British Terrorism Plot foiled (Airlines again)

RogerT said:
AOPA is clueless and powerless. Not sure why I keep sending them
my money.
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I keep asking myself that same question. They sure ain't doing anything that will help me get back in the air.
 
Stories like this will make my up-selling job that much easier..

"Honey, with an A36 you could sit in club-seat comfort, play cards with the kids, and door-to-door we'll beat the airlines anywhere east of the Mississippi. It's crazy NOT to buy one...."

Fat chance. Well, I'll try....
 
I made mention of it, not to AOPA bash but more in surprise that AOPA is silent on far reaching, breaking news that may impact GA. I guess, I expected too much too soon in the information cycle from AOPA. I will wait for the official word from the organization charged with looking out for GA.

John
 
Only took 5 minutes to reply, not bad, at least he is responsive.

The tactic you propose ... Ads at the checkpoints may not be feasible,
but the overall strategy is a direction we and NBAA have been taking
(even had discussion this morning thinking just like you).

Yet, we must be careful how many we drive from the airliens or we feed
the airline rhetoric that says GA should pay more - they are capturing
our best customers. I wouldn't want to be in a Congressional hearing
with the airlines pleading those lines and holding up ads, etc. It
would not help our cause to fight against user fees.

Also, to publicize our lack of security lines, etc. can come around to
bite us in the back.

No easy answer to the tactics, but in the end we are in total sync on
strategy.

--Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Condon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:55 AM
To: Boyer, Phil
Subject: Latest Airline Security issues and GA

Phil,

I see after the latest round of terrorism arrests, Alert levels are
through the roof and the TSA is overreacting as normal. Seems to me
that in the not so distant future carry on baggage will be something we
tell our grandkids about and they laugh. This is going to alienate the
business travelers that the airlines havent already pushed away. I
think our organization needs to take advantage of this, rather than
sitting by the sidelines and watching. My suggestion is large banner
ads hanging on the walls near security checkpoints lauding the virtues
(and time savings) of earning the private pilots license and traveling
with no security, on your own time. With TSA now recommending 2 hours
early arrival for airline flights, it will help our cause in 2 ways:

1) Travelers will have plenty of time to look at these ads and write
down websites or phone numbers to get info on how to become a pilot
2) Now even a 172 will often beat the airlines, thanks to long waits
and hub and spoke nonsense.

Seems to me this would help solve our problems of new pilot starts and
generally declining pilot numbers across the board. Maybe a couple more
airlines will fold and then not so many will be clamoring for users
fees.

Just one mans feelings, thanks for listening.

Feel free to stay in contact to discuss this issue. I check my email
frequently and will get back to you as soon as possible.


Tony Condon II
Cherokee II N373Y
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man, no carry on coffee? I'm gonna die. stupid terrorists.
 
1) Now is not the time for AOPA to place those adds it is one month when folks are really upset about lines. I ain't getting upset about standing in line when I hear its because of a plot just uncoverd 10 minutes ago!!

2) Who give a crap what you can or can't bring on board. Small sacrifices. Does anyone disagree that we are at war? Am I the only one that feels this way? I don't think so! In WWII our countrymen had to give up so much more, Rationing of Gasoline, Sugar, Silk etc. Don't talk to me about inconvieniece when we are at war.

The Bigger question is DOES EUROPE GET IT NOW? DOES ENGLAND, SPAIN, ETC?
 
Honestly though, what could AOPA do or say that would make anyone feel better? We are a small community as it is and they are by far the biggest voice out there for us with congress. Sure there are many times i wonder why they spend money on certain things that i feel the money could have been better spent but for the most part they do a pretty good job i think.
 
bbchien said:
....so when are the tanks rolling to Teheran? Sigh.
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Not too long after the routine air softening of its military targets.
 
Just like Elizabeth said earlier, just more incentive for me to finish up my PPL.

The only thing is that for most of the commercial flights I go on, it's far more inexpensive to travel via flying bus. With rental fees, gas, etc. it's just not financially possible for me to go GA, and I'm not able to purchase. Oh how I wish it were possible, though... Maybe in a few years.
 
AdamZ said:
2) Who give a crap what you can or can't bring on board. Small sacrifices. Does anyone disagree that we are at war? Am I the only one that feels this way? I don't think so! In WWII our countrymen had to give up so much more, Rationing of Gasoline, Sugar, Silk etc. Don't talk to me about inconvieniece when we are at war.
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I give a crap about POINTLESS sacrifices, which is what these are.

Look up what happened to all of the bacon grease the housewives carefully collected during WW II.

I don't need to suffer the PAIN of standing in line for 4 hours until I agree the guvmint is doing something.

If I was at the airport to catch a flight out this morning I guarantee you I would be nowhere near the airport or an airliner 2 hours later. If deal is I gotta play along with the smoke and mirrors show if I want to get on the jet, I would decide I don't want to get to on the jet.

I have to fly to a TECHNICAL confernence in California in September. How many TECHNICAL customers do you think are going to agree to go without taking or risking the loss of the very laptops on which they conduct the business they're going to conference for?

I will make a backup plan to fly myself until we hear what the jerking knees can come up with to stop me from doing that, in which case I will not go at all. I'll keep my dollars firmly in my pocket.
 
mikea said:
ILook up what happened to all of the bacon grease the housewives carefully collected during WW II.
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Now I'm curious...why were they told to save it and what happened to it?

Thanks,

Len
 
Len Lanetti said:
Now I'm curious...why were they told to save it and what happened to it?

Thanks,

Len
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I'm guessing it all got chucked.

my idea:

everyone on the plane gets locked down, just like on the big rollercoasters! big steel bars, over your shoulders. the flight attendants get a key and if you have to go to the bathroom you get an escort. camelpacks will be given to you before takeoff with a liquid protein drink in it.

look ma, no hands!
 
Len, i have found they were told to save it for recycling or as part of generally not wasting anything. not sure what happened after the war but suspect elizabeth is probably right.
 
Obviously the details of how they found out about this plot have not been made public. But i will go out on a limb and say this is a testament to show how much better our intelligence community is working together. Like i have said many many times before on this board and especially the red board, an outright war on a particular country or foreign army is not going to stop some small cell of AQ from attacking us. The only thing that will keep us safe now and in the many many many decades to come is GREAT Intel.

A tip of the hat to the agencies involved in saving a couple of thousand lives today and the fate of multiple airlines who would have surely been crushed by the loss of more planes and finances.
 
CNN is reporting that the "plot" was to add an exposive gel to a "British version of Gatorade" then explode it.

Where do they get the power to blow up their liquid bombs?

Read this... then consider, even if they take away our laptops, iPods and watches, they need to TURN OFF the power outlets in the armrests, or all this is for naught.

CNN.com said:
Whatever the case, experts predicted passengers may soon have to change their travel habits radically.

"Every businessman needs to have his laptop on a long-haul flight, and now you won't be able to. Even a battery-operated watch would provide enough power for a detonator. All you need is one shock," said Alan Hatcher, managing director of the International School for Security and Explosives Education in Salisbury, England.

Airlines have toyed with the idea of banning innocuous personal-care items from carry-on luggage following previous security scares, only to have the focus change because of the difficulty of enforcing tougher rules.

But Thursday's developments could dramatically increase the likelihood that security will come first no matter what the logistical hurdles.

The technology for the kind of liquid or crystallized explosives possibly involved in the thwarted terror plot is not new.

The threat first appeared in January 1995 in the Philippines, when police stumbled on a suspected al-Qaeda plot to target U.S.-bound planes with bombs based on nitroglycerine carried on board in containers for contact lens solution.

At that time, aviation authorities announced plans to ban aerosols, bottled gels and containers of liquids holding more than 30 milliliters, about an ounce, on U.S. airliners departing Manila, but the idea was never properly enforced.

Even then, baby formula was excluded from the ban -- even though, in powdered form, it can provide a good vehicle for masking crystallized explosives.

A decade later in Belfast, Northern Ireland, an Algerian man was convicted of possessing 25 computer disks detailing how to bring down an aircraft using, among other things, crystallized explosives hidden in a container of talcum powder.

During that trial, FBI explosives expert Donald Sachtleben testified he built and detonated three bombs based on the instructions found in the Algerian's home.

Despite this decade-old knowledge, airport security officials around the globe still permit passengers to carry a wide range of containers onto planes without any visual inspection.
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Darrell111 said:
Obviously the details of how they found out about this plot have not been made public. But i will go out on a limb and say this is a testament to show how much better our intelligence community is working together. Like i have said many many times before on this board and especially the red board, an outright war on a particular country or foreign army is not going to stop some small cell of AQ from attacking us. The only thing that will keep us safe now and in the many many many decades to come is GREAT Intel.

A tip of the hat to the agencies involved in saving a couple of thousand lives today and the fate of multiple airlines who would have surely been crushed by the loss of more planes and finances.
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Amen!! This really is good intel/detective work, as long as we don't later learn that someone got cold feet and came and ratted out the others.
 
If they're going to ban anything electronic from the flight for fear of a spark, then they need to disable all those headphone jacks that work with standard headphones too.

All I need to get a spark is to buy the $5.00 set of headphones, slip into the bathroom with them, use my teeth to break the insulation and split the wires, and then go back with a custom made spark generator.
 
Troy Whistman said:
Amen!! This really is good intel/detective work, as long as we don't later learn that someone got cold feet and came and ratted out the others.
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Then that would make the whole thing a bit scarier wouldn't it :(

I have a feeling they have been watching these guys for a while, gathering names of people involved, knew when they planned to do this, how they planned to carry this out and they prob know of other plots that were being planned by the same group.

I say to the Radical Muslims in the world ... BRING IT!

This should also say allot about how some think we should fight this war on terror. Many said Iraq was a threat before we invaded. It has been highly debated over and over and it really comes down to opinion, but just look at the recent events. The train bombings in Spain, the subway and bus bombings in the UK, more bus bombings in the UK and now this out of the UK. A lot of the people involved in these attacks are European citizens or of an allied country such as Saudi Arabia. They are in our back yard people and thats how they will get us. They are our neighbors who you would never expect to do such acts of evil.

More points to the Intel community.
 
Greebo said:
If they're going to ban anything electronic from the flight for fear of a spark, then they need to disable all those headphone jacks that work with standard headphones too.

All I need to get a spark is to buy the $5.00 set of headphones, slip into the bathroom with them, use my teeth to break the insulation and split the wires, and then go back with a custom made spark generator.
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Ummm... O noes!!! They could make a battery with lemon juice and a paper clip!

They gonna do a mouth check to check for a hidden packet of lemon juice or Oh! While they're there they could check the acidity of your saliva with litmus paper. No acidy folks will be allowed to board! They'll need empty stomachs, too, for reasons we won't discuss. All passengers are required to fast for 5 days before the flight. Not even water.
 
Say,

What happens when you drop mentos in a diet coke bottle and put the lid on really fast??? :D

If (see: Miami terrorist plan disrupted) this turns out to be real, I agree, it is highly commendable intel work to bring down the terrorists.

My concern is whether the current action is a massive and disruptive overreaction. Why, for gosh sakes, hadn't TSA considered this before and developed screening procedures in advance. It's not like the concept of using liquids was unheardof.....
 
wsuffa said:
Why, for gosh sakes, hadn't TSA considered this before and developed screening procedures in advance. It's not like the concept of using liquids was unheardof.....
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Because you can't think, plan, and scan for every possible thing that could be a threat. It's way too damn easy to sit here and say "Why didn't they think of that?" You have hundreds of thousands of people that want us dead. They hate our way of life. All they do is think about ways to kill us.

All we can do is try to stop them from executing their plan. We certainly cannot plan for and scan everything.
 
wsuffa said:
Say,

My concern is whether the current action is a massive and disruptive overreaction. Why, for gosh sakes, hadn't TSA considered this before and developed screening procedures in advance. It's not like the concept of using liquids was unheardof.....
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Exactly what i was thinking.

If they broke up the plan I would say as of now it is highly unlikely they would try to continue on with the plan with the heightened security and with key elements of the plot broken because of the arrest.
 
jangell said:
Because you can't think, plan, and scan for every possible thing that could be a threat. It's way too damn easy to sit here and say "Why didn't they think of that?" You have hundreds of thousands of people that want us dead. They hate our way of life. All they do is think about ways to kill us.

All we can do is try to stop them from executing their plan. We certainly cannot plan for and scan everything.
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You're right - you can't plan for everything.

But you'ld think they'd at least anticipate that they might try something again that they tried before...
In the mid-1990s, officials foiled a plan by terrorist mastermind Ramzi Youssef to blow up 12 Western jetliners simultaneously over the Pacific. The alleged plot involved improvised bombs using liquid hidden in contact lens solution containers.
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http://wbal.com/news/story.asp?articleid=47739

 
Greebo said:
If they're going to ban anything electronic from the flight for fear of a spark, then they need to disable all those headphone jacks that work with standard headphones too.

All I need to get a spark is to buy the $5.00 set of headphones, slip into the bathroom with them, use my teeth to break the insulation and split the wires, and then go back with a custom made spark generator.
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Shoot most seat have a 12vdc power outlet at them these days.

So it has been 5 years sonce 9/11 has anyone seen a mass deployment of explosive detectors where customers walk through yet?
 
I was up at 3am to 7am with my little 6mth old daughter trying to keep her asleep. I was watching this unfold on TV, well basically b/c it was the only thing on at that hour that wan't girls gone wild clips. Even though I am not an airline pilot, I do consider myself a some what professional pilot (I try real hard). All I kept thinking about is my fellow brothern pilots up there in the skies thinking, "Man, I wonder if they got them all or are we going to blow up in the next 30 seconds." I absolutely hate it when we have to travel on the airlines but think about those guys on the front end of the pencil with passengers in the back flying over a lot of ocean the next couple of days.

It will make me probably think more about it tomorrow afternoon on my next flight. Of course, it's only a comedian and his kids. My biggiest fear will be if they bring a Coca-Cola and Pop-Rocks.
 
Darrell111 said:
Then that would make the whole thing a bit scarier wouldn't it :(

I have a feeling they have been watching these guys for a while, gathering names of people involved, knew when they planned to do this, how they planned to carry this out and they prob know of other plots that were being planned by the same group.

More points to the Intel community.
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Or, maybe not. Could just be a lucky break:

Fox News said:
French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said the suspects in an alleged plot to "appear to be of Pakistani origin," and Pakistani intelligence officials say they assisted in the arrests.

The intelligence official said an Islamic militant arrested near the Afghan-Pakistan border several weeks ago provided a lead that played a role in "unearthing the plot," that helped authorities arrest suspects in Britain.
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smigaldi said:
Shoot most seat have a 12vdc power outlet at them these days.

So it has been 5 years sonce 9/11 has anyone seen a mass deployment of explosive detectors where customers walk through yet?
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Most of those seat power adapters don't work. If you can find 'em on anything but the int'l and transcon planes.

As for puff detectors, yep. I've seen 'em at Boston, DCA, and CVG. And BWI, IIRC. Others coming your way, soon.
 
wsuffa said:
Most of those seat power adapters don't work. If you can find 'em on anything but the int'l and transcon planes.

As for puff detectors, yep. I've seen 'em at Boston, DCA, and CVG. And BWI, IIRC. Others coming your way, soon.
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Yup. I spent 9 hellish hours between BLR and FRA without any power aboard our A-340, it was a bummer to say the least. However most transatlantic flights have had it recently.

I'm not looking forward to Dallas in a few weeks. Sigh.

I've been in the puffer at PIT so many times, I don't really care to think about it, however it is on the "alternative security" side of the shop, not in the mainline security near A/B/C/D.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
mikea said:
Ummm... O noes!!! They could make a battery with lemon juice and a paper clip!
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Added to the no fly list and wanted for questioning:
 

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wsuffa said:
Ah, more smelly passengers who can't shower (no soap or shampoo), put on makeup, or brush their teeth (no toothpaste).
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YEE HA!
Can you just imagine the screener :blowingkisses:, at Newark Airport:

"Arigh erybuddie, dere's no 'Soah', 'Makuh', or 'toupay' allow".
"Puts yer tings inna da can heer,
an blame idall on Al ......what's izname, oh yeah .....Kigh-der"

[ everyone with a hairpiece makes for the nearest exit, mumbling under their breath]

Skyraider
 
Chache said:
YEE HA!
Can you just imagine the screener :blowingkisses:, at Newark Airport:

"Arigh erybuddie, dere's no 'Soah', 'Makuh', or 'toupay' allow".
"Puts yer tings inna da can heer,
an blame idall on Al ......what's izname, oh yeah .....Kigh-der"

[ everyone with a hairpiece makes for the nearest exit, mumbling under their breath]

Skyraider
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They are going to have to wheel in full size dumpsters and place them next to the xray machines!! :eek: Just think of the smell :vomit:
 
Darrell111 said:
They are going to have to wheel in full size dumpsters and place them next to the xray machines!! :eek: Just think of the smell :vomit:
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Oh? Did you think that was a joke?
 
wsuffa said:
As for puff detectors, yep. I've seen 'em at Boston, DCA, and CVG. And BWI, IIRC. Others coming your way, soon.
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I reload for my pistols. I guess I should really shower well before the next airline trip. Honestly, I havent thought about it before but I bet it would set the puffer off.
 
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