Bought my wife a Caterpillar D4

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted DuPuis, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    The bigger problem (if you want to call it that) is that the kids want to stay outside and play longer. This is a good thing, but then it makes it harder to get them inside for dinner, bathtime, pajamas, stories, and asleep by their required bedtime to get enough sleep to wake up in the morning and do it all again.

    It's supposed to be raining all afternoon and evening today, though, so I won't be doing much outside.
     
  2. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Life is good.
     
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  3. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    mine is running great....but doesn't want to move. Seems I have an electrical issue not allowing the computer to control the solenoids. :confused:

    It's always some'tin.
     

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  4. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Cleared for Takeoff

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    I found your problem. They misspelled Caterpillar.
     
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  5. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    The real thing that I'm wondering about is getting the pony motor started, and then also hoping that everything internal to the pony motor and the pony motor to main motor attachment (the clutch and pinion) all work. If they don't, then all of this will have been for naught. I suppose I could engage those and get a cursory understanding of whether or not they seem to actually seem to work, might be a good idea.

    I'm thinking about a way to start the pony motor more easily. When I bought the thing it had a pulley on a 5/8" shaft driven by a 1/2 HP electric motor (which is seized up completely). What I'm thinking I might do is cut off that shaft, then put it in a "sacrificial socket" and weld them together. Then I could use any drill/impact gun/whatever to spin. That would probably help at least with initially getting things going, or initial diagnostics once I have fuel going to the thing. I'm really not expecting the thing to actually start once I add fuel, but if some starting fluid seems to make it try then at least I'll have an idea that it can run.
     
  6. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    With my wife gone for the week, I was hoping I could have at least one of her toys running by the time she got home. I'm not convinced I'll be successful of that, but I did make some progress on the pony motor diagnostics. After getting the fuel tank hooked up (although the new fuel bowl I bought is seeping... grr...) I tried pull starting it and nothing. Not even trying. I could hear both cylinders pumping, but no firing. So, looked into more. I pulled the spark plugs and they looked good, but using the multimeter the one plug was 50kohm resistance, and the other was something higher. So, I need new plugs. I was able to confirm the magneto seems to be functioning correctly, which is a good thing. New plugs today, and hopefully I can get it to at least burble and sound like it wants to run. I'm not too convinced on the carb actually working, but we'll see. If the carb is bad, then I'll have to pull it and rebuild.
     
  7. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Good deal...I found a used computer for mine....$900 plus shipping. :D

    happy times...now to see if there is a local airport to weave the two together.;)
     
  8. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    also....don't forget to touch up those points. They can pit and cause problems....
     
  9. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Getting the mag off the pony motor is a pain. Right now I want to try to get the thing to run. Once I can actually make the stupid thing run, then I'll look at various preventative maintenance items.

    Another thing the dozer needs is some new bolts for some of the treads. I need to talk to the CAT dealer (or maybe you or @NealRomeoGolf have some suggestions). I've got two treads that are really loose and obviously need to get rebolted. I also have some treads that are a little loose, but not significantly. I'm thinking I only need to do the ones that are really loose, but I'm not sure if any movement is too much.
     
  10. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    meh....I have a few cracked and broken treads. Those bolts are next to impossible to re-tighten without the large-large impact driver. Last time I had work done they cut the bolts with a blow torch and just replaced the ones needing attention.

    But....as little action as yours will see I probably wouldn't worry with the loose treads.
     
  11. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    fyi....I highly recommend finding a void or dead spot to load with varmint poison. Mice and rats can chew/tear your wiring and or computer. Mine was hit twice....now I'm loading it with mouse and rat poison in the heater duct. The heater core is disconnected so that area is not being used.....and is a great hopper for poison.
     
  12. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I'm not too worried about that seeing as the D4 has 0 wires on it. ;)

    That said, I do need to get the power washer out. There are some areas where there's dirt. Literally, dirt, just sitting in pooled up areas. When I bought it there were clovers growing in certain areas.
     
  13. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    well....that's great!
     
  14. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I should actually correct my statement. It has 3 wires: two spark plug wires plus the magneto grounding wire. Those are all for the pony motor.

    Otherwise, this baby's 100% mechanical - it doesn't even have an alternator, battery, or headlights.
     
  15. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    you suck....Ted. :D

    here is the wireup for the ignition switch....and hst computer.
     

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  16. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Cleared for Takeoff

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    Did you ever find your serial number?
     
  17. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I am a fan of computer controls on newer vehicles that you use regularly. However that level of complexity has negatives associated with it, especially on an implement that sits for extended periods of time. Start to get some wires chewed up and now you're really miserable. It's part of why I like my 50+ year old tractors, but my new truck.

    You would go and ask a reasonable, logical question like that... :)

    It's on there, I'll see if I can remember to write it down tonight.
     
  18. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    https://www.dreamingearth.com/catalog/pc/Natural-Pest-Control-c23.htm

    I use the mouse concentrate. It is a mix of peppermint oil and spearmint oil. Rodents can't stand the smell and leave. My house, garage, barn and storage shed are rodent free. I put this stuff in my moms house and no more mice. No little mouse pills laying around anywhere. The mice are just gone. And it won't kill the pets. Or the kids.

    Once a month I put several drops on strategically located cotton balls and never worry about rats or mice. I put this in the hangar once and the mice were gone. I put it in engine area of my vehicles and no more getting any wiring chewed up.

    This stuff just drives rodents away. And there are never any little rodent bodies to dispose of. I have to feed the outside cats so they won't starve.

    https://www.dreamingearth.com/catalog/pc/Mouse-Away-Concentrate-23p356.htm
     
  19. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    The other night I did put the new spark plugs in, and then I tried cranking the thing over. First off, old spark plugs had a resistance of 50kohm, new ones have a resistance of 5 ohms. That's not a typo. Ok, I found ONE problem.

    I tried pulling the thing over and I couldn't get it to even burble, even with starting fluid. Well maybe I put in too much starting fluid and flooded it, I don't know. So then that night I tried to go out to the tractor and see if I could visually observe a spark going between the spark plug wire in and the plug. I saw nothing, but given the fact that I'm trying to hold the spark plug wire in a fairly precise location and can only pull the thing a few revolutions at a time by hand with the other arm, that's not a very good setup. So I would say it doesn't confirm or deny anything.

    At this point I've pretty much figured out that I need to get some kind of motorized thingamagig to spin over the pony motor while I'm diagnosing and trying to get it started. It could be that the spark is fine but the mixture is just wrong, and after sitting for 15+ years not running even though it has compression I expect it'll be a bit harder to start at least that first time. Plus I don't know what choke/throttle positions the thing is going to want to start, so it could just be that.

    I'm debating how I want to try to make this work. The nut on the pulley for the pony motor is over 2" in diameter, really big. One friend of mine suggested an oil filter wrench might be a good way to do it since it doesn't need much torque it more than anything just needs to grip. That might not be a bad idea to accomplish the goal, at least for the moment. A new electric motor that would do the job from Harbor Freight is $75, which I don't really want to spend at this point when it's likely just for diagnostic purposes. Plus that's not how I would like to ultimately start the engine, given that a permanent mount would have the motor living outside and thus likely also have it leading a short life, as I seriously doubt anything from Harbor Freight is rated for outdoors.

    I do have a starter motor pulled from a Ford 302 that has the power, but I'd have to figure out how to adapt the shaft.
     
  20. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    If the direction is correct (tightening rather than loosening) could you use a drill motor or impact wrench with a socket (or oil filter wrench) to turn it over? I've got a nice Bosch hammer drill that gears down to quite a bit of torque, for example. Not sure how much torque it takes to turn it over.
     
  21. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    That's exactly what I'm thinking. Yes. It's right hand rotation.
     
  22. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Well, if you don't already have a nice hammer drill (which, frankly, would surprise me given how many projects you do) this is a perfect excuse.
     
  23. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I have two. :)
     
  24. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    My faith is restored!
     
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  25. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Get a neighbors kid to hold the plug wire while you pull the engine through. My dad would have me hold the plug wire while he checked the lawn mower....after a couple years I finally figured out why he had me hold it.....
     
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  26. SoonerAviator

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    Might be able to find a cheap used electric motor on craigslist or similar. I'd imagine any old 1/3 HP would be plenty.
     
  27. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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  28. jsstevens

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  29. SoonerAviator

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  30. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    i'd try to get a cheap socket from HF or something for that bolt (you might want it anyway later) and hook it to an electric drill and see if you can get enough to get it going
     
  31. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Fun discovery of the night: my cordless drill makes for a great starter for the pony motor with an oil filter adapter attached!

    But it didn’t start. :(

    I tried a bit of testing. I couldn’t visibly get a spark from either wire to the spark plug, and it smells like fuel is coming out of the exhaust. Now that doesn’t mean it’s the right amount of fuel, but it seems like there’s an ignition issue. The thing has a magneto and I have the P-lead disconnected at the switch so the mag should be firing.

    When turning the engine over I did get resistance of 0 ohms at about the right spot indicating the points were closing, and if I spun it over there was some voltage. This makes me think one of a few potential items:

    - wires are old enough that even though they read 0 ohms, they just can’t carry the voltage/current anymore and it needs new wires (wires are very old)
    - maybe the condenser is out and it can’t produce enough voltage? I am no expert on the inner workings of magnetos but I imagine some folks on here know a thing or two
    - the P-lead is grounded somewhere else that I’m not seeing since I didn’t disconnect it at the mag
    - this mag for some reason requires that it be grounded in order to run unlike aircraft mags

    I feel like I’m close...
     
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  32. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    should be easy enough....there's no electrical system, so there can't be too many wires.:D


    FWIW.....I just replaced the HST computer and I still can't get it to move. Runs great...lifts great....no movie. I also discovered two relays and a bank of a dozen diodes that are "not" on the schematic or in the OEM shop manual wire diagrams....guess I need to trace those out next.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
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  33. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I did a bit of looking through the manuals that I have on the dozer (which are really very good and useful). A lot of simple adjustments to it that I'm sure I'll be wanting to mess around with once I get everything working.

    One thing I confirmed was that the magneto works like every other magneto in the sense that if the P-lead is grounded it won't work. I figured physics wouldn't work different on a dozer, but you never know what different engineers might come up with. There's still a possibility that it's just as simple as the P-lead being grounded somewhere other than the switch (it's disconnected at the switch), so I'll hope for that first.

    The manual also told me the spark plug wires do just pull out of the cap on the magneto, so I want to look into what it takes to make up some new ones as those could potentially be an issue. However due to the complete lack of spark, I'm thinking something else in the magneto. The condenser comes to mind as a possibility, but I'm not an expert on magneto operation. Maybe some of the A&Ps who are can enlighten me. I think condenser because when turning the thing over by hand I was getting a voltage observed on the voltmeter and when the points closed I saw resistance. Maybe it could also be coil windings not making enough voltage? I don't know. The manual does include a test for the condenser - put it in line with a light and if the light turns on, the condenser is bad. It also looks like this magneto should have brushes in it.
     
  34. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    the physics are the same....rotating magnet and a coil to amp the voltage.....points to discharge the field current....

    start with the plug leads...change those out....points.....and all other moving parts. How does the distributor gear look?
     
  35. -KLB-

    -KLB- Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Condensers can fail low resistance, or open. If everything else is generally checking out ok, and they aren’t unreasonable, changing the condenser makes sense.
     
  36. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I haven't pulled the mag yet, so I can't answer any questions about how the internal workings appear to be. That might be this weekend's project.
     
  37. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Saw these tractors today and thought they would look good as part of your collection.



    355BA2F5-3F4F-4C0E-B54C-B08BDC76921E.jpeg C73AF970-B87D-495F-BFFD-BC7F891A8E1C.jpeg E02602DC-BC51-474A-96DF-D268E4C93AA2.jpeg
     
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  38. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I managed to get the magneto off the pony motor this weekend. It's an Eisemann RC-2H magneto. That's what I was expecting, but the manuals did say that it could be a Bosch magneto as well.

    I took the magneto apart and started looking at things. The brushes don't look particularly worn and do seem to be making contact. The rotor does look to have some wear on it, but I don't think enough to produce the zero spark condition that it has.

    Not having a great idea what I'm looking at, I did a few general continuity checks. It looks like the P-lead is essentially constantly grounded which would create the no-spark condition. However I think that may be through the capacitor and I think the capacitor may have failed (short circuit). That assumes I'm also checking the proper connections on what I think is the condenser. There are two distinct wire attachment points on what I think are the condenser, about 1/2" apart (vertically). The points do open and close. When I check resistance through the condenser, it seems to be around 3 ohms, and the multimeter says 0uF. I haven't tried to pull the magneto apart and test components individually, though. The points appear to open and close properly and everything looks right there. I probably need to pull it apart more and test further. It does look like parts are available so I can get some, I just have to figure out what exactly to order. It would help if I could find someone who knows these things. I did find a place that offers rebuild services, so I may call them up and see about doing that just to theoretically be sure it actually is done right and everything works.

    IMG_3430.JPG IMG_3428.JPG IMG_3429.JPG
     
  39. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Ted, if you're getting 3Ω between the condenser's connection and ground, it is bad.
     
  40. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    put your tongue on the leads....turn the gear....and tell us what happens. :lol:


    seriously....I'd take some scotchbrite and clean up any brush contact areas...clean the points with some emery cloth. I bet it just needs some love....