Boeing is such an embarrassment to our country

[Bell206]

And, the reason I think Boeing bears a large part of the blame here is that I have never heard of any airline having had, prior to these crashes, sufficient information to do better

Except by all accounts, it was the airlines who pressured Boeing to keep the MAX as a variant which capped designs changes and the type/level of training needed. But more importantly, the FAA allowed that customer pressure to influence the decision and failed in their regulatory role. That was the systemic failure side of the equation.

On the pilot side, there have been several in depth reports on the actions of all the pilot’s involved with both accidents to include the Lion jump seat pilot mentioned above. Nowhere is luck mentioned. And when those pilot actions were reviewed to mitigate the negative results, they were able determine the airline was at the root of a number of those negative results.

In the end, the airlines pushed for the variant classification which limited the available knowledge to the pilots which in turn reduced the training requirements and the FAA permitted it. So while Boeing got stuck in the middle and made a very poor decision, the ultimate blame is on the airline, with the FAA a close 2nd.

 

[Piperonca]

Except by all accounts, it was the airlines who pressured Boeing to keep the MAX as a variant which limited designs changes and the type and level of training needed. But more importantly, the FAA allowed that customer pressure to influence the decision and failed in their regulatory role. That was the systemic failure side of the equation.

On the pilot side, there have been several in depth reports on the actions of all the pilot’s involved with both accidents to include the Lion jump seat pilot mentioned above. Nowhere is luck mentioned. And when those pilot actions were reviewed to mitigate the negative results, they were able determine the airline was at the root of a number of those negative results.

In the end, the airlines pushed for the variant classification which limited the available knowledge to the pilots which in turn reduced the training requirements and the FAA permitted it. So while Boeing got stuck in the middle and made a very poor decision, the ultimate blame is on the airline, with the FAA a close 2nd.

Boeing's MCAS algorithm should never have passed the most primitive logic check, let alone user eval. Running neck and neck with airline and FAA in the accountability department.

 

[Bell206]

Boeing's MCAS algorithm should never have passed the most primitive logic check, let alone user eval. Running neck and neck with airline and FAA in the accountability department.

I can’t speak to the algorithm as I don’t recall it being mentioned, but I do recall that one of the main issues with the MCAS activation sequence was during flight tests they had to double the activation rate to meet the certification requirement.

I believe the initial activation rate was the same X degree per second as the stab trim system rate. After they doubled the MCAS rate it had a travel advantage over the manual trim switch rate which was evident in Lion event. I believe it was this rate change during test that also led them to go after test pilot Forkner for deceiving the regulator.

Regardless, the bottom line is if they couldn’t keep the MCAS as a “feature” of the stab trim system vs it was a standalone system that required its own procedures, the consensus was the MAX would have lost its variant classification when you add up all the changes for the MAX. I wonder how many MAX sales Boeing would have actually lost to Airbus if that did happen??

 

[Half Fast]

I wonder how many MAX sales Boeing would have actually lost to Airbus if that did happen??

I suspect they would have lost less money than the cost of two crashes and lots of dead bodies and a production halt and an investigation and loss of reputation.

 

[Albany Tom]

I wonder if there is a single root cause (the management?) of their incompetence over the last few years?

Root causes?

Because we let all the airplane companies consolidate. Because someone thought that would be more efficient. Because someone didn't understand that the only thing less efficient than government is a monopoly.

Because most US companies are now run by people looking to maximize numbers for x months, rather than run by single individuals like Carnegie, Ford, Getty, etc., who wanted to build empires and legacies and play the long game. Maybe evil, but they got stuff done, and overall probably with less overall evil.

Because, related to the above, engineers and tech people take second to finance and marketing. Sell the sizzle not the steak for a while and you're selling glued together mystery meat with an audio track playing, like a chain steakhouse.

Because we let corporations own and profit from decades old intellectual property, rather than rise above competition based on innovation and production efficiencies.

Because we make it much easier to adjust old designs and pretend they're new rather than actually design something new.

Because defense procurement is protective of the US defense industry, while the US defense industry is generally non-competitive and not protective of US interests.

Because we have a concept of "too big to fail" when a corporation becomes too large, rather than splitting it up like we did AT&T, which not only protected the industry, but directly helped to launch one of the biggest booms in telecommunications and technology, ever.

Or in other words, they became what they are because we let them, even encouraged them.