Building large garage/shop

cowman

cowman

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Cowman
Sitting here bored as I wait to take possession on a new house. I know a lot of guys here are into this stuff so I'll throw this out.

New property I've just bought and will be moving to over the next couple months is lacking in any kind of garage. I planned on building one. I want something fairly big to park at least 3 vehicles in. Want extra space for tools and a work area... I do a lot of hobby stuff and have a full restoration project I'm going to be starting as soon as the space is ready. Thinking in the neighborhood of 30x40'.

I'm thinking about what kind of construction I want... traditional sick built, pole barn, or steel building... that's my biggest question. I do want power and insulation. Probably will put in an add-on wood furnace for heat. I may try to get someone to build the main structure for me and then do all the insulation/electric/finishing myself. Obviously will want concrete poured... and will probably epoxy cover it myself.

This is out in the country in a rural community so probably will just need a very basic building permit. They don't really inspect anything out there. This is west-central IL so climate is pretty much middle of the road... some hot summer days, some snow and cold days in the winter but overall relatively mild. I might be able to find some Amish workers to put it up too... which would probably save some costs.

Never built anything before, mainly just know the result I'm looking for. Anybody got any thoughts?
 
I had these folks make me a Gambrel http://www.tuffshed.com/products_prices.cfm?ModelID=GB&TabID=Prices shell which I pretty much finished.

They come out one day and take measurements, then come out again with a few trucks full of stuff, and in a few days it's up. Price was right, and the construction is ok. It's not the garage-mahal, but it serves a purpose. I was able to put in the stuff I wanted like a 2 post lift, and I still have some storage in the loft area. I did 24 x 30, and now wish I had done 24 x 36 but I still like it fine. It fits in well with most country situations.

Get the best roof material they have, the first stuff that came on the truck I rejected, as it was falling apart right in the bag. They had to go get the best shingles they had, and it cost me a few extra bucks but I don't skimp on roofing.
 
Whatever size you decide on, add 50% to it.

I have a 24x48, and it's still not big enough.
 
The one thing you absolutely want to do is insulate. I insulated my hangar because it has radiant heat in the slab. I didn't do the garage (unheated) and I regret it. Even in the summer or when the heat's not on in the winter, the hangar stays more confortable.

My hangar is stick built with a long steel beam midspan (with my chain hoist trolley on it) and another steel lintel over the hangar door.
 
EdFred said:
Whatever size you decide on, add 50% to it.

I have a 24x48, and it's still not big enough.
Click to expand...

That's basically what I was going to say, figure how big you need then go 10' bigger.

Shop around for steel buildings, you can get a lot of clear span structure for not so much money. Doors can get expensive if you a roll-up or custom size.
 
Talk to the Amish builders, great quality, fast and reasonable prices. Did one at my last house, 20 x 28, 8' walls, 3 windows, 36" door and barn doors. Less than half what a coworker paid for a garage.
 
flyingron said:
The one thing you absolutely want to do is insulate. I insulated my hangar because it has radiant heat in the slab. I didn't do the garage (unheated) and I regret it. Even in the summer or when the heat's not on in the winter, the hangar stays more confortable.

My hangar is stick built with a long steel beam midspan (with my chain hoist trolley on it) and another steel lintel over the hangar door.
Click to expand...


Best answer yet.....:thumbsup:
 
Insulate. Allow for a lift in the slab, perhaps a drain. If you anticipate any sort of trailer in the building (boat, car hualer, etc) consider a drive through option (doors at both ends).
 
We have a 30x50 pole barn with the std 3-car arrangement on the front 50', although they are 10' tall doors. We also have a sliding side door on the 30' side which allows us to get a full 12' to the bottom of the trusses. Radiant heat in the slab is an excellent suggestion and I wouldn't mess with insulating it any other way than the spray-foam. The tiny Styrofoam insulating sheets they adhere to the corrugated steel does almost nothing. Run plenty of outlets and a couple of 220V lines in case you want to run a welder or shop air compressor. I recommend T5 light fixtures, we have 10 dual-bulb fixtures in ours and the light is uniform and very bright.

With the 30x50 in our configuration, we have a 20 runabout in one bay. A zero-turn mower, a Kubota compact tractor and implements, and a jet ski in half of the 2-car bay. The other half of the 2-car bay has a 20' flatbed trailer in it, and the rest of the ~20x30 area is filled with workbenches, projects, and tools. We also have a lean-to on the back side which is great for shade and dirtier projects (I painted the boat trailer in it last summer).

So, build it bigger than you think you will need and design it so that you can utilize the space. If I wanted to pull a 40' cruiser in the shop, we could due to the sliding side door, but wouldn't be able to using just the regular garage doors on the front. You can always go red iron but the pole barns will last 100 years with no problem.
 
cowman said:
Sitting here bored as I wait to take possession on a new house. I know a lot of guys here are into this stuff so I'll throw this out.

New property I've just bought and will be moving to over the next couple months is lacking in any kind of garage. I planned on building one. I want something fairly big to park at least 3 vehicles in. Want extra space for tools and a work area... I do a lot of hobby stuff and have a full restoration project I'm going to be starting as soon as the space is ready. Thinking in the neighborhood of 30x40'.

I'm thinking about what kind of construction I want... traditional sick built, pole barn, or steel building... that's my biggest question. I do want power and insulation. Probably will put in an add-on wood furnace for heat. I may try to get someone to build the main structure for me and then do all the insulation/electric/finishing myself. Obviously will want concrete poured... and will probably epoxy cover it myself.

This is out in the country in a rural community so probably will just need a very basic building permit. They don't really inspect anything out there. This is west-central IL so climate is pretty much middle of the road... some hot summer days, some snow and cold days in the winter but overall relatively mild. I might be able to find some Amish workers to put it up too... which would probably save some costs.

Never built anything before, mainly just know the result I'm looking for. Anybody got any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I did a steel pole barn out of drill stem and flow pipe then covered it with sheet metal.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Radiant floor heat. You will thank me later. Bury the PEX tubing deep and insulate the slab.
Click to expand...

DO THIS!!!! Even if you wait to install the actual floor heat run the tubes it costs a few hundred more to do yourself but they will always be there. You can't do it once its poured. PUT IN FLOOR DRAINS!

A great site is the garage journal forum. (mods delete if this isn't allowed) It is great. everything you could need to know about garages and shops has been discussed. I know there are a few RV pilots that drop in from time to time.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/
 
I can see the use in floor drains if you commonly wash things indoors, but what other purpose does it serve? We just spray out the floor through the door openings.
 
You have had several recommendations to insulate. Be aware that typical air permeable insulation has to be aligned with and in contact with a continuous air barrier in order for it to function.

Your roof insulation / air barrier layers could go at the roof sheathing or at the ceiling plane. Identify which layers in your roof and wall assemblies make the best most continuous air barrier and make sure it seals to the air barrier in the roof area.

A well insulated and weather stripped garage door is required to complete the package.

Metal buildings can be a great solution but they are far more difficult to insulate well.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I can see the use in floor drains if you commonly wash things indoors, but what other purpose does it serve? We just spray out the floor through the door openings.
Click to expand...

In cold climates that means ice on the driveway to spray it outside. OR the best thing is a heated garage melts off snow and ice and you need someplace for that to go. This will change with climate obviously. I also find that water cleans up better than a broom in a shop. Hose the floor down and no dust! Also distance to the door can be a big deal.



Look at spray foam companies for insulation takes them a couple hours and its done. It's sweet. My uncle just had his pole barn down and now you would swear its a steel building. It seems much more solid and warm in winter/cool in summer.
 
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Hmm, I've thought about heat. I was thinking for heat I'd do something like this:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395370_200395370
Radiant heat is a good thing, I'm just thinking I don't need to have a climate controlled space, just something comfortable to work in and that's a cheaper way to go than a boiler setup.

Drains are a good thought. I have been waffling about running water out there... a simple wash basin would be handy. Then again I'd need to shut off the water or keep the heat going during the winter and I won't be there daily.

220 is a must, already have a 220 welder. My air compressor is a 110 but I might upgrade down the road. Def gonna have lots of outlets.

Lighting wise I was considering LED as an option but I'm not sure how well those scale to a shop. I've seen T5 form factor LED lights for sale.

Space is prob going to be ok... at first I was looking smaller- leaning towards just an oversized 2-car garage. The property has several small storage sheds and one old woodworking shop that unfortunately doesn't meet my needs but will be great for general storage of items that can fit through man-sized doors. There's a lean-to on that building. I think I can get my Mustang under it... anything much longer or taller than that I'm doubtful of. Anyway I'd been thinking like 32x32 but then I figured hey another 10' and I have another car or two worth of space in there so why not go 30x40ish?

Probably need to start talking to area contractors but no idea who to go to. I want to figure out what this costs and the internet hasn't been helpful... what I see just googling around seems to be all over the place.


sooo much to think about
 
cowman said:
Hmm, I've thought about heat. I was thinking for heat I'd do something like this:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395370_200395370
Radiant heat is a good thing, I'm just thinking I don't need to have a climate controlled space, just something comfortable to work in and that's a cheaper way to go than a boiler setup.

Drains are a good thought. I have been waffling about running water out there... a simple wash basin would be handy. Then again I'd need to shut off the water or keep the heat going during the winter and I won't be there daily.

220 is a must, already have a 220 welder. My air compressor is a 110 but I might upgrade down the road. Def gonna have lots of outlets.

Lighting wise I was considering LED as an option but I'm not sure how well those scale to a shop. I've seen T5 form factor LED lights for sale.

Space is prob going to be ok... at first I was looking smaller- leaning towards just an oversized 2-car garage. The property has several small storage sheds and one old woodworking shop that unfortunately doesn't meet my needs but will be great for general storage of items that can fit through man-sized doors. There's a lean-to on that building. I think I can get my Mustang under it... anything much longer or taller than that I'm doubtful of. Anyway I'd been thinking like 32x32 but then I figured hey another 10' and I have another car or two worth of space in there so why not go 30x40ish?

Probably need to start talking to area contractors but no idea who to go to. I want to figure out what this costs and the internet hasn't been helpful... what I see just googling around seems to be all over the place.


sooo much to think about
Click to expand...

My buddy has one of those stoves and it is awesome. One thing to watch out for is your insurance rates will go UP with anything wood burning.

I had a pellet stove in my last shop a 30X30 it would warm the air up great but my tools were always cold because I would always just turn it on when I wanted heat. No fun when you grab a wrench out of the tool box and its still at -5 and the room is at 50 and your hand sticks. I always had to wear muck boots when out there because the floor was always still so cold.

I think the advantages of being able to set the floor heat on a boiler at 40 degrees and leave it and bump that up when you want to outweighs the costs. A halfway warm floor is worth every penny. Especially if you have to lay down on the floor or even close to it like on a creeper for any length of time. Another thing if you keep it just above freezing batteries last longer in things like power tools, Riding lawn movers, etc. You can also leave liquids like paint out there and they won't freeze.
 
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I have had numerous different warehouses of varying types of construction for my company as we moved around and grew...several were steel buildings. I can tell ya those amplify the outside temperature on the inside (even insulated) on both the hot and cold extremes.

They may me cheaper, but unless cost was the single driving factor I personnaly would not build a steel building garage for myself having been in those types of buildings through the different seasons...and I live in a very mild climate!

Best interior climate warehouse we I have ever had was insulated traditional stick construction.
 
Yeah, the only time we have water in the shop is when we're spraying out the dust/etc on the floor. Usually a shop broom or squeegee will make quick work of any water and air dry the rest. We don't generally care if it turns to ice outside the shop as it's mostly grass anyway.

The other big bonus of even moderate insulation is noise/drafts. Wind makes a racket on metal buildings, and even small gaps can let in cold air. The insulation makes it a much quieter area to work in. I'm not big on wood-burning stoves in my shop, but we use propane/kerosene heaters when we intend to be out there in the cold for any prolonged period of time.

Side note: don't forget to wire in some exterior lighting as well, even just for security lights.
 
And run conduit for lots of lights, overhead and if you're going to do any painting of your resto projects, lights on the walls where your ersatz "paint booth" will be. Can't have too much light if you're going to shoot color.
 
The choice of heat depends on how you expect to use the building. If you keep it continuously heated or you are willing to wait a couple of hours between when you turn on the heat and when you start using the building, then floor heat or wood heat will work well. If, OTOH, you want to flip the heat and start working fairly immediately, then you need something that will get the place warm fairly quickly. In my previous garage I had an oversized hanging gas furnace that would get the place warm in a hurry. In my current garage I have the overhead tube gas infrared type. It doesn't heat the air as fast, but the infrared makes me feel warm almost immediately. A quick search gave me this page: http://thermalinc.com/comfort/garageindex.htm which illustrates both types.

The other thing to remember is that if you're using the heat on only an occasional basis, efficiency isn't worth paying much for. Run the numbers of course but an expensive high efficiency furnace that will run only a hundred or two hours a year will probably never generate a payback.

Finally, run enough electricity. If you ever want to weld in there, a 40amp service will not be enough for any serious machine. Run 100amps; it will not cost much more than lighter service and it will not limit your capabilities.

Edit: I just noticed your comment about LED lighting. Same recommendation: Run the numbers but with occasional use you will probably never get a payback on LEDs.
 
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Check out the forums over at garagejournal.com. tons of info there.

Keith
 
cowman said:
Hmm, I've thought about heat. I was thinking for heat I'd do something like this:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395370_200395370
Radiant heat is a good thing, I'm just thinking I don't need to have a climate controlled space, just something comfortable to work in and that's a cheaper way to go than a boiler setup.

Drains are a good thought. I have been waffling about running water out there... a simple wash basin would be handy. Then again I'd need to shut off the water or keep the heat going during the winter and I won't be there daily.

220 is a must, already have a 220 welder. My air compressor is a 110 but I might upgrade down the road. Def gonna have lots of outlets.

Lighting wise I was considering LED as an option but I'm not sure how well those scale to a shop. I've seen T5 form factor LED lights for sale.

Space is prob going to be ok... at first I was looking smaller- leaning towards just an oversized 2-car garage. The property has several small storage sheds and one old woodworking shop that unfortunately doesn't meet my needs but will be great for general storage of items that can fit through man-sized doors. There's a lean-to on that building. I think I can get my Mustang under it... anything much longer or taller than that I'm doubtful of. Anyway I'd been thinking like 32x32 but then I figured hey another 10' and I have another car or two worth of space in there so why not go 30x40ish?

Probably need to start talking to area contractors but no idea who to go to. I want to figure out what this costs and the internet hasn't been helpful... what I see just googling around seems to be all over the place.


sooo much to think about
Click to expand...

Radiant floor heating opens the possibility for passive solar heating, and there is nothing nicer working in the winter than a heated floor.:yes:

If you're interested and have an old big satellite dish around, I can tell you how to make a really rocking solar heater that will keep a pool warm in the winter as well.
 
The material kit for a 24x24 with 10' sidewalls, pole building, metal siding/roof runs about $8500 around here, including roll up door. (That is a standard 2 car garage.)

Concrete/labor are not included.

I would think labor should be under $10k for your 30x40 building, as 2 guys should be 2 weeks on the job, at most.
 
For water, install a frost proof hydrant that shuts off underground if you're not going to install a wc.
 
I'm building a 30x40 stick built right now. 90% done and only 50% to go.

What height are you planning? I went with 12' and already wish I went with 14'. Overhead doors are typically 2' less than wall height. Most car lifts are just over 12' for the posts. Scissor trusses can gain you interior height but cost more than higher walls and can't be insulated as well.

You need lots of insulation. R20 walls and R40 ceiling. Insulate the slab too. Under and at least 4-8' around it to stop the frost from getting under it. Mine isn't right now because I'm doing the electrical, air and water lines and at 10F 150k BTUs doesn't do a thing.

In-floor heating is great for a garage that is used all the time. If you let the floor freeze it can easily take over a month of running to warm the garage up. Even if you have it at 40F any thermostat change is going to take days. Only solution would be adding a forced air heater when you want to work in there. I'd put the piping in the floor for the future because you can't do it later. My plans are to insulate very well and use a 70k btu furnace. I have an interior wall giving me a 16x30 shop that will be kept heated and cooled year round.

Florescent lighting is still cheaper than LED. The energy savings of T8 vs T5 is very little. T5's are brighter and work good with high ceilings but can be too bright and give hot spots if mounted low.

Water is good to have. A laundry tub and 10 gallon heater is perfect. Heat tape on the pipes will keep it from freezing. I have floor drains and wish I didn't. The slopes in the floor just get annoying after a while.

Whatever price you get, add 50%. There's a lot of things you will want to add after you get started. I budgeted $35k and I'm sure it will be north of 50 when I'm done.
 
airdale said:
The choice of heat depends on how you expect to use the building. If you keep it continuously heated or you are willing to wait a couple of hours between when you turn on the heat and when you start using the building, then floor heat or wood heat will work well. If, OTOH, you want to flip the heat and start working fairly immediately, then you need something that will get the place warm fairly quickly. In my previous garage I had an oversized hanging gas furnace that would get the place warm in a hurry. In my current garage I have the overhead tube gas infrared type. It doesn't heat the air as fast, but the infrared makes me feel warm almost immediately. A quick search gave me this page: http://thermalinc.com/comfort/garageindex.htm which illustrates both types.

The other thing to remember is that if you're using the heat on only an occasional basis, efficiency isn't worth paying much for. Run the numbers of course but an expensive high efficiency furnace that will run only a hundred or two hours a year will probably never generate a payback.

Finally, run enough electricity. If you ever want to weld in there, a 40amp service will not be enough for any serious machine. Run 100amps; it will not cost much more than lighter service and it will not limit your capabilities.

Edit: I just noticed your comment about LED lighting. Same recommendation: Run the numbers but with occasional use you will probably never get a payback on LEDs.
Click to expand...

Yeah... that's the calculus. I have no doubts that the outdoor wood boiler would be the best system or that the gas heat would have the quickest warmup but OTH how many days am I gonna be out there when it's that cold? I'm a pretty cold tolerant mammal, I've got a gas furnace in my current garage and until it gets below about 45 I don't even bother turning it on.... I'm moving around enough that with a long sleeve shirt and jeans I enjoy the cool temps anyway.

You may also be right on the LEDs... I might settle for a single bulb socket by the entry door with a low power one and maybe a few outside lights meant to be on continually just so I can stumble out there in the dark and not trip over anything.
 
Couple other factors... I really have two possible building sites and I'm pretty set on one unless it's too problematic.

The one I want is within 50' of the house. Might have to do a little bit of work to clear a space, there's a mostly flat spot that's close to the right size but I might want to leave more room for a lean-to or just to maneuver trailers and things around. The house and this spot is basically on a hill... except there's more hill farther up so if I'm too big I might have to think about drainage or retaining walls... think it will be ok but that's why I need to get experts out there. Whole area is surrounded by trees... lots of shade and wind block.

Site option 2 is totally flat but it's right by the road and a significant walk up/down a steep hill from the house. I'd have to keep things locked up and I have no line of sight down there... not a high crime area but still it's a concern. Also I kinda want leave that area open if possible for bon fires and things like that. It is also in and surrounded by trees.

Probably not going to try to put a lift in. I know how handy they are but I'm pretty used to using jackstands for now and it seems like it would get in the way a lot.... aside from the difficulties and expense of putting it in. Also I just never liked working with them... always afraid the car is gonna fall off.
 
I would go by the house. If the hillside is forested, you shouldn't have a runoff issue, a 2 or 3 row cinder block wall at the up slope end would be adequate to berm up against if you want to be safe.
 
Henning said:
Radiant floor heating opens the possibility for passive solar heating, and there is nothing nicer working in the winter than a heated floor.:yes:

If you're interested and have an old big satellite dish around, I can tell you how to make a really rocking solar heater that will keep a pool warm in the winter as well.
Click to expand...

Solar is a WONDERFUL thing........

Henning.. You should see my 8' polished Stainless Steel dish....

In full sun, it melts aluminum beer cans at the focal point is 5 seconds.... Even you would be impressed....:yes::yes:
 
All of the above and plenty of simple electrical plugs on every wall.

It grinds your gears when you have to run an extension cord for everything.
 
txflyer said:
All of the above and plenty of simple electrical plugs on every wall.

It grinds your gears when you have to run an extension cord for everything.
Click to expand...

Another good reason to stick frame over steel building....

It is ALOT easier to wire, insulate and work with /alter, later in life...:yes:
 
N801BH said:
Another good reason to stick frame over steel building....

It is ALOT easier to wire, insulate and work with /alter, later in life...:yes:
Click to expand...

Not to mention build in the first place. Not much wiggle room working with steel. Pole barns are pretty easy.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Not to mention build in the first place. Not much wiggle room working with steel. Pole barns are pretty easy.
Click to expand...
That depends upon what the building codes are at the location. Here any building that is over 120 square feet must be an engineered building. The steel building comes with the engineering stamp.
 
N801BH said:
Another good reason to stick frame over steel building....

It is ALOT easier to wire, insulate and work with /alter, later in life...:yes:
Click to expand...

Not true, it's just a matter of what type of wiring system you use, steel arch building have no internal walls, all wiring is in rigid conduit, easy to put up, easy to take down.

What I'm putting up.
 

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Tom-D said:
That depends upon what the building codes are at the location. Here any building that is over 120 square feet must be an engineered building. The steel building comes with the engineering stamp.
Click to expand...

Morton, Conestoga, even pole barn kits from 84 lumber are engineered and have stamped plans if required.
 
Tom-D said:
Not true, it's just a matter of what type of wiring system you use, steel arch building have no internal walls, all wiring is in rigid conduit, easy to put up, easy to take down.

What I'm putting up.
Click to expand...

I can run wire and mount boxes ALOT faster then you can mount conduit, pull conductor and make connections.....


Surely you ain't gonna argue that...:dunno::nonod:
 
No need for LED's unless you really plan on having lights on constantly. It's a large outlay for not much savings in electricity over florescent lights when used relatively infrequently. I'd build it where you have the easiest access to it. It's so much easier to walk 20ft to the shop than if you stick it in the corner of the property when you only needed something small out of the shop.

Don't forget to think about a couple of small windows just for letting the breeze blow through in the summer. We have 3 1'x3' slider windows on the solid back wall that we open to let the air flow. Too small to break into the shop through, but enough for a bit of light and a small breeze.

We've toyed with the idea of a car lift, but it's one of those pieces of equipment that would likely be in the way more than it was in use. We maintain all of our own vehicles/equipment, but we rarely have a need to lift the car up off the ground any more than a pair of cheap ramps or the floor jacks/jack stands won't handle.
 
Jack stands were fine for me up to about 45. Once I hit 50, jack stands were no longer suitable, and the lift makes it so that so many more projects get finished right, rather than fast.
 
N801BH said:
I can run wire and mount boxes ALOT faster then you can mount conduit, pull conductor and make connections.....


Surely you ain't gonna argue that...:dunno::nonod:
Click to expand...

Weren't we talking about changing it later? chip was referring to altering later.

Very easy to install conduit in a steel arch.
 
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