Broken A/C - upgrades!

[weilke]

Did you consider ground sourced heat pumps? Lower operating cost, higher initial cost. Supposed to break even in 3-10 yrs, depending on electricity cost.

The man opted for 14SEER prehistoric technology, I don't think he was in the mood to start digging up his yard. A 5 ton ground source system requires either a mile of ditch or multiple bore holes.

I have two ground source units (3t and 5t), mostly because the guy who built the house 18 years ago was a geek. Compared with a high efficiency (18 or 20 SEER) air-air, the energy savings don't make up for the high up-front investment. Just had to replace one of the units, the cost for the box itself is eye-watering compared with a air-air split of identical capacity. Only few companies that make those units.

That being said, my next house will have ground source. But it'll be a 3 bdrm low energy ranch in the trees, overall just much less need for heating and cooling capacity.

 

[Ted]

So 2 Mitsubishis and neither of them a car...

I sold my 3000Gt VR-4 about 4 years ago.

I clearly read or interpreted one of your comments wrong. Around here, natural gas is cheap enough that the only people with heat pumps are the areas developed in the 80’s or 90’s when gas prices were high enough that builders saw no benefit to bringing gas to the new subdivisions.

For split units, Mitsubishi seems to be the clear top tier. In traditional units, there are apparently three brands that for much of the product line, if you take the case off, you can’t tell them apart from an identical spec Carrier. Bryant is one of those three, with a 10 year warranty, if you register the SN up front. On this one the fan is much quieter than the Rheem it replaces, to the point where really all I hear from 5 feet away is the Copeland scroll compressor. They have a quiet kit that is basically a foam cooler to strap around the compressor, but I don’t really see the point when I don’t hear it from inside the house, and the neighbors AC are all louder anyway.

I suspect, if Trane has owned American Standard long enough, it may well be a similar deal where many models are virtually identical across the brands.

We live in the boonies so we either use heat pump, electric resistive, or propane. We do have a propane tank but that’s a pain.

Mitsubishi does seem to be top of the line. I’m sure the cheaper stuff is fine but I’m happy getting something I can trust.

The guys said American Standard was the same components as Trane now, just with a better warranty.

Nor heavy excavation equipment.

I did consider a Mitsubishi bulldozer, but it was going to be significantly smaller than the D4 (like 3000 lbs or so). I’m glad I didn’t get it - the D4 is a bit marinal for what we’re doing as it is.

 

[SoonerAviator]

. . . The new system is SEER 20 and it has features I never knew existed. Replacing both attic and outdoor units cost me almost half what I expected, due to the modern stuff being more affordable than the old inefficient unit it replaced...

The only downside I’ve heard about on the higher SEER units is the electronics associated with multi-stage compressors and such being less durable which requires more service calls to repair.

 

[wsuffa]

The guys said American Standard was the same components as Trane now, just with a better warranty.

Yeah, it's pretty much only 2-3 manufacturers of the components of HVAC systems now, just a different name on the front. Sorta like cars.

 

[Ted]

The only downside I’ve heard about on the higher SEER units is the electronics associated with multi-stage compressors and such being less durable which requires more service calls to repair.

It seems that for the mini splits they’re just inherently more efficient. They go up to 40 seer now. When we’d gotten a quote a few years ago to replace our main unit the guy was pushing a variable speed high seer whatever unit and it was more than we’re paying for all three units now. I’m sure it would’ve been more mx intensive.

The man opted for 14SEER prehistoric technology, I don't think he was in the mood to start digging up his yard. A 5 ton ground source system requires either a mile of ditch or multiple bore holes.

Precisely. Dinosaur tech for a man who loves to burn dead dinosaurs.

 

[IK04]

Yeah, it's pretty much only 2-3 manufacturers of the components of HVAC systems now, just a different name on the front. Sorta like cars.

Yep. I thumbed through the catalog at the local HVAC supply house and found the exact controller board I needed and the cross reference was two pages long!
I could,'t buy it from them because I am not in the secret society of card carrying HVAC wizards, so I bought it online and save about $2500.

 

[Ghery]

What is this air conditioning thing you speak of? Not needed here in the Pacific Northwe(s)t. I see advertisements for it on TV, but in our poorly (if at all) insulated house we might miss it a maximum of 1 week out of the year.

 

[weilke]

The only downside I’ve heard about on the higher SEER units is the electronics associated with multi-stage compressors and such being less durable which requires more service calls to repair.

Yes. After I had a new Carrier system installed, I spent a few months in 'communicating thermostat hell' until every last board in the thing was replaced and it settled down.
There is a definite benefit to a two stage compressor, if there is a way to get the two stage Copeland with a conventional thermostat I would take it over a single stage or communicating system in a heartbeat.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

variable speed pumps allows for ultra efficient units.

 

[Ted]

variable speed pumps allows for ultra efficient units.

True, but they’re expensive.

Fortunately it’s stayed mid 80s and cloudy today. The single unit isn’t keeping up but it’s doing surprisingly well.

 

[weilke]

variable speed pumps allows for ultra efficient units.

Two uninvolved HVAC guys told me to stay away from those inverter based variable speed compressors. Anything wrong with them requires a factory tech to come out. The scroll compressors with two fixed speeds otoh are not any more trouble prone than the single speed versions.

 

[Ted]

Two uninvolved HVAC guys told me to stay away from those inverter based variable speed compressors. Anything wrong with them requires a factory tech to come out. The scroll compressors with two fixed speeds otoh are not any more trouble prone than the single speed versions.

I’d believe that. These guys definitely seemed to think I was better off with the standard setups. And having two smaller setups, one for upstairs and one for down, provides an efficiency benefit vs before where I was running the single bigger unit regardless of how many zones were demanding air.

 

[weilke]

I’d believe that. These guys definitely seemed to think I was better off with the standard setups. And having two smaller setups, one for upstairs and one for down, provides an efficiency benefit vs before where I was running the single bigger unit regardless of how many zones were demanding air.

I have owned three 3500-4500sf homes over the past 15 years and that is how all of them were set up. A smaller unit for the upstairs and a larger one for downstairs and basement. In the 'energy star home' craze of the early 2000s I ended up with a home with a woefully undersized upstairs unit. The thing was constantly running and just didn't move enough air to cover the volume of the rooms. Replacing it with a much larger two-stage unit made a major difference in my electrical bill. With the two-stage compressors and variable speed blowers there is much less of a penalty (if any) for going a size larger than the calculation calls for. It mostly ran on stage1 and would only kick into stage2 on 90+ degree days or if you had to cool the place after a couple of days of absence.

 

[Ted]

I have owned three 3500-4500sf homes over the past 15 years and that is how all of them were set up. A smaller unit for the upstairs and a larger one for downstairs and basement. In the 'energy star home' craze of the early 2000s I ended up with a home with a woefully undersized upstairs unit. The thing was constantly running and just didn't move enough air to cover the volume of the rooms. Replacing it with a much larger two-stage unit made a major difference in my electrical bill. With the two-stage compressors and variable speed blowers there is much less of a penalty (if any) for going a size larger than the calculation calls for. It mostly ran on stage1 and would only kick into stage2 on 90+ degree days or if you had to cool the place after a couple of days of absence.

My guess is that’s part of the problem this house has, which was built around 2005.

We’re going equal size on units, but our upstairs square footage of anything is more than downstairs because we have rooms above the garage. And of course he garage gets its own.

 

[Zeldman]

All this talk about air conditioning. I just might put in a window unit in the living room for next summer. I almost had to close the windows last night, but I just pulled up the blanket instead.

I'll probably have to replace the swamp cooler for next summer. It is getting rusty and it had a few leaky spots that I had to fill in with that rubber in a spray can. Cost me darn near 5 bucks to fix it....

 

[Ted]

All this talk about air conditioning. I just might put in a window unit in the living room for next summer. I almost had to close the windows last night, but I just pulled up the blanket instead.

I'll probably have to replace the swamp cooler for next summer. It is getting rusty and it had a few leaky spots that I had to fill in with that rubber in a spray can. Cost me darn near 5 bucks to fix it....

This morning when I woke up it was 94% humidity. As the day wore on I think it got down to a low of about 65% humidity.

Swamp cooler will not work here!

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

nope...not here either.

 

[Zeldman]

This morning when I woke up it was 94% humidity. As the day wore on I think it got down to a low of about 65% humidity.

Swamp cooler will not work here!

Today we are going to have a little monsoon weather with the humidity up around 50%, so yeah, it will be a little muggy in the house. That is why I am thinking of a window unit in the living room.

 

[Ted]

Today we are going to have a little monsoon weather with the humidity up around 50%, so yeah, it will be a little muggy in the house. That is why I am thinking of a window unit in the living room.

Our little 5000 btu window unit has been good for emergencies. Now that we’re going to part 25 level for catastrophic systems and will have three air conditioners we won’t need it at the house, so I figure we’ll take it to the hangar.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I've got a geothermal unit in my house. Bought the place last year, previous owner had just replaced the geo-unit about 8 months prior to selling. Thankfully the manufacture warranty transferred, as I had the compressor short to ground this winter. When it runs, its great, but when it wasn't running, heat strips are a great way to spin that electric meter.

 

[MIFlyer]

Well there you go, better prices than what I found.

I didn't mind spending the extra on the Mitsubishi in this case. There's nothing special about HVAC and it's not like it's a particularly hard thing to do. That said, Mitsubishi has been a good brand for a long time in this space and these guys said they've seen zero issues with the Mitsubishi units they've installed. So, works for me.

plus they throw free MU-2 parts in the box for you

Mitsubishi is the leader in the mini-split world

 

[Ted]

plus they throw free MU-2 parts in the box for you

Mitsubishi is the leader in the mini-split world

The second part was the real reason that I was happy paying extra for Mitsubishi.

I posted a photo of the boxes on Facebook with the caption "One stop shopping for all things air at your local Mitsubishi store: airplanes and air conditioners."

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

well...you paid for that name.

 

[Ted]

well...you paid for that name.

Sure, and the units you bought for half the cost may last just as long with no problems, or may last longer. Mine may quit the day after it's installed, no way of knowing for sure.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Sure, and the units you bought for half the cost may last just as long with no problems, or may last longer. Mine may quit the day after it's installed, no way of knowing for sure.

true....mine has a warranty....that's worth as far as you can throw them. I did all the install....and will fix as needed. So, it's worth what I paid. If they last a couple of years....I got my monies worth.

 

[wsuffa]

Was thinking about installing a precharged mini-split in the garage, but it would require full county permit and inspection (any HVAC or electrical work does). Not worth the hassle.

 

[Ted]

true....mine has a warranty....that's worth as far as you can throw them. I did all the install....and will fix as needed. So, it's worth what I paid. If they last a couple of years....I got my monies worth.

Right. Mine has a warranty as well, the shop did the install, so I think the warranty is worth something. And it's a Mitsubishi, so hopefully it'll last longer than a couple years.

Our hope is that with doing the units we're doing, we're done touching the AC until the kids are in college, which is another 14 years or so.

 

[Ted]

Was thinking about installing a precharged mini-split in the garage, but it would require full county permit and inspection (any HVAC or electrical work does). Not worth the hassle.

You need to move to the country, Bill.

If you pay someone to do it then they get to mess with that.

 

[Matthew]

Heat advisory today, I hope the new ACs get finished with the install and work OK. It doesn’t take long for our house to get uncomfortably hot, even with the windows open. Add in the humidity and it gets bad fast. We replaced our AC about 8 years ago. What I didn’t remember is that we paid extra for a 10 yr parts and labor warranty. We broke even on that a month ago when we needed the evaporator replaced.

 

[wsuffa]

You need to move to the country, Bill.

If you pay someone to do it then they get to mess with that.

Yeah, but....

Paying someone to do it more than doubles the price as the markup on the unit and permit process is nuts. It cost me $800 just to get a water heater repaired (8years old) and possibly more as one of the new parts needs to be replaced under warranty and contractor wants me to get labor cost back out of the manufacturer.

I own rural property. They require permits out there for all kinds of stuff - almost as bad as where I live.

 

[Ted]

Heat advisory today, I hope the new ACs get finished with the install and work OK. It doesn’t take long for our house to get uncomfortably hot, even with the windows open. Add in the humidity and it gets bad fast. We replaced our AC about 8 years ago. What I didn’t remember is that we paid extra for a 10 yr parts and labor warranty. We broke even on that a month ago when we needed the evaporator replaced.

This weekend it kept up way better than we expected it to, but it was cloudy and didn't get above around 87 or so outside. I'd been sitting at 75 and mid afternoon went up to 78 upstairs, then ran non-stop until evening when it got the temp back down.

And the guys are here and working, so hopefully they'll get unit #2 up and running and then the mini-split. They said they're going to focus on the #2 home unit first. I'd actually prefer them to do the mini split first, but I won't argue.

 

[Matthew]

Ours died 8yrs ago, but the guys were able to resuscitate it and keep it on life support long enough get it replaced when the wx wasn’t too bad. That unit was a low SEER unit and was undersized, original to the house. We replaced it with a much higher efficiency (not the “really “ HE) and larger tonnage. It doesn’t have to run so long now, but it does run long enough to remove humidity so it’s properly sized. Our house is 2-story so each heating and cooling season I have to play around for a few weeks to balance the ductwork to minimize the temp gradient.

 

[Ted]

I own rural property. They require permits out there for all kinds of stuff - almost as bad as where I live.

"What work? That was there when I bought it."

 

[wsuffa]

"What work? That was there when I bought it."

You don't know our inspectors....

They have gone after folks with old work and make to get redone, and one used to look at wiring in houses to see the manufacture date to try and go after someone that claimed "old work".

 

[Ted]

You don't know our inspectors....

They have gone after folks with old work and make to get redone, and one used to look at wiring in houses to see the manufacture date to try and go after someone that claimed "old work".

You live in the wrong state, Bill.

 

[Matthew]

I *think* a new central AC in our town requires a building permit and inspection. Our part of town had a real boom in house construction a while ago, so all those ACs (and furnaces) started wearing out about the same time. There were enough complaints about shoddy installs, gas line connections, and wiring problems (too many homeowners going with the lowest bidder) that inspections are required.

Our furnace was replaced a couple years ago and an inspector from the FD came out to check it out.

 

[CJones]

We bit the bullet and replaced our 20+ y/o HVAC system earlier this summer. We'd had at least one service call each of the past 4 years, it pretty much ran non-stop this time of year trying to keep up. I knew we were on borrowed time and didn't want to deal with begging to get someone out here when it would inevitably die on a week like this (90+ degrees / 105+ head index). ~2k sq ft two story house. Went with a single 3.5T 16 SEER Carrier unit with baffled dual zones split on upstairs/downstairs. I asked about the multi-stage compressors and the guy said "Unless you're having issues with high humidity inside the house, it's not really worth the investment". We ended up putting in a two-stage burner in the furnace b/c it does get dry as a bone inside the house in the winter. So far we're happy with it. I think the biggest winner for us was dual-zone. We'll see how this month's utility bill compares to last year to see if we really made any improvements.

 

[Ted]

We bit the bullet and replaced our 20+ y/o HVAC system earlier this summer. We'd had at least one service call each of the past 4 years, it pretty much ran non-stop this time of year trying to keep up. I knew we were on borrowed time and didn't want to deal with begging to get someone out here when it would inevitably die on a week like this (90+ degrees / 105+ head index). ~2k sq ft two story house. Went with a single 3.5T 16 SEER Carrier unit with baffled dual zones split on upstairs/downstairs. I asked about the multi-stage compressors and the guy said "Unless you're having issues with high humidity inside the house, it's not really worth the investment". We ended up putting in a two-stage burner in the furnace b/c it does get dry as a bone inside the house in the winter. So far we're happy with it. I think the biggest winner for us was dual-zone. We'll see how this month's utility bill compares to last year to see if we really made any improvements.

Yeah, at 6 tons of capacity I think we'll have more than we need. But we're also planning on some add-ons to the house later, and our house is red (absorbs more sun heat) with lots of 90+ degree days in our summers and no trees.

I'll be very curious to see the results in our electric bill.

 

[wsuffa]

You live in the wrong state, Bill.

Wrong county. It's worse in the neighboring states. I know of one city (elsewhere in another state) where you can't even pull a permit unless you're licensed for that trade. It reminds me of New York (or at least where I lived in NY) that required attorneys to be involved in any real estate transaction (state law at the time, don't know about now...) and it was against the law (at the time) to sign the documents with anything other than black ink.

 

[Ted]

Guys left a bit ago, having finished day 2 worth of work. Installing the second unit required some more work on the ducting so they didn't get that finished, but they got it blowing upstairs. Much, much better on this 92 degree day with not a cloud in the sky. They didn't get the mini-split done but I didn't expect that to get finished.

They'd said I might want to consider removing the zoning on the first floor, or at least disabling it for now. Having the two thermostats does cause a lot of extra cycling. Need to look at that some more and see.