Bluetooth vs WiFi portables

Ed Haywood

Ed Haywood

Final Approach
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Jul 12, 2020
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Tampa FL
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Ed
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FD77
I have been hatching a scheme to waste more money on my Decathlon panel. Initial wants are a second AV-30 and an Aera 760.

I dig the Aera 760 because I can hard wire it to my radio, engine monitor, and both AV-30's. It will push freqs to the radio, flight time to the engine monitor for fuel required, and nav data to the AV-30 DG to enable HSI mode. That's a lot of workload support.

Here's the catch. From what I can tell in the pilot guide, the Aera 760 can only receive traffic and weather via bluetooth or hard wire from Garmin ADS-B devices. As best I can tell, there is no way for an Aera, or an android mobile device running Pilot for that matter, to get TIS/FIS from a WiFi ADS-B portable. If I want traffic and weather on the Aera, I have to buy a Garmin portable ADS-B.

The AV-30 has an adapter to display traffic on the DG. But it requires WiFi traffic. Garmin portable ADS-B's do not output on WiFi.

So, unless I buy a Garmin ADS-B receiver AND a non-Garmin ADS-B receiver, I cannot have traffic on both the Aera and the AV-30.

The Aera has WiFi. It will connect for internet weather on the ground. It will connect to mobile devices running Pilot to receive flight plans. But it will NOT connect to anyone else's ADS-B.

Garmin makes some amazing stuff. But I hate them. This is why.

Happy to be corrected if I am missing something.
 
IMG_8894.pngIMG_8893.jpeg

I wish I had the answer but the question is what data does the RS232 port transmit. I am guessing you could work with a Garmin portable adsb and also have that hard wired for power and to your avionics. It is a bit annoying that Garmin basically requires you to use all Garmin but their stuff when used all Garmin does work together nicely. Also, you could sell your WiFi adsb and buy the Garmin adsb. They both hold their value pretty well.

I’d recommend to contact the guys who did my avionics work in Indy if you are near Indy.
 
I have a Stinson 108-1 with 2 AV-30s and an Area 660 and a Stratus 3i (ADS-B in - wireless). I bought a used GDL-39 for traffic on the 660. Having said that, it is WAAAYYY overkill. I will never fly IFR and I don't really need a GPS in this plane as I just look out the windows to navigate. But, it's fun.

For the 660 vs 760 decision I virtually "flipped a coin". From what I remember the 760 is a bit bigger and has approach plates. I read some discussion about the 660 having better battery life, but mine is hardwired to ships power, the AV-30 and the FS-450 fuel flow. The Area GPSes will also wire in to an SL-30 and some other radios to provide twr/gnd frequencies to the radio. Unnecessary for me, but cool. I've got an SL-30 on the shelf. I plan on replacing the Narco with the SL-30.

For the AV-30s I connected the AV-MAG (1 mag feeds both AV-30s). AV-LINK (1 each AV-30) which allows wifi updates to the AV-30s and provides traffic from the Stratus to the "DG" AV-30. I also added a compatible OAT probe dedicated to the "AI" AV-30 (One OAT per AV-30 required) no sharing the OAT.

NOTE: The picture is before the AV-MAG was installed.
 

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szwinger said:
I have a Stinson 108-1 with 2 AV-30s and an Area 660 and a Stratus 3i (ADS-B in - wireless). I bought a used GDL-39 for traffic on the 660. Having said that, it is WAAAYYY overkill. I will never fly IFR and I don't really need a GPS in this plane as I just look out the windows to navigate. But, it's fun.

For the 660 vs 760 decision I virtually "flipped a coin". From what I remember the 760 is a bit bigger and has approach plates. I read some discussion about the 660 having better battery life, but mine is hardwired to ships power, the AV-30 and the FS-450 fuel flow. The Area GPSes will also wire in to an SL-30 and some other radios to provide twr/gnd frequencies to the radio. Unnecessary for me, but cool. I've got an SL-30 on the shelf. I plan on replacing the Narco with the SL-30.

For the AV-30s I connected the AV-MAG (1 mag feeds both AV-30s). AV-LINK (1 each AV-30) which allows wifi updates to the AV-30s and provides traffic from the Stratus to the "DG" AV-30. I also added a compatible OAT probe dedicated to the "AI" AV-30 (One OAT per AV-30 required) no sharing the OAT.

NOTE: The picture is before the AV-MAG was installed.
Click to expand...

Your setup is exactly what I am going for. Thanks for sharing!

Aera 660 would fit my panel better, but I did like the idea of being able to load full approaches. OTOH the 760 has AHRS, which I have no use for.

I have a Stratux to push traffic to the AV-LINK. A used GDL-39 from fleaBay is a good cheap option for traffic and weather on the Aera 760. I was irritated at needing to have two separate ADS-B receivers, but I suppose redundancy is never bad.
 
My plane conveniently has tubes that I was able to use a ram bar/tube mount for the 660. I can try to get a pic, but it’s very stable, doesn’t take up any panel real estate and is convenient. I don’t recall the Super Decathalon (That’s what I got my TW sign off in), but if there’s a convenient tube I’d recommend that as a secure mounting location.
 
I had considered upgrading from a 660 to 760 to get the full approach capability without seeing one in person but when the 760 arrived it was too heavy and bulky. Instead I opted to get a GPS175 and use the 660's screen for a bigger map display with an RS232 feed from the 175. Unfortunately my ADSB in is not Garmin so I can't display traffic on the 660. However, it looks like a GDL50 would provide not only the ADSB in but an AHRS source for the 660 so it can function as an attitude indicator back up. That is a potential system upgrade (once I get my engine back)
 
farmrjohn said:
I had considered upgrading from a 660 to 760 to get the full approach capability without seeing one in person but when the 760 arrived it was too heavy and bulky. Instead I opted to get a GPS175 and use the 660's screen for a bigger map display with an RS232 feed from the 175. Unfortunately my ADSB in is not Garmin so I can't display traffic on the 660. However, it looks like a GDL50 would provide not only the ADSB in but an AHRS source for the 660 so it can function as an attitude indicator back up. That is a potential system upgrade (once I get my engine back)
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175, wow that's a big step up in capability. Do you run Garmin Pilot on a tablet or phone? If so, can the 175 and Pilot talk?
 
Ed Haywood said:
175, wow that's a big step up in capability. Do you run Garmin Pilot on a tablet or phone? If so, can the 175 and Pilot talk?
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No, I use FltPlan Go. I'm pretty sure the 175 and Garmin Pilot will talk if you pay to add in their flight stream capability. I had hoped the 660 would be able to send flight plans to the 175 via RS232 using Connext but the 660 can only receive and display the flight plan information from the 175. I do not know if the 760 has that limitation. I had hoped to build flight plans at home on the computer, transfer to the 660 then on to the 175. It is nice to have the flight plan displayed on a map page (660) and the flight plan on the 175 for editing or leg information. Both have the user configurable data blocs in the corners. On sale the 175 wasn't that much more (in aviation terms) than the 760 and didn't require a Garmin shop for the install.
 
Ed Haywood said:
175, wow that's a big step up in capability. Do you run Garmin Pilot on a tablet or phone? If so, can the 175 and Pilot talk?
Click to expand...
Yes. The “Connectivity” section in the Pilot Guide discusses what information they can share. Although it discusses Pilot, it also applies to ForeFlight and FltPlan Go!
 
Ed - the 175 also talks to ForeFlight just as easily as Pilot. I’ve tested both. Unlike Garmin hardwire limitations, Bluetooth is Bluetooth. The only limitation I have discovered is if you put a lat/long in your efb flight plan, Garmin will not pull that in. Only actual waypoints. Real world example - you want to route along a vfr flyway so you use a rubber band route with lat/long in ForeFlight/Pilot- that flight plan won’t translate when it imports.

Other than that - pretty easy and mostly reliable. I’ve had one issue recently where I needed to forget and re-pair, but that’s the world of Bluetooth.

Once I’m powered on - I don’t even have to tell ForeFlight to push the plan to the 175 or, if I enter the plan on the 175, I get a prompt on ForeFlight “update flight plan from panel?” Any changes in flight work the same way - if I make a change in FF, the 175 asks if I want to accept the changed plan. If I make the change in the 175, FF asks if I want to update the plan from the panel. It’s a step - but a helpful one to make sure you don’t make a change you didn’t intend.

Happy to chat live about my experience with the 175 if you’re interested. I have been flying with mine for about about a year and am pretty happy with it.

To address one item from your IFR thread - one thing you will miss out on training outside of actual are managing the systems in the bumps and dips of being inside the layer. Touch interfaces are wonderful- I fly all glass. But… something as simple as loading or activating approach gets interesting. Ever play the game operation as a kid? It’s like removing the funny bone when you are buzzing on sugar and caffeine.

Then again, you are in Fl, so doubt you’ll struggle to find turbulence on clear days.
 
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Yeah, that 175 is growing on me. So much that I am considering the Aera 660 instead of a 760 as a short term measure.

IMO Garmin was boneheaded not to increase the 760 resolution. Yeah the screen is bigger, but total pixels are the same.

Still stuck on Garmin's refusal to play well with WiFi ADS-B In. Grrrrr.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Yeah, that 175 is growing on me. So much that I am considering the Aera 660 instead of a 760 as a short term measure.

IMO Garmin was boneheaded not to increase the 760 resolution. Yeah the screen is bigger, but total pixels are the same.

Still stuck on Garmin's refusal to play well with WiFi ADS-B In. Grrrrr.
Click to expand...
Not just WiFi. When it comes to consuming data, Garmin largely only plays with Garmin. It will push data to my Dynon HDX all day long, but consume nothing (ADSB, flight plan changes). Agree it’s a miss, Maybe send them a case study on what happened to Apple when they started playing nicer.

That and their level of pride in their database updates are really my only gripes.
 
Learnin’ to fly… said:
Not just WiFi. When it comes to consuming data, Garmin largely only plays with Garmin. It will push data to my Dynon HDX all day long, but consume nothing (ADSB, flight plan changes). Agree it’s a miss, Maybe send them a case study on what happened to Apple when they started playing nicer.
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I’m surprised more people using non-Garmin panels - Dynon, Aspen - don’t opt for an Avidyne IFD. Those I know who went that direction are pretty happy.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I’m surprised more people using non-Garmin panels - Dynon, Aspen - don’t opt for an Avidyne IFD. Those I know who went that direction are pretty happy.
Click to expand...

That’s the way I’d do it if I was doing a panel today.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I’m surprised more people using non-Garmin panels - Dynon, Aspen - don’t opt for an Avidyne IFD. Those I know who went that direction are pretty happy.
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Economics. The IFD 440 is more than 2x the price of the 175. While certainly better, hard to cost justify it being 2x better. That savings funds over 270 hours of fuel for me.
 
Learnin’ to fly… said:
Economics. The IFD 440 is more than 2x the price of the 175. While certainly better, hard to cost justify it being 2x better. That savings funds over 270 hours of fuel for me.
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I wasn’t referring specifically to the GPS-only/no ground nav/no comm 175, but more generally to functional equivalents.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I wasn’t referring specifically to the GPS-only/no ground nav/no comm 175, but more generally to functional equivalents.
Click to expand...
Yeah, makes sense.

I think the other part of it, at least in the Dynon ecosystem, is that the HDX platform and its capabilities make is really hard to consider all the other functions of the avidyne. Aside from approaches, HDX puts everything you need right in front of you in a single interface. And the integrated comm is such a workload reducer. You can go from atis - clearance - ground - tower - departure without ever spinning a dial. Same for arrival.
 
My experience with various devices over the years has been that wifi has been less reliable than bluetooth for in-cockpit applications. I do not have a satisfying technical explanation for this.
 
Learnin’ to fly… said:
Yeah, makes sense.

I think the other part of it, at least in the Dynon ecosystem, is that the HDX platform and its capabilities make is really hard to consider all the other functions of the avidyne. Aside from approaches, HDX puts everything you need right in front of you in a single interface. And the integrated comm is such a workload reducer. You can go from atis - clearance - ground - tower - departure without ever spinning a dial. Same for arrival.
Click to expand...
Agree about the capabilities of the Dynon. The HDX makes for an incredible panel. And the price for the internal nav (not for IFR use), chart, and map updates can't be beat. Lot's of fuel money savings there too.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Agree about the capabilities of the Dynon. The HDX makes for an incredible panel. And the price for the internal nav (not for IFR use), chart, and map updates can't be beat. Lot's of fuel money savings there too.
Click to expand...

How does the internal nav work on the HDX? Does it have a magic remote GPS box, and the routes are input in the MFD?
 
szwinger said:
I have a Stinson 108-1 with 2 AV-30s and an Area 660 and a Stratus 3i (ADS-B in - wireless). I bought a used GDL-39 for traffic on the 660. Having said that, it is WAAAYYY overkill. I will never fly IFR and I don't really need a GPS in this plane as I just look out the windows to navigate. But, it's fun.

For the 660 vs 760 decision I virtually "flipped a coin". From what I remember the 760 is a bit bigger and has approach plates. I read some discussion about the 660 having better battery life, but mine is hardwired to ships power, the AV-30 and the FS-450 fuel flow. The Area GPSes will also wire in to an SL-30 and some other radios to provide twr/gnd frequencies to the radio. Unnecessary for me, but cool. I've got an SL-30 on the shelf. I plan on replacing the Narco with the SL-30.

For the AV-30s I connected the AV-MAG (1 mag feeds both AV-30s). AV-LINK (1 each AV-30) which allows wifi updates to the AV-30s and provides traffic from the Stratus to the "DG" AV-30. I also added a compatible OAT probe dedicated to the "AI" AV-30 (One OAT per AV-30 required) no sharing the OAT.

NOTE: The picture is before the AV-MAG was installed.
Click to expand...

Do you typically use the lower AV-30 in HSI or traffic mode?
 
Ed Haywood said:
How does the internal nav work on the HDX? Does it have a magic remote GPS box, and the routes are input in the MFD?
Click to expand...
HDX has its own GPS antenna. Since it is not waas, it can’t be used for approaches.

It’s really great capability and an awesome platform. Full engine monitor, Synthetic vision, flight directors, autopilot. The database updates are no charge (all the airport info and goodies you get in an efb) plus terrain, TFR’s, I’m sure I’m forgetting something. If you have ADSB in - map shows traffic and weather. If you do their full stack, the xponder and comm are remote mount, so you free some decent panel space. You can do a 3rd party subscription for $50 a year which includes VFR, IFR high/low, approach plates, and taxi diagrams - all geo-referenced. You either enter your routes in the flight planner - or, it supports a WiFi network to integrate with all the EFB’s. Also has a g meter for all the crazy stuff you do in the air and AOA if you use their pitot.

The 7 in might fit for you, or maybe bigger. Don’t know if they are available for your bird, but I love the platform.

They have pretty good content on Dynon University on YouTube that shows the capabilities.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Do you typically use the lower AV-30 in HSI or traffic mode?
Click to expand...
I just got the GDL39 so I used the bottom AV-30 in traffic mode as there wasn't any traffic available on the Area (Garmin won't connect to the Stratus. at least that I could figure). I haven't used the HSI display except on the ground to verify it works. I don't really navigate anywhere in the Stinson. I just stay hang around the Colorado River and Lake Mead.
 
Ed Haywood said:
How does the internal nav work on the HDX? Does it have a magic remote GPS box, and the routes are input in the MFD?
Click to expand...
@Learnin’ to fly… gave you a great answer. Since you mentioned the Aera 760 earlier, I’ll add…

The certified HDX is an offshoot of the experimental/light sport (non-certified) version I am more familiar with. In that one, If there is a separate GPS at all, it something like an Aera, which I found to be redundant. Basically, IMO, a dual screen HDX, with nothing more, rivals (and in some ways may exceed) a G1000 in VFR capability. The addition of an IFR approach certified GPS completes the picture.
 
Intriguing idea: I just found a setting in iFly to output NMEA via Bluetooth Serial. In theory, I could hardwire a Bluetooth adapter to my engine monitor and AV-30's to push Nav data. I don't think that would work for the radio, but can't have everything. That way I could skip the Aera and the second ADS-B receiver and just fly off my phone like I have been doing.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Intriguing idea: I just found a setting in iFly to output NMEA via Bluetooth Serial. In theory, I could hardwire a Bluetooth adapter to my engine monitor and AV-30's to push Nav data. I don't think that would work for the radio, but can't have everything. That way I could skip the Aera and the second ADS-B receiver and just fly off my phone like I have been doing.
Click to expand...

Would that void the AV-30 STC?
 
I thought I had already commented but don't see it (apologies if I expressed this elsewhere) -- I'm currently moving my traffic doodads back from wifi (stratux/stratus) to bluetooth (GDL50) to make room for Starlink on my assorted devices. I am finding inflight tactical web browsing (as well as very non-tactical web browsing when bored :) ) to be a real benefit. Sorting out "which airport should I stop at?" got a whole lot easier.
 
schmookeeg said:
I thought I had already commented but don't see it (apologies if I expressed this elsewhere) -- I'm currently moving my traffic doodads back from wifi (stratux/stratus) to bluetooth (GDL50) to make room for Starlink on my assorted devices. I am finding inflight tactical web browsing (as well as very non-tactical web browsing when bored :) ) to be a real benefit. Sorting out "which airport should I stop at?" got a whole lot easier.
Click to expand...
Zero chance of me ever installing starlink. It's crazy cool tech, but at my altitudes I usually just find a cell phone tower and circle it.
 
TCABM said:
Would that void the AV-30 STC?
Click to expand...
I don't think so. The installation instructions, which are part of the STC, allow the connection of an RS-232 TX line outputting NMEA data to the GPS pin on the AV-30. That's exactly what I am doing. I'll rig up a DB9 so the Bluetooth adapter is removable and Velcro it to the frame. No different than any other non-certified portable device.
 
I think I solved my issue!

30 bucks on Amazon netted me a Bluetooth-to-RS232 adapter and DB9 connector. I tested it last night. It pairs to Android and connects to iFly.

Next I will connect pin 2 on the DB9 to GPS input for the AV-30 and EDM 830, and pin 5 to ground. That should push Nav data in NMEA 183 format to both devices, resulting in my AV-30 displaying GPS HSI and my EDM 830 calculating fuel required to destination.

My buddy has an AV-LINK. Connecting that between the AV-30 and power/data harness should result in Stratux traffic displayed on the AV-30.

I can also push Nav data to my GTR 225 radio, which will enable identifier display and nearest freq lookup. But that may involve burrowing into the DB connectors on the Garmin backplate, so I'll probably skip that for now.

I will not be needing an Aera 660/760 or a GDL-39/50. No bucks to Garmin. I feel like Cassian Andor sticking it to the Empire.

My only complaint is running out of USB charging ports. Those damn things are expensive.

PXL_20250423_163943348.jpg
 
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Ok, now I have everything working. iFly on my Android phone pushing GPS nav via Bluetooth to the AV-30 and EDM 830. Stratux pushing traffic via WiFi to iFly and the AV-30.

One big negative. The views are not combined on the AV-30. You can switch between them with a 5 second hold press, but no way to see Nav and Traffic together. You can see the heading on the traffic view, but that is it. Not even a heading bug. That greatly limits the utility of the traffic view enroute.

Hopefully they will address that in a future update. Arc Nav view with traffic would rock.
markup_1000006278.jpgmarkup_1000006279.jpgmarkup_1000006274.jpg
 
PIREP after my first long XC with the new setup:

HSI mode is excellent. Only issue is Bluetooth stability. Device connection holds, but sometimes the EFB software drops it for no reason. Trip up was sketchy. Return trip held solid for 3 hours.

MFD traffic mode is also excellent. WiFi stability is good, though the Stratux sometimes does not boot up correctly. I might switch to a Stratus or Sentry.

In flight, I switched between all 3 modes. I think a better setup would be two AV-30's, with the top one locked in AHI mode and the bottom switching between HSI and MFD mode. When the EFB software warns of traffic nearby, a long press switches from HSI to MFD to monitor more closely.

AV-30 really, really needs to display heading bug in MFD mode. I think they think they are being clever and luring people into buying 3 units for a dedicated traffic mode. IMO using the added capability to sell 2 units makes more business sense.

Now I'm looking at the new iFly Aviation Tablet. It has hard wire serial out to send NMEA to the HSI and engine monitor without the instability of Bluetooth.
 
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