Bipolar plane owner

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4RNB

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4RNB
First off I’m really not bipolar. But learning to fly and owning an airplane has a whole bunch of ups and downs at least for me I had some scares early on with plain ownership that prompted me to get a new engine. Those scares might not have been a legitimate calls for concern, but I wanted to fly with my spouse and a new engine seemed to be the way to do this safely. I also upgraded electronics and I’m now at the tail end of a repainting the plane my flying has been interrupted with all of these upgrades. All of the maintenance has had hiccups all the maintenance takes longer than expected certainly based upon expectations that the different shops tell me . all of these upgrades started during Covid. Had to wait months to get an engine had to wait almost a year for Garmin products to come in. It was a hassle scheduling, check rides and training around planned upgrades. The install went pretty smooth the Garmin upgrade was a hassle taking, much longer amount of time than expected after needing to install a bush liner panel, and the paint has taken three months longer than expected at minimum due to needing some skins replaced, and a windshield arrived that had glazing on it. By the time the shop opened it up.

Please forgive the typos, as I’m dictating this on an old iPad that isn’t working that well

During a recent trip after the death of a family member, I wondered allowed with my spouse if flying, was really the right way to enjoy the world. I took a look at all of the expenses even posted about it here under a topic kinda like how does everybody afford to do this, on the other hand, I dream about living on a airport property or building an airport or buying an airport. Due to difficulty with maintenance and just a curiosity about things I’ve considered going to AMP school in my mid 50s.

I keep thinking that, after all of this maintenance that I will have a like new, airplane absent of headaches, have full confidence, and be able to have a smooth pathway of ownership

Last night after the test flight from my paint shop, I get a report of a voltage alarm concern for an alternator not charging. this is the same alternator that after the avionics were updated was exchanged. I think, under warranty less than a year less than 50 hours on it when the paint shop opened up the engine, they noticed that there was an unacceptable oil leak from either the oil, temp sensor, or the oil pressure sensor, so once again, I’m facing another delay when the plan had been to fly the plane home today . My guess is the paint process wrapping the engine with plastic a number of times something in advertently got fiddled with and it should be an easy fix with regards to the oil leak just taking time and money

So I’ve gone from a yesterday morning, feeling wildly excited to get to the skies again to be retired. Get to see the world with my spouse to this morning being away from home in a hotel and a plane that I can’t fly home I’m feeling more like this is owning a boat where I just dump money in the water.

If I sold the plane, I think I would recoup all of my expenses and not have a headache

How the flip does everybody deal with this? Thanks for listening.
 
Welcome to ownership.

It’s something I toy with the idea of owning the plane by myself. Then I remind myself that most of the time the two partners with more free time and closer to the airport takes care of all the maintenance events and all I have to do is pay my share of costs.

Plus we have a heated hangar via one of the partners. And in the end I accept that I can’t make decisions for everything and I can’t book it every weekend.

Some of what you mentioned seems like over maintenance but can’t tell without details. A new engine can fail just as an older one. And new avionics well they can have problems too.

You’ll work your way past the teething issues, but you need to keep in mind that next thing will pop up and you’ll be out some money and time again. It’s why the common response to someone looking to lower cost of training by buying or to build hours comes with the warning that maybe renting is ultimately cheaper and more time efficient.

Keep in mind these are hobbies if you don’t make money from it directly or indirectly. That might help.
 
SebIp said:
Welcome to ownership.

It’s something I toy with the idea of owning the plane by myself. Then I remind myself that most of the time the two partners with more free time and closer to the airport takes care of all the maintenance events and all I have to do is pay my share of costs.

Plus we have a heated hangar via one of the partners. And in the end I accept that I can’t make decisions for everything and I can’t book it every weekend.

Some of what you mentioned seems like over maintenance but can’t tell without details. A new engine can fail just as an older one. And new avionics well they can have problems too.

You’ll work your way past the teething issues, but you need to keep in mind that next thing will pop up and you’ll be out some money and time again. It’s why the common response to someone looking to lower cost of training by buying or to build hours comes with the warning that maybe renting is ultimately cheaper and more time efficient.

Keep in mind these are hobbies if you don’t make money from it directly or indirectly. That might help.
Click to expand...
Yes over maintenance on my end
Engine was 25yrs and 2250 hrs though
 
4RNB said:
Yes over maintenance on my end
Engine was 25yrs and 2250 hrs though
Click to expand...
There are plenty of engines like that still flying daily.

On condition is something to consider.

Ours is close to tbo and last overhauled in 1997 I think. Some of the partners keep thinking it’ll go, but I’ll just keep up with the oil analysis and bore scoping. At one point we had a vibration that almost prompted overhaul but the engine shop said we were insane and should fix the peoblem as if we get a new engine and it didn’t fix the problem we’d be out lots of money for nothing. Yeah that shop likely has our business when it comes time. They were right and now we keep flying the same engine.
 
Learning to fly and learning plane ownership are not usually best done together.

If ownership isn’t fun, sell. Or get a partner. But one thing is for sure, there’s a whole lot of stuff an involved owner can do to increase reliability without even turning a wrench. That takes learning systems and understanding mechanical concepts. Beyond that, there’s a whole lot of preventive maintenance an owner can do without an A&P.

On a side note, having a partner with an A&P isn’t always good or bad, but it sure can be helpful. Even with an instrument rating, traveling by single engine piston has limits and if those aren’t acceptable to you, get out.
 
Writing checks while not flying is never fun. That's the crap part of ownership, just like if a furnace/water heater/AC unit goes out in the house. Yeah it's a mouthful of donkey balls, but what's the alternative? Have a crap landlord and a worse rental with awful neighbors? Same goes for flying. You're gonna miss it if you bail on it, and then you're stuck with rentals and fighting with other renters and maybe shoddy upkeep.

You'll get back up in the air, the big checks will stop going out, and all will be right with the world.
 
OTOH, you have a freshly painted airplane with new glass, a fresh engine, and a new panel.

You have the major issues addressed. Yes, there will be other things happening, but that applies to anything you do.

Only you can make the decision if flying is for you. But as I buzz along at altitude, on MY schedule, I would not get out of flying.
 
You make things better by trying to optimize every little hiccup encountered along the way - sadly, there's no magic bullet.

Apply the 90-90 rule of aviation - the first 90% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money. The remaining 10% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.
Also encountered as "Double whatever the estimate is and add 50%".
It sucks, I know. But most of the aviation mods being done (even at the more expensive level) are one-offs, which means there are always unforeseen gotchas along the way. There's very little cookie cutter work where you can take a previous estimate and be 100% sure the new job will go the same way. And most shops can't afford to be honest and tell you how things actually work, because they'll lose the business as you'll go to the ones telling you it will take half the time (even if they also know it'll most likely take more). You, as an owner, might as well add a healthy buffer to their time estimates and plan accordingly. And if that means you're not going to do that job now, so be it.
See what happened with the Cougar crash. The pilot was in a rush to deliver the plane to the new owner. Skipped a good preflight and there were no post-maintenance checkout flights because "he had a return flight booked from Tennessee". Yes, they took longer than they planned to complete the work. Trying to meet the deadline resulted in the plane being destroyed and the pilot killed. If that was my shop, I'd find a way to calm you down, give you a full tank of gas and thank you for your patience. I'd know better than to rush things and get you injured/killed in the process.

Even if you don't go for your A&P certificate, work with your A&P/IA as much as you can. Owner assisted annuals and maintenance/upgrades are a great way to control schedule and cost slips. Learn your aircraft inside and out, and always plan ahead in terms of upgrades. I've been slowly upgrading my panel over the years, one instrument/nav box at a time. Time it around the annual or some other downtime, build the harness and any other brackets/mounting hardware on the bench and then make it a quick install once the aircraft is ready. The more you get involved with this, the easier it will be. Even if it takes the same time, now you're involved in the process and it somehow feels less stressful to blame yourself for the delays vs blaming others.

Also, sometimes you have to make a (potentially tough) decision of getting 90% of what you want (capability-wise) today, or waiting a year for parts or a shop to become available. I've chosen the route of 90% today. Do I sometimes miss the extra 10%? Yes. Was it nice to get the plane back in the air in a week? You betcha!

Get your hands dirty, learn a few things and work well with your A&P. Things will be better.
 
I feel you. Went new experimental rather than legacy certificated after ppl.

Seems that both routes have teething issues that eventually get sorted to satisfaction.

Hang out at your local repair shop and you'll get a feel for time and prices for repairs. You may want to sit or lay down and keep a defibrillator handy.

Your first few annuals, depending on pre-buy quality will be brutal. My local shop has a reman engine sitting ready for a first-time customer and they then discovered so much airframe corrosion that the plane may be totaled.

And expectations for complex work like avionics upgrades to be done in a timely fashion have to be managed. You're dealing with boutique craftsmen, not the Ford dealer. Everything takes forever.

Like you, I'm also in the 'not comfortable/overconfident' pilot phase. My ppl training was a total hassle and I really don't enjoy flying.

Its a means to an end, but I really don't have 'a mission' right now until I can find the right land to put in a strip. Finding that Goldilocks property is something I should have started with years ago.

I hear somewhere along the way the 'enjoyment' happens, it just hasn't happened for me yet.
 
Writing checks sucks.... Waiting for the airplane to be done sucks.... Unexpected setbacks suck.....

That sunset flight after you get it back... That weekend trip that only makes sense because you can get there quicker by air... That long cross country trip instead of riding cattle class...

WORTH EVERY MUTHA F%@KIN PENNY AND BIT OF AGGRAVATION :cool:

Thats how I make it work in my head, but my head is pretty empty so mileage may vary.
 
Even when everything is new and/or updated, aircraft will never be as maintenance free as late model cars are. A person’s ownership experience will generally be negative I f that is the expectation. With that said, most aircraft generally aren’t maintenance intensive either, as long as everything is brought up to an acceptable standard and kept there.

The best parallel I have for aircraft ownership is little British cars and vintage European motorcycles. No matter how perfect they are, they could always use a little more work to be leak and problem free, but they are generally useable whenever you want to drive or ride them.
 
When you fly your airplane, they also get trashed quickly. I used to wash and clean my airplane after every flight but I’ve gotten lazy to doing that. After putting on a few hundred hours I’m like wow the paint is getting all messed up, noticing the things that are getting old, I’m like wow she’s beat up. Or maybe I’m finally seeing things and the honeymoon phase is over lol. But just take it slow, try to know what you have, fly it, and each time make notes of things you need to fix. I’ll find a missing screw and then try to find a replacement or I’ll make notes such as the door doesn’t latch properly. But nothing is perfect, I try to do the small things, if I don’t want to bother with it or I want the airplane ready to fly then I send a text to my mechanic and he goes there and fixes it. He doesn’t like to do cosmetic stuff or upgrades but he will fix it when it’s down and recommend what to do next.
 
My 30 year flying experience has been that the Mx headaches never end. New plane, old plane, newly-rebuilt old plane, it makes no difference.

Then, when everything is running good, the weather screws up your plans.

If you have to wait for someone else to fix your plane or do the annual, the frustrations are further added to.

If you have all-glass panel you have a whole new world of never-ending software issues, recalibration, updates, glitches, most of which you have to wait again for some else to fix.

The more you fly it, the more MX time required.

GA aircraft are a part-time dispatch proposition. You can never be certain your future plans (anything beyond the next few days) will be do-able with your aircraft. This is the reality.

Even if you're rich, you generally can't buy your way out of this reality. With the possible exception of hiring a full time A&P.

My solution was to build and maintain my own plane. I still have never-ending Mx issues but the wait time is cut down because I fix it myself. This however, takes a lot of personal time.

If you can accept the reality, owning your own aircraft can be very rewarding. If you can't, it just becomes a painful ordeal.

The happiest day......
 
Lndwarrior said:
My 30 year flying experience has been that the Mx headaches never end. New plane, old plane, newly-rebuilt old plane, it makes no difference.

Then, when everything is running good, the weather screws up your plans.

If you have to wait for someone else to fix your plane or do the annual, the frustrations are further added to.

If you have all-glass panel you have a whole new world of never-ending software issues, recalibration, updates, glitches, most of which you have to wait again for some else to fix.

The more you fly it, the more MX time required.

GA aircraft are a part-time dispatch proposition. You can never be certain your future plans (anything beyond the next few days) will be do-able with your aircraft. This is the reality.

Even if you're rich, you generally can't buy your way out of this reality. With the possible exception of hiring a full time A&P.

My solution was to build and maintain my own plane. I still have never-ending Mx issues but the wait time is cut down because I fix it myself. This however, takes a lot of personal time.

If you can accept the reality, owning your own aircraft can be very rewarding. If you can't, it just becomes a painful ordeal.

The happiest day......
Click to expand...

New planes too, darn there goes that sales point with my financial officer.
I want to buy my way out!
I'd love to build, but I am 6'6", and while dropping weight, I am large. Tried RV10/14. Might enjoy Bushliner 1850.
 
TCABM said:
Learning to fly and learning plane ownership are not usually best done together.

If ownership isn’t fun, sell. Or get a partner. But one thing is for sure, there’s a whole lot of stuff an involved owner can do to increase reliability without even turning a wrench. That takes learning systems and understanding mechanical concepts. Beyond that, there’s a whole lot of preventive maintenance an owner can do without an A&P.

On a side note, having a partner with an A&P isn’t always good or bad, but it sure can be helpful. Even with an instrument rating, traveling by single engine piston has limits and if those aren’t acceptable to you, get out.
Click to expand...

On partner, at this point the plane is so nice, I'd worry about sharing it with anyone other than family (and they have turned down free use for instruction).
 
4RNB said:
New planes too, darn there goes that sales point with my financial officer.
I want to buy my way out!
Click to expand...

Assuming you want to buy your way out of maintenance headaches or problems, it won’t happen. There are benefits to buying the nicest, newest airframe you can find but there will still be things needing continuous care. And many of the fancier, newer aircraft have airworthiness limitations on them that require more periodic care than the older aircraft have.

I’ve had to perform major repairs on aircraft with less than 100 hours total time on them. It’s not necessarily a common event but something that needs to be considered. Aircraft are not cars and cannot be operated like one.
 
AV8R_87 said:
You make things better by trying to optimize every little hiccup encountered along the way - sadly, there's no magic bullet.

Apply the 90-90 rule of aviation - the first 90% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money. The remaining 10% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.
Also encountered as "Double whatever the estimate is and add 50%".
It sucks, I know. But most of the aviation mods being done (even at the more expensive level) are one-offs, which means there are always unforeseen gotchas along the way. There's very little cookie cutter work where you can take a previous estimate and be 100% sure the new job will go the same way. And most shops can't afford to be honest and tell you how things actually work, because they'll lose the business as you'll go to the ones telling you it will take half the time (even if they also know it'll most likely take more). You, as an owner, might as well add a healthy buffer to their time estimates and plan accordingly. And if that means you're not going to do that job now, so be it.
See what happened with the Cougar crash. The pilot was in a rush to deliver the plane to the new owner. Skipped a good preflight and there were no post-maintenance checkout flights because "he had a return flight booked from Tennessee". Yes, they took longer than they planned to complete the work. Trying to meet the deadline resulted in the plane being destroyed and the pilot killed. If that was my shop, I'd find a way to calm you down, give you a full tank of gas and thank you for your patience. I'd know better than to rush things and get you injured/killed in the process.

Even if you don't go for your A&P certificate, work with your A&P/IA as much as you can. Owner assisted annuals and maintenance/upgrades are a great way to control schedule and cost slips. Learn your aircraft inside and out, and always plan ahead in terms of upgrades. I've been slowly upgrading my panel over the years, one instrument/nav box at a time. Time it around the annual or some other downtime, build the harness and any other brackets/mounting hardware on the bench and then make it a quick install once the aircraft is ready. The more you get involved with this, the easier it will be. Even if it takes the same time, now you're involved in the process and it somehow feels less stressful to blame yourself for the delays vs blaming others.

Also, sometimes you have to make a (potentially tough) decision of getting 90% of what you want (capability-wise) today, or waiting a year for parts or a shop to become available. I've chosen the route of 90% today. Do I sometimes miss the extra 10%? Yes. Was it nice to get the plane back in the air in a week? You betcha!

Get your hands dirty, learn a few things and work well with your A&P. Things will be better.
Click to expand...
Thanks!

On this particular post maintenance check flight, I don't think the paint shop normally does them. I just asked if one was done and the guy offered if my insurance covered it so he did. I'm glad it got done.

I try to involve myself as much as possible (attended Cessna 172 class), but have had issues:
1. Local mechanic has health issues and seems to work irregularly.
2. Local 2- bad history
3. Another guy that solicited my business became unavailable as time went on (and he also improperly sampled oil prompting Blackstone calling me for screwy results).
4. Another guy said I needed anew engine when it was a $75 crankcase seal.
5. As it is, currently fly >hr to a shop I trust. But they juggle lots of planes and it was not easy to watch lengthy upgrades. I hope to beg/pay to be present for next annual.
 
mondtster said:
Even when everything is new and/or updated, aircraft will never be as maintenance free as late model cars are. A person’s ownership experience will generally be negative I f that is the expectation. With that said, most aircraft generally aren’t maintenance intensive either, as long as everything is brought up to an acceptable standard and kept there.

The best parallel I have for aircraft ownership is little British cars and vintage European motorcycles. No matter how perfect they are, they could always use a little more work to be leak and problem free, but they are generally useable whenever you want to drive or ride them.
Click to expand...
Mine is now WELL up to standard, except for the flux capacitor.
 
mondtster said:
Assuming you want to buy your way out of maintenance headaches or problems, it won’t happen. There are benefits to buying the nicest, newest airframe you can find but there will still be things needing continuous care. And many of the fancier, newer aircraft have airworthiness limitations on them that require more periodic care than the older aircraft have.

I’ve had to perform major repairs on aircraft with less than 100 hours total time on them. It’s not necessarily a common event but something that needs to be considered. Aircraft are not cars and cannot be operated like one.
Click to expand...
I think sticking with a lowly 172 is in my future!
 
Okay, big picture update to the day.

Voltage alarm came and went, mostly went. An avionics guy said that the voltage monitoring was being done on the avionics bus, needs to be on the battery bus. A mechanic said start up voltage of 14.5V was too high, tried to look for a set screw on the voltage regulator (Plane Power) but there was not one.

A fitting on the oil was tightened, assumed to be fix, will revisit.

I flew home, no issues. Email sent to my IA avionics guy asking about things.

 
4RNB said:
Okay, big picture update to the day.

Voltage alarm came and went, mostly went. An avionics guy said that the voltage monitoring was being done on the avionics bus, needs to be on the battery bus. A mechanic said start up voltage of 14.5V was too high, tried to look for a set screw on the voltage regulator (Plane Power) but there was not one.

A fitting on the oil was tightened, assumed to be fix, will revisit.

I flew home, no issues. Email sent to my IA avionics guy asking about things.

Click to expand...

Unless things have changed, the plane power regulator is adjustable. You have to pull the cover off to get to the trim pot.
 
4RNB said:
A mechanic said start up voltage of 14.5V was too high, tried to look for a set screw on the voltage regulator (Plane Power) but there was not one.
Click to expand...
There is, but you have to take the cover off. There's a potentiometer in there. Refer to the documentation. It's sensitive, so be careful; you need to adjust it 0.001 gender- and ethnicity-neutral hairs at a time.
 
You're not alone in the feeling. I exited the hobby last Fall after 14 years (minus a 12 month gap between airplane #1 and #2) and 3 airplanes. Engine cracked and the event deemed a non-insurable, so I balked once the engine quotes (and unwillingness to IRAN from the vendors) came around, but especially the backlog. Between you and my friends, it was more the insult to injury of the lead times and the lack of options/flexibility for the stated price that led me to quit, than the money itself. Though the fact the airplane wasn't my forever airplane did steer the decision to part ways and sell instead of buying someone else an overpriced refreshed engine I wasn't going to fly for 2000 hours anyways.

The headaches were small but constant, but not really all that surprising. Again the rules is what eroded my enjoyment in the end, though the specter of AOG costs (on the logistics side, not the mx-proper side) became a bigger and bigger damper in my enjoyment of the toy, especially in the last 2 years of my participation. Consider I had a lot less money at the beginning years of the hobby than at the end. My tolerance for this BS should have increased, not decreased, if money was the issue. So I was legit surprised to find out just how little appetite I had to continue to accept the status quo when my financial position actually became more comfortable. As such, I grew to despise the "it is what it is" attitude and "marry the mechanic/hangar, date the airplane" ludicrous proposition for a recreational pursuit, nonsense I suppose I had tacitly white-knuckled for decades. The engine just made it "easy" to finally pull the plug on my "loved one", and that saint of a wife I have who finally slapped me in the head and said "dude, you're either having fun or you're not, if you're not screw it".

The family also pivoted into lesser opportunities to fly together, and the destinations became problematic to navigate enjoyably (long distances into icing latitudes). I do miss taking those trips to the beach with the fam though, and I truly miss that part. They're fond memories, and they always will be. I don't regret that part. And I don't regret the second airplane which single handedly allowed me to create and maintain the family I have today. it's no exaggeration, it happened because of what little warrior allowed me to do every other weekend. So I give credit where credit is due.

Since the quit, the amount of boosted savings has been eye opening, that has been addictive. It's not conjecture I could probably shave a few years off my retirement age if I were to continue this path. Alas, I'm too much of a glutton for punishment, and as such continue to eyeball a re-entry via EAB. I also have a bit of a every weekend commute issue with my new job coming up, that a 150knot experimental could really smooth out. But for now I continue driving it as the market hasn't really settled back into my desired price point.

Anyways, digressing. No right or wrong answer, you're not alone in the feeling was my long winded point. Cheers.
 
All I can say is that over time maintenance issues calm down to a dull roar. It is a fallacy that new installations are trouble free. Be it engines, engine parts, or avionics, failures tend to happen early or late in their useful lives. Once the initial issues are addressed, they tend not to recur until near end-of-useful-life.

As an example, my old engine became a maintenance pig after 1800 hours. When I put in a new engine, it ran great but was plagued with minor oil leaks and seeps. Once addressed properly, it has been trouble free for hundreds of hours.

Same thing with a NGT-9000 and dual G5 install. The NGT-9000 had a flaky touchscreen that randomly caused it to lock up. The G5s had a manufacturing defect that caused a backup battery drain. After much back and forth, both the NGT-9000 and G5s were replaced under warranty or SB and have been flawless since.
 
Is this your first plane? Is sounds like you did a full restoration - engine, panel, and paint! That degree of work will always have gremlins to work out. Guessing another 25-50 hours and things will be much more wrung out.
 
From my experience it is best learning to fly is do it in a school plane, let them worry about the plane and you get to beat it up learning to land.
My mind was maxed out learning to fly and had no time to learn how to take care of a new to me plane. Plus like you said it causes too many delays getting your training finished.
I can relate because after I got my PPL I bought a 172 from friend and started using my plane halfway through instrument training. Then I had lots more pressure on me making sure it was ready to go.

But the biggest advantage I have is my plane came with a local AP/IA who has been working on this plane on and off since 1990. I have known him for a while before I bought the plane and he trust me to do my own maintenance and repairs. He lives 2 miles from the airport and will come by just about anytime I call him. I take tons of pictures that I share with him so he knows what I am doing. He also signs off on my AMT log I have kept since 2018. So that is a big plus that makes it easier for me to keep the plane in the air and not in the shop. I have been a mechanic since I was a teenager.

Since all this I met another long time(50 years) AP/IA who I have worked with now for a while. He fully supports me. He is retiring soon and moving all of his tools into my buddy's hangar next door. So I have 2 of them that help me work on my plane.
I try to fly 3-7 days a week, 1250 hrs since 2018 in my 172, just starting to get the hang of it.
I know you have been wrestling with this 172 for a while now, I hope you can get some time in it soon and then decide what you want to do long term.
 
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You're normal.

Good advice on here. Major upgrades always seem to come with hiccups. In the long run, you'll have a sweet airplane that you can rely on.

Learning to work on it yourself will take much of the mystery out of things. Start with owner preventative maintenance and progress to repairs and alterations under the supervision of your A&P. You might even begin to enjoy chasing down squawks.
 
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