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Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted DuPuis, Aug 19, 2018.
Appreciate that, Matt. I'll let you know if the Cat dealer isn't able to do it.
I checked with my production guy. He gave me a referral for a place that does custom work while you wait. And it's just a few block from where you work.
Our crimp tools might not fit what you need, but these guys should be able to do it. We use them whenever we have to, and have used them for years.
I'll pm the info.
Went by the Cat dealer and got what I somewhat expected: "Wow, never seen that before." Well, one guy (ironically the younger one) had seen stuff like that, 6 years ago. See below for pics.
Appears to be #10 (5/8") hydraulic hose. The outer halves unbolt, and then you somehow have to get the inner part out. After however many years, that probably won't be easy, and I'm sure they could've done it, more that they didn't want to. I can get a grinder or whatnot and cut the hoses off. They said at that point they could put new hose on.
That's a bit disappointing on their part (cc: @NealRomeoGolf ) but I see where they're coming from.
If I could figure out where to order new fittings I could also have new hoses just made up easily as well.
Any part number on the coupling or hoses?
You might just have to cut the hose off the inner piece if it can't be twisted off.
I see now why you've had problems finding parts. No crimping involved because the outer halves are clamped together.
I'll show these to my hydraulic guy, maybe it will ring a bell in his head.
Any idea of PSI these things will see?
I think I recall ... MANY moons ago ... doing field repair on hoses like that. Usually said repair was preceeded by the hose failing such that the operator was doused in hot hydraulic oil.
Nothing I've been able to find at this point.
Cutting the hose off the inner piece and trying to twist it off is my plan at this point.
PSI, they said 2200 or so is all these old systems ran. Much lower than the modern stuff.
Hence part of why I've thought about trying to just fine new flanges that will adapt to standard modern setups.
Something like this would work, other than the fact that I'd need it 2 bolt.
Or would I? Hmm... need to look at my tractor and think about it more.
Edit: Link would help
They do look a bit tired, I mean experienced.
If new hoses prove difficult, is it possible to change the fittings on the dozer to modern fittings? I assume they're threaded into something...
You and I were typing at the same time...
Way ahead of me I see...
Can you PM me your machine serial number?
I think we opened the half shells and slit the hose longitudinally to peel it off the inner piece. Then heated the new hose up (boiling water?) to get it slid back on the inner piece.
His reaction, "Oh, my gawd! Might oughta just salvage those parts, clamp in a new hose, and call it good."
I figure the hoses are at least as old as I am, and realistically probably a couple decades beyond. Impressively, they're still holding pressure and aren't leaking. But as @gkainz alluded, they'd probably also just burst off and shower me in the face with hydraulic fluid.
The flanges bolt to a housing, similar to what I posted. Difference is that it's not something you can thread a hose onto.
I will once I get home and can read it off the machine. Hopefully tonight, although I'm single dad for the next few days so evenings are... busy.
That sounds right.
So is he interested in that job?
It actually looks pretty simple, just dirty. Too bad he'll be out for the next 3-4 weeks with hernia surgery starting tomorrow.
@gkainz pretty much summed up what we think it would take. Modern hoses might be a little stiffer than the older ones though, so slipping the new hose over that inner sleeve might take a little more effort than it did back in the day. But just think - once it's done, it will probably outlive you.
I just looked a couple of our hoses - they are rated anywhere between 4k PSI and 6k PSI.
when the hoses failed, we were usually 50 miles from the nearest town ... and said "town" was usually 2000 people or less. The saving grace was the same town usually had a decent farm implement dealer, repair shop and parts department.
I know the feeling. I am too. In a foreign country. Good times.
With how old your machine is, the serial number is my best bet in getting any info out of my system. The company that made the couplings back then is still a part of the Caterpillar family if you want to look at their website for ideas. Anchor Coupling is their name. I am not an engineer so I am not good at looking at their site and saying....hey, that one will work. But a serial number gets me a BOM, which gets me part numbers, which gets me engineering drawings, if you catch my drift.
we have Colliflower for that.....here.
And I think you've nailed exactly why Caterpillar designed this tractor the way they did.
No electric nothin'. Pull start the pony motor. Use the pony to start the main engine. Hydraulics that you can assemble in the field.
So, the pony motor has a clutch to spin the main engine, or....
Just wondering how it works.
Yes. There's a pinion and a clutch that you have to engage to connect the pony motor to the main engine. Once the main engine is running on its own and accelerates, it automatically disconnects from the pony motor (at least it should).
I like it, fun toy. Kinda like having a APU to spin up the engines...
PS- I need to fly out to Ted's Toy Land sometime and play with all this stuff...
Come on out! Although right now the pony motor doesn't work so I have to pull start the tractor (with my truck) and you probably want to wait for me to get these hoses figured out.
That's what I was thinking. *IF* you can get the clam shell apart, you may end up with either a side grinder with a cutoff wheel, hacksaw and/or cold chisel to get the hose split down off the male end of the adapter. Take a wire brush to the male end of the adapter to get it cleaned up good and lube the heck out of it when trying to put the new hose on.
BFH and strong vise will be your friend. Oh... And kids will need "Dirty word ear muffs" for this work.
Heh, no vehicle repair is complete until blood is spilt and curse words uttered!
Wow. Does that bring back memories.
I've had a few other things going on so I haven't had a chance to work on the D4 much. Thanks to the classic Caterpillar group I was able to get a recommendation on hose to buy.
Originally I was going to start putting the hoses together myself. I got one together successfully using a dead blow hammer and my vice, but it wasn't as pretty as I would like. I decided to just go to the Cat dealer and pay them to assemble the hoses (specifically put the barbed ends in the hoses, I'll bolt the outer parts on once it's on the tractor). Have to give them props - they pushed the ends on for me, cleaned the hoses out, and when I asked what they owed me they said "Don't worry about it." That was a pleasant surprise, definite props to them.
Over the weekend I put the new exhaust on which consisted of a much taller muffler than previous plus an exhaust stack. I haven't started the dozer yet but it should make things a good bit quieter than what it was.
I need to get the hoses on the dozer with the ends attached and then also check the coolant to make sure that's at the right level.
While putting the exhaust on, I noticed that a few of the pads (probably 3 or 4) on the D4 are loose. One is very loose, and another 2 or 3 are just a bit loose. The antique Cat guys said to find out the bolt part numbers and order them from the Cat dealer as they're special. I'll look them up and see if I can't get those here in time for my bulldozer party in a few weeks. Even if I don't, they'll probably last fine for that work.
Forgot to also put in that I ordered and received POR 15 to use on the pony motor fuel tank. Need to pull that off and do some work on it, then see if I can get the pony motor working. I will probably also rig up something to try to use the electric start for the pony motor, but I imagine that'll take a while longer.
I kind of suspect that you MIGHT get lucky if you PB blaster those nuts, hold the bolt with a well made, 5 sided wrench while you hold the piece in a vice, and hit the nut with a small impact wrench with a tight socket. they look pretty oily, so they may not really have much corrosion in there if they've been soaked for 50 years.
Did you ever find the serial number on your dozer?
Those nuts all came off very easily. No issues there. Should all be reusable.
No, but there's that whole "Seek and ye shall find" thing. Guess which step in the process I haven't done yet.
OK, then I think you're trying to get the hose out of the inside of the clamp. that's new stuff for me
And it's also already completed.
I should've mentioned how I did that. Ended up taking the Dremel with a mini cutting wheel on it and just go through the metal braiding. Once I did that it came apart easily.
I see you got the hydraulic hoses sorted, maybe next time ...
AFO-UK2 UNIFIED CODE U61 2-bolt flange adapters have bolt patterns that will mount on either of the two diagonal tapped holes on SAE Code 61 flange ports.
This adapter will mate with either of the two diagonal tapped mounting holes of the same nominal size CODE 61 4-BOLT flange port.
I'd considered that. In the end I'll have these 4 hoses rebuild for about $60, which is much cheaper than those.
Of course, we'll see if this actually works.
I haven't done an update on this in quite a while.
I got the new hoses made last year and installed on the dozer. Of course, I haven't started the dozer since then, so I have no idea if I actually did them right. Last weekend we tried pull starting the dozer with one of the tractors - actually the biggest, heaviest one. It's a 65 HP tractor. We'd get the tractor going and then have my wife dump the clutch to try to get the engine going. We got some puffs of smoke out of the exhaust, but it never caught. It was about 50F, so might've been a bit cold to do that easy. Part of the issue was that I wasn't able to keep pulling the tractor more than a couple of strokes due to a lack of traction/horsepower from my Allis Chalmers. I might actually do better with the Massey Ferguson that has the locking differential.
What I'm trying to work on (which will resolve the issue) is getting the pony motor running. It has compression on both cylinders (V-twin), but the pony motor hasn't run in 10 years. When I got it, the fuel bowl had rusted off of the fuel tank for the pony motor, and the tank was full of rust. So I took it off, washed it out, put POR 15 in the tank to seal it, and painted it. Now it's the nicest looking part of the dozer.
I need to get some more copper pipe (1/4" OD) because it ended up being just too short with the new fuel bowl and then I'll have the fuel system delivering fuel to the carb. Given how long it sat, I'll be shocked if the carb delivers fuel without rebuilding the thing.
I did try pull starting the thing to see if I could get any indication of the magneto firing the spark plugs. I wasn't able to get any indication, but that doesn't mean much as I wasn't able to get a very good cranking speed like that. So first I'll get the fuel tank hooked up properly, and then I'll see if I can get the pony motor to act like it wants to fire, either with the normal carb or with some starter fluid. I'm hoping the magneto isn't bad as that might be very difficult to find parts for.
Daylight Saving Time is making you work too hard.