BFR and Logbook question

Bishop

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
12
Display Name

Display name:
Bishop
I have decided to get back into flying after many years. I took a discovery flight and now have gone up for the second time for more landing and some air work. I also updated my medical.

Here are my question. Shouldn't the CFI sign both of the enteries that he added in my log book as dual given? I just have a description of what we did but not his name or CFI number.

I looked back to my other BFRs and the previous instructors all signed each entry and once I met the BFR requirements, provided a formal sign-off in the back of the log book.
 
Shouldn't the CFI sign both of the enteries that he added in my log book as dual given?
Absolutely yes. Ref: 61.189(a).
I just have a description of what we did but not his name or CFI number.
Not enough.

I looked back to my other BFRs and the previous instructors all signed each entry and once I met the BFR requirements, provided a formal sign-off in the back of the log book.
Those were correct. Next time you see that instructor, get him to sign the previous entries.
 
Why would the instructor put much in the description? I usually see something like..."flight review conducted IAW FAR part 61.56" in the logbook entry note and then the appropriate entry in the endorsement section of the back.
 
Why would the instructor put much in the description? I usually see something like..."flight review conducted IAW FAR part 61.56" in the logbook entry note and then the appropriate entry in the endorsement section of the back.
If you're referring to Ron's "not enough" comment, I don't think he was referring to the description. It's the missing CFI signature and number.
 
Thank you all. I will ask him to sign the log book next time I go up.

Just curious, what can I do if he refuses to sign saying that the flights are not instructional but reviews? Will the log time count towards my total hours?
 
Thank you all. I will ask him to sign the log book next time I go up.

Just curious, what can I do if he refuses to sign saying that the flights are not instructional but reviews? Will the log time count towards my total hours?

If he has any integrity at all, he should sign the entries. IMO, there isn't much of a difference between instructional and review.

I am not sure why he didn't sign in the first place.
 
Based on the OP, after being away from flying for a few years it will take more than one session to get up to Flight Review standards. Each flight should have information on what was covered and dual received with the CFI information and sig.

The final flight, with required ground review annotated (1hr), should have the 61.56 endorsement, when the CFI feels he is ready.
 
Why would the instructor put much in the description? I usually see something like..."flight review conducted IAW FAR part 61.56" in the logbook entry note and then the appropriate entry in the endorsement section of the back.
Mark is right about the fact that I was talking about the lack of the instructor's signature/cert #/exp date, but the entry you suggest leaves the instructor way out on a legal limb. Since 61.56(a) does not specify any particular maneuvers or events, an instructor who puts a note like that in the remarks section is leaving him/herself wide open for serious problems if there is any question later about the thoroughness of the training. See "Does This Tiger Have a Tail?" for more on that issue.
http://www.midlifeflight.us/downloads/files/TigerByTheTail.pdf
Bottom line is the more detailed your documentation of training given, the better protected you are against any claims of inadequate instruction by either the trainee or the FAA. I don't care if it takes four lines in the trainee's logbook -- I document everything training event we accomplished.
 
Mark is right about the fact that I was talking about the lack of the instructor's signature/cert #/exp date, but the entry you suggest leaves the instructor way out on a legal limb. Since 61.56(a) does not specify any particular maneuvers or events, an instructor who puts a note like that in the remarks section is leaving him/herself wide open for serious problems if there is any question later about the thoroughness of the training. See "Does This Tiger Have a Tail?" for more on that issue.
http://www.midlifeflight.us/downloads/files/TigerByTheTail.pdf
Bottom line is the more detailed your documentation of training given, the better protected you are against any claims of inadequate instruction by either the trainee or the FAA. I don't care if it takes four lines in the trainee's logbook -- I document everything training event we accomplished.

I'll annotate the items covered during the flight(s) and the ground time in the log book with appropriate 61.56 words and sig. I also have a two page outline to follow and lead the ground discussions and what maneuvers we will cover and then use it during the debrief and comments. Both I and pilot sign and get a copy. My copy goes in my folder along with the 8710s I have endorsed.
 
Is it possible that he was not PIC legal?

Also - I never, ever let my CFIs write in the description anymore - I write the description, they put their CFI number next to it. If they have comments, they can add them if they really want to, but I have too many non-descript logbook entries from lazy CFIs during my primary training to continue to let CFIs laze up my logbook any further.

For example:
3/6/2004: KASH-KASH - Prep for solo
3/11/2004: KASH-KASH - Prep for solo
3/19/2004: KASH-KASH - Prep for solo
3/29/2004: KASH-KASH - Prep for solo
3/30/2004: KASH-KASH - Prep for solo

Or, the super awesome entry:
4/30/2004: Jeppesen Flight Lesson #8

Yeah, what great memories those are...
 
Just curious, what can I do if he refuses to sign saying that the flights are not instructional but reviews? Will the log time count towards my total hours?

Just to answer this part of the question, you paid him for instruction, right? But if he didn't sign the logbook and indicate that he provided instruction, you should ask for your money back. More accurately, you shouldn't have paid him until he did sign it, but it's a little late for that.

This is pretty basic "CFI 101" stuff - not sure why he wouldn't have signed it.

Refer him to:
§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

And yes, the logged time still counts.
 
Mark is right about the fact that I was talking about the lack of the instructor's signature/cert #/exp date, but the entry you suggest leaves the instructor way out on a legal limb. Since 61.56(a) does not specify any particular maneuvers or events, an instructor who puts a note like that in the remarks section is leaving him/herself wide open for serious problems if there is any question later about the thoroughness of the training. See "Does This Tiger Have a Tail?" for more on that issue.
http://www.midlifeflight.us/downloads/files/TigerByTheTail.pdf
Bottom line is the more detailed your documentation of training given, the better protected you are against any claims of inadequate instruction by either the trainee or the FAA. I don't care if it takes four lines in the trainee's logbook -- I document everything training event we accomplished.


Good to know...thanks.
 
I have decided to get back into flying after many years. I took a discovery flight and now have gone up for the second time for more landing and some air work. I also updated my medical.

Here are my question. Shouldn't the CFI sign both of the enteries that he added in my log book as dual given? I just have a description of what we did but not his name or CFI number.

I looked back to my other BFRs and the previous instructors all signed each entry and once I met the BFR requirements, provided a formal sign-off in the back of the log book.
Some logbooks have a place in the back of the logbook for signatures, etc.
All my BARF's are written up as usual like any other flight but the actual "official" sign off is done in a block on the last 6 or so pages...

Just a thought.

Chris
 
Some logbooks have a place in the back of the logbook for signatures, etc.
All my BARF's are written up as usual like any other flight but the actual "official" sign off is done in a block on the last 6 or so pages...
The signature for the flight training is separate from the signature for any particular endorsement either based on or in addition to the training entry. While usually the endorsement (with its own signature attesting to that endorsement) is usually in the back of the book, the instructor's signature for the training given must with the information about the training itself (i.e., the stuff listed in 61.51(b)). You don't sign the back of the book for the training logged in the main body.

BTW, I try not to make any record at all of my barfs -- I try to keep that just between me and the bag. :vomit:
 
Last edited:
He must sighn your logbook with his CFI # and it should be Dual. Mark Jack CFI
Not just "should," it must be "training time." No training time, no legal flight review. 14 CFR 61.56(a). And (notwithstanding the case where 61.56(f) applies), there must be at least an hour each of both flight and ground training time logged to meet the regulatory requirement.
 
Last edited:
Not just "should," it must be "training time." No training time, no legal flight review. 14 CFR 61.56(a). And (notwithstanding the case where 61.56(f) applies), there must be at least an hour each of both flight and ground training time logged to meet the regulatory requirement.

How do you log ground time? Does the endorsement in the back cover it? Do you use a line in the logbook? Training folder?
 
How do you log ground time?
Just as it says in 61.51(b):
1) General--

  • (i) Date.
    (ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
    (iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
    (iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate. (v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by Sec. 91.109 of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training--

  • (i) Solo.
    (ii) Pilot in command.
    (iii) Second in command.
    (iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor. (v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight--

  • (i) Day or night.
    (ii) Actual instrument.
    (iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device. (iv) Use of night vision goggles in an aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator, or in a flight training device.
So, when I give ground training, I log the date, the amount of time, and the subjects covered, plus the standard signature/CFI#/exp date.

Does the endorsement in the back cover it?
If you mean the flight review endorsement per AC 61-65, no, not unless you include the 61.51-mandated data in that endorsement, too, which I've never seen but I suppose is possible.

Do you use a line in the logbook? Training folder?
Most student/standard pilot logbooks have a section in the back for Ground Training, and if that's there, I use it. If not, I put it on a line in the logbook, entering the appropriate data. Putting it in a training folder doesn't help the trainee unless s/he, rather than the training provider, keeps the folder.

And yes, the FAA is getting sticky on this point, having instructed examiners to check that there is ground training logged in all the required areas per the appropriate section (e.g., 61.105 for PP). If those squares aren't all filled, they're supposed to cancel the test, send the applicant back for more logged training, and if it's a pattern with an instructor, notify the FSDO for further review of that instructor's practices.
 
And yes, the FAA is getting sticky on this point, having instructed examiners to check that there is ground training logged in all the required areas per the appropriate section (e.g., 61.105 for PP). If those squares aren't all filled, they're supposed to cancel the test, send the applicant back for more logged training, and if it's a pattern with an instructor, notify the FSDO for further review of that instructor's practices.

Yes, you were going to post that so called memo a long time ago. :dunno:

Seems a bit odd the FAA would issue such a memo to examiners and not make any mention to Instructors. :rolleyes2:
 
Yes, you were going to post that so called memo a long time ago. :dunno:

Seems a bit odd the FAA would issue such a memo to examiners and not make any mention to Instructors. :rolleyes2:
Most of the examiners I see seem aware of it already, so I'm not concerned about finding it. But you feel free to do what you want when endorsing your trainees for practical tests. As for not mentioning it to instructors, I know there are a lot of things sent to examiners by AFS-600 which aren't sent to all instructors.
 
Most of the examiners I see seem aware of it already, so I'm not concerned about finding it.

But you posted this a while back:

I just called AFS-640, and they confirmed that such guidance was sent out some time ago and that this is being covered in the roving DPE seminars. I should have a copy of that guidance early next week, and I'll share it when I get it.


And my former colleagues in the Agency haven't heard or seen any such memo.


As for not mentioning it to instructors, I know there are a lot of things sent to examiners by AFS-600 which aren't sent to all instructors.

True. But something that would directly affect Instructors (such as your mystery directive) would be disseminated to all concerned. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
If I have time, I'll see what I can do. No guarantees, but memo or no memo, any instructor who signs off a trainee without complying with the regulations is taking a serious risk.
 
How do you log ground time? Does the endorsement in the back cover it? Do you use a line in the logbook? Training folder?
For FRs, I just include it in the same line item as the flight and in a separate document I use for instructional flights (that both I and the student keep).
 
Risk of what? Actually seeing the document that supposedly governs all this?

If I have time, I'll see what I can do. No guarantees, but memo or no memo, any instructor who signs off a trainee without complying with the regulations is taking a serious risk.
 
Here is an update. I casually stated to my CFI that he forgot to sign his name in my log book for the past few flights and he was surprised. He said that he must have forgotten. He finally did sign and provide his CFI # to all entries and completed the back of the log book for BFR. I just need to keep an eye of each entry to make sure versus looking at it when I get home.
 
Back
Top