a reminder not to get complacent in familiar areas and a reminder to be careful with how practice approaches will terminate.
The first, I wasn't really in danger of busting but it made me feel like a jerk. I was coming back from my long cross country to Harris Ranch (3O8) for my commercial and was climbing through Avenal (AVE) along V107 in a Grumman Tiger without GPS so I was shooting for close to MEA (11,000') even though I was VFR to ensure I had good navaid. Now 11,000 is about 80% of service ceiling for the Tiger and it certainly isn't fast getting there.
I actually had the Tiger up nearly at its service ceiling of 13,800' earlier in the day thanks to some clouds over the sierra nevadas, in fact I think I worried ATC a bit there too since I was at 10,500 on flight following through the MOA and mountains and was advised to contact Oakland Center when able only to run into a wall of clouds that blocked my path and required a good 10-15 minutes of circling without radio contact to climb the 3000 ft to service ceiling to get above at which point center came in and I could hear them asking for me, but I digress...
So there I was at 11,500' on V107 enroute to Fillmore puttering along in my 145mph Tiger. About 10 miles out of Fillmore I switch over to SoCal to pick up flight following and was hoping for a lower altitude transition through the LAX Bravo only to hear ATC talking to a regional jet about a VFR aircraft off their right side, same altitude and 10 miles out from Fillmore... Im like gee that sounds like me so I quickly jump on the radio and start talking to control. Sure enough it was me and they had been vectoring aircraft around me for the last 20 minutes as I was right on the arrival corridor for the SADDE SEVEN STAR which was in some pretty heavy use thanks to some storms that had rolled through LAX while I was at dinner. I apologized and the controller was very nice about it, he said I wasn't doing anything wrong (which I didnt think I was) and they just didnt know what I was doing, where I was going and I wasn't on freq. I decided I had added enough work load to the controllers enough for one evening and kept my 11,500' altitude above the Bravo until I got to the other side of LAX where I cleared through t
The next closest I've come to busting an airspace was on a night flight to Brown (KSDM) which is 2 NM north of Tijuana airport (MMTJ) on the other side of the US/Mexico Border. It was also my first flight down to the border area so I had asked for in addition to clearance through the Bravo around KSAN, I asked for flight following which I got and was given some headings to fly which I had some difficulty doing thanks to a HSI that unknown to me would get stuck when turning between certain headings resulting in huge DG errors. So I was a bit distracted with diagnosing my heading issue coupled with flying an unexpected course down to the south end of the San Diego bay (I had planned to go direct POGGI VOR once past KSAN) when SoCal advised flight following was cancelled and Brown was to my left and 5 miles. I look out to my left and see what I think is Brown at my 10 o'clock. I made a left turn towards the airport and was flying along in my 130mph Arrow thinking how remarkably straight the line of lights in front of me is... Suddenly my skydiving training kicks in and I remember straightlines dont occur in nature but fences do... What I was looking at was the bright lights of the US side of the border compared to the dark openness on the Mexican side of the border and realized the airport I was headed towards was distinctly on the other side of that divide. I quickly found Brown, now over my left shoulder between my 7 and 8 o'clock and landed without further issue. I was probably a few seconds from entering the ADIZ.
I had North Island Tower once clear me for the Bay tour and was advised to keep offshore and avoid overflight of the docked ships but I dont recall receiving an affirmative clearance into the Bravo surface area over the bay just to the northeast of NZY but considering North Island coordinates the clearance in that area, Im going with I either missed their clearance or they just didnt positively state I was cleared into the Bravo as nobody complained and I didnt get in trouble for it (plus I did exactly what they told me to do).
By far the closest I've come to busting the Bravo was with my CFII on a missed approach out of Montgomery (KMYF). We were on the ILS 28R and had briefed with the controller we would follow the missed approach procedure to MZB radial and return to the North VFR. The missed approach called for a climb to 1100, then a climbing left turn to 3000' via heading 270 to intercept R-326 off MZB out to CARIF.
In the cockpit, we briefed the Bravo floor was at 4800' where we were and it increases as you get further away however, we had gotten a little complacent doing IFR training and having flown the route so frequently at lower altitudes VFR below the Bravo that we forgot to brief the ceiling of the Miramar bravo over the coast and forgot exactly what it was.
The Bravo in that area has a little cut-out for Miramar with a floor of 1800' and a ceiling 3200' with the larger San Diego Bravo having a floor of 6800' and a ceiling of 10000'. So there we were at 3000' on 326 scrambling to pull up the VFR chart and trying to quickly climb to clear the bravo (it was 50/50 whether to dive for the deck or climb for the sky... we guessed the ceiling was less than 4000' as we knew it was a sizeable corridor and that it allowed you to come out below the bravo where we were which was 4800) I dont know if we busted or not but we didnt hear anything. Either we successfully climbed out of it before the bravo, we corrected quickly enough or the controller recognized us flying the missed approach at 3000' because we never heard anything about it.
Particularly with the first 2 scenarios, even though the first one was far from a bust, these were all learning experiences. The 3rd one was almost certainly a miscommunication but the 4th was definitely a reminder not to get complacent in familiar areas and a reminder to be careful with how practice approaches will terminate.
slacktide
Line Up and Wait
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Display name:
Dan
My office is on the site of a former Bomarc launch facility... it's even called the Bomarc building.
http://radomes.org/museum/recent/PaineAFBBOMARCWA.html
danhagan
En-Route
Happens to the professionals too ... last fall SWA night flight Austin to El Paso on approach to RWY 4 I could tell there was a problem (way too close downwind). I was on the right side of the plane and saw them line up and descend for short final at Biggs Army Airfield (REILs on but no runway lights). El Paso leaves there's on the lowest setting unless you request higher. Both fields have similar runway alignments of their NE-SW runways which are only 3 miles apart. We did a go around and the KELP lights were so dim they were nearly invisible as we over-flew on the go around.