Beta eCTOL in the house!

[chemgeek]

I spotted a visitor at the Hamilton Municipal Airport today on my way to the hangar to fuel and and go flying today: a Beta eCTOL aircraft on its way back from Oshkosh. I had a chance to chat with the pilot and get some photos, and scored a nice hat to boot. This airplane will carry 5 pax or 1200+ lb or cargo with a range of 200 nm with a 1 hour reserve. Charges with a level 3 (up to 350 kW) CCS1 charger, just like my EV. We don't have a suitable charging station at our airport, but they sent their company charging truck along to charge it up in less than and hour. The total cost for the charge at our airport was I think around $37. I can relate. My EV costs less than $4 to charge up to 100%.

The takeoff roll was interesting. Very quiet except for the hum of the propeller. It did not rotate until 2/3 down the 5300 foot runway, near taxiway Delta. On their way to Saratoga Springs. They would normally stop in Rome, where they have a charging station, but were bored with that stop and with their usual next stop in Glens Falls.

 

[Salty]

All you need is a truck to drive around behind you to charge.

I kid. I kid.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

That fuselage is way more massive than I expected from the couple of photos I've seen of it.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Cruise?

 

[tsts4]

We saw it at Osh. Pretty neat but not practical with only a 200nm range and no charging infrastructure.

 

[RyanShort1]

From the demo at Oshkosh.

 

[Ed Haywood]

All you need is a truck to drive around behind you to charge.

Or a REALLY long cable.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

>/=100kts GS northbound Friday (wind unknown)

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N336MR/history/20250808/1044Z/KALB/KBTV

I enjoy watching the e-volution of these aircraft.
Over the years, it has gone from impossible to unmanned ‘toys’, to manned, but short hops around the airport, now this; longer, but slow. I know these capabilities will continue to improve, and then commercial activity will also blossum.

 

[chemgeek]

Cruise?

100 knots, more or less. It's a giant box with wings.

 

[Ed Haywood]

It's a giant box with wings.

Begs the question: why?

 

[chemgeek]

We saw it at Osh. Pretty neat but not practical with only a 200nm range and no charging infrastructure.

They have installed a lot of cherging infrastructure in the northeast. Near me, they have a charge station at Rome (KRME). If the cable is long enough, they would be able,to use any CCS1 car charger. The reason they designed theirmkwn charger is to make it shorter (so as to fit under the wings) and have a 50 foot cable.

 

[chemgeek]

Begs the question: why?

I think the market they envision is short haul parcel delivery, e.g. UPS and Amazon. It will be interesting to see if there is a market for this type of route. If so, the operational costs are compelling, much like driving an EV automobile.

There other aircraft is a eVTOL that looks to be suited for air taxi ops.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I think the market they envision is short haul parcel delivery, e.g. UPS and Amazon. It will be interesting to see if there is a market for this type of route. If so, the operational costs are compelling, much like driving an EV automobile.

Interesting. Makes sense if they are trying to achieve 100% air delivery. Heavy iron to regional hub airport, eCTOL to local delivery center, drone to the door. Would raise the demand for smaller airfields.

We are seeing some of this at our local airfield. Amazon sniffing around, trying to build up drone infrastructure. Plus some other drone companies looking for a base of operations. Probably going to go to a split pattern, airplanes on north side of 09-27, drones on south side.

 

[tsts4]

O

They have installed a lot of cherging infrastructure in the northeast. Near me, they have a charge station at Rome (KRME). If the cable is long enough, they would be able,to use any CCS1 car charger. The reason they designed theirmkwn charger is to make it shorter (so as to fit under the wings) and have a 50 foot cable.

ok one airport in one region — how many others? I get that they are more and that number might be growing, emphasis on might, but I stand by my assertion that it’s impractical at the moment.

 

[RyanShort1]

Ok one airport in one region — how many others? I get that they are more and that number might be growing, emphasis on might, but I stand by my assertion that it’s impractical at the moment.

Gotta start somewhere. I’m sure they’ll look at numbers and figure out where it makes sense and where it doesn’t.

 

[DaleB]

“Impractical at the moment” also would have been a good description of microcomputers in the late 70s and early 80s. Ideas about the technology we have today - heck, the technology we had 20 years ago - were usually dismissed as impossible and impractical.

 

[Ed Haywood]

“Impractical at the moment” also would have been a good description of microcomputers in the late 70s and early 80s. Ideas about the technology we have today - heck, the technology we had 20 years ago - were usually dismissed as impossible and impractical.

Cell phones.

 

[Salty]

“Impractical at the moment” also would have been a good description of microcomputers in the late 70s and early 80s. Ideas about the technology we have today - heck, the technology we had 20 years ago - were usually dismissed as impossible and impractical.

Sure, but we hadn’t been trying and failing to make computers and cell phones viable for > 50 years.

 

[DaleB]

Sure, but we hadn’t been trying and failing to make computers and cell phones viable for > 50 years.

I don't know about that. People who talked about "computers you could carry in your pocket" or wear on your wrist in the 1960s, 70s, or 80s were dismissed as unrealistic at best. Star Trek debuted in 1966, with a ship's computer that did things on screen that were utterly impossible at the time (and of course dismissed as mere science fiction). That sort of thing didn't really become a reality until more than 50 years later, despite people trying to make it happen. If they hadn't tried for 50 years, well, it never would have happened.

Aside from that, there needn't be a perfect parallel for what I said to be valid. Battery and electric motor technology has not really advanced, and probably will not advance, in the exact same fashion or at the same pace as electronics. People couldn't have predicted the development and impact of, for example, CMOS integrated circuits back in the days of Apollo. I can remember not all that long ago lithium battery technology being discussed as a laboratory curiosity, with no widespread practical application. Things change; despite our best efforts and all we don't really know what we don't know.

As has been previously noted, we've seen electric powered airplanes go from a pipe dream to this - a flying delivery van that can go 200 NM on a charge. Electric cars have gone from impractical curiosity to viable transportation (for many) in a fairly short amount of time. And how long DID it take before rocket ships could return from space and land upright on a pad, like they did in 1950s sci-fi movies?

I'll be the first to agree that there has been a huge volume of hype, snake-oil salesmen, wishful thinking, lies, chicanery, and so on in the E-whatever market, but there most definitely is progress being made, and I see no real reason to think it's going to hit a wall that can't eventually be gone over, through, around, or under. I may not live to see the end of the piston era, but we're seeing the dawn of the electric era for sure.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Sure, but we hadn’t been trying and failing to make computers and cell phones viable for > 50 years.

I'll toss your own comments back at you...

All electric has yet to be able to do a burger run -

This one can do a burger run- see below.

I spotted a visitor at the Hamilton Municipal Airport today on my way to the hangar to fuel and and go flying today: a Beta eCTOL aircraft on its way back from Oshkosh. I had a chance to chat with the pilot and get some photos, and scored a nice hat to boot. This airplane will carry 5 pax or 1200+ lb or cargo with a range of 200 nm with a 1 hour reserve

There's been quite a bit of progress, in just 3 years.

I'll believe the "progress" when I actually see progress.

Cars are available in other parts of the world with 650 mile range that charge quickly. And those are likely to be superseded in a few years.

 

[GeorgeC]

Over the years, it has gone from impossible to unmanned ‘toys’, to manned, but short hops around the airport, now this; longer, but slow. I know these capabilities will continue to improve, and then commercial activity will also blossum.

Weird how that happens.

 

[chemgeek]

O

ok one airport in one region — how many others? I get that they are more and that number might be growing, emphasis on might, but I stand by my assertion that it’s impractical at the moment.

There is more than one. RME is the nearest charging station to my home airport. They have a bunch of airports with charging available in the northeast and a few down the east coast. they have designed their own charging box that can be deployed at any airport. It's basically the same as a car charger but not as tall and with a longer cord.

The business is in their infancy. We will see if there is a viable niche market for short haul parcel delivery or taxi transport. They just leased 25 of the eCTOLs in Norway. So that's a start.

Like EV cars, the operating costs are very attractive. They can top up their battery for what it costs me for a few gallons of gasoline.

 

[chemgeek]

“Impractical at the moment” also would have been a good description of microcomputers in the late 70s and early 80s. Ideas about the technology we have today - heck, the technology we had 20 years ago - were usually dismissed as impossible and impractical.

Yes. There is more computing and graphics power in my pocket now than was available in the mainframes I used to work on my Ph.D. in the 70s. I can actually do protein structure modeling on my phone. Crazy.

The first EV cars were...marginally useful. EVs now are very close to the same experience as gasoline vehicles. That took little more than a decade. (And the Chinese are way ahead of us. Travel to Europe and you will see.)

What has happened is the energy density X efficiency numbers have crept up to the point that electric automobiles are viable, albeit at the cost of gross weight. (My hatchback EV weighs as much as my 3 row SUV.)

Electric aviation faces more challenges than autos in that there are chemistry limits to energy density in batteries, and the weight penalty is more severe than in ground transportation, but to have reached a point that you can haul more than a half-ton of cargo 100-200 nm in the air is real progress I did not anticipate.

 

[CaptainXap]

We saw it at Osh. Pretty neat but not practical with only a 200nm range and no charging infrastructure.

From https://beta.team/stories/betas-growing-charge-network:



I watched the Flight Chops video about these folks - they are building out a charging network, and because the charging equipment is the same as the equipment used by EVs, their network can be used by other EVs at the airports. I think they mentioned some airports that had electric fueling trucks, for instance.

 

[Ed Haywood]

It always puzzles me when I see lack of infrastructure cited as a limitation of EV's. There are few things easier than installing chargers. Way less challenging than setting up and supporting fuel distro.

 

[tsts4]

From https://beta.team/stories/betas-growing-charge-network:
View attachment 143977


I watched the Flight Chops video about these folks - they are building out a charging network, and because the charging equipment is the same as the equipment used by EVs, their network can be used by other EVs at the airports. I think they mentioned some airports that had electric fueling trucks, for instance.

That's a start. I hope they can close all the gaps. 200 nm plus weather with just a handful of stations is not an ideal mix.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Weird how that happens.

I skipped the part about all the negativity and disbelieving that happens during that time!

 

[bonefishpete]

All you need is a truck to drive around behind you to charge.

I kid. I kid.

GoodYear Blimp always had a chase truck following them. So?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Electric aviation faces more challenges than autos in that there are chemistry limits to energy density in batteries, and the weight penalty is more severe than in ground transportation, but to have reached a point that you can haul more than a half-ton of cargo 100-200 nm in the air is real progress I did not anticipate.

The energy densities in batteries are getting better. I think a zinc-air battery matches the energy density for gasoline but those are future technology. Charging times are approaching those of filling a gasoline car/

 

[geezer]

I was sitting and reading at the beach, my sun limit had been reached.

Beside me, Norman Koon was playing with his laptop, and suddenly said "That is it!", hit save, closed the laptop, and said, "I need to test on the work computer, and verify what I have here."

I asked him what he had discovered, and he replied "The mix for super magnets".
He asked me to tell his wife that he had gone to work, find a ride home with a friend who was there (they had 2 kids there too).
She was furious, and filed for divorce shortly later, that had been the last straw.

He was correct, he had invented the super magnet, and eventually, his small share of the licensing fees made him a millionaire.

That was after alimony was set. She married an ordinary guy, and I hope lived happily ever after.

He died in an accident, his second wife is a millionaire.

Technology advances slowly, except when a breakthrough occurs, then the impossible becomes the standard

A number of years ago, I read that the average car had 27 super magnets in it, and these were ICE cars, not electric.

Tesla would not exist without super magnets.

 

[chemgeek]

The energy densities in batteries are getting better. I think a zinc-air battery matches the energy density for gasoline but those are future technology. Charging times are approaching those of filling a gasoline car/

The best zinc-air batteries have an energy density of 1.6 MJ/kg. Gasoline is 46 MJ/kg. Even accounting for ICE vs. electric motor efficiency, that's still a wide gap. The fundamental problem with electrochemical energy is the mass of the atomic nuclei composing the anode and cathode. The electrons weigh virtually nothing, but the atomic nuclei that harbor them are heavy. The ultimate electrochemical cell is a hydrogen (the lightest element) fuel cell, but hydrogen is notoriously difficult to store in either gaseous or liquid form. Lithium is the lightest, most practical element for anodes in a rechargeable, non-fuel cell. It has an atomic mass of 7 per electron supplied at the anode. Sodium, zinc, and other anode materials are even heavier, but have their own advantages in terms of cost and abundance. Then there is the cathode material, which needs to be a good electron acceptor. Lithium ion batteries have very heavy cathodes (iron phosphate or nickel-manganese-cobalt based materials) which is what limits their energy density. Sulfur is about the lightest solid nonmetal cathode element (atomic mass 32), and accordingly, there has been a lot of interest in Li-S battery systems, but there are lots of technical problems here, too. But the upper limit for electrochemical cells is 3-4V out of whatever materials you make them out of. The maximum energy you can extract from that voltage is determined by FxE where E is the potential in volts and F is Faraday's constant (96485 J/mol). For the lithium anode alone, the J/kg look great (around 40-50 MJ/kg), but then the cathode mass (and the electrolyte mass) just kills you in a lithium ion battery. And that's the best be can do for now. Further progress will require the cathode to be significantly lighter per electron transferred.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The best zinc-air batteries have an energy density of 1.6 MJ/kg. Gasoline is 46 MJ/kg. Even accounting for ICE vs. electric motor efficiency, that's still a wide gap.

Yes, that is correct. I misread something.

The ultimate electrochemical cell is a hydrogen (the lightest element) fuel cell, but hydrogen is notoriously difficult to store in either gaseous or liquid form.

Even as liquid form, it need a large volume for any range. People are working on that (ammonia, adsorption). Ole Henning was enamored about hydrogen but he never believed this.

Sulfur is about the lightest solid nonmetal cathode element (atomic mass 32), and accordingly, there has been a lot of interest in Li-S battery systems, but there are lots of technical problems here, too. But the upper limit for electrochemical cells is 3-4V out of whatever materials you make them out of. The maximum energy you can extract from that voltage is determined by FxE where E is the potential in volts and F is Faraday's constant (96485 J/mol). For the lithium anode alone, the J/kg look great (around 40-50 MJ/kg), but then the cathode mass (and the electrolyte mass) just kills you in a lithium ion battery. And that's the best be can do for now. Further progress will require the cathode to be significantly lighter per electron transferred.

And that's why they are working on silicon and other materials.

 

[Flocker]

It's going to happen here in the SE before you know it.

Interstate in the sky

 

[Bell206]

It's going to happen here in the SE before you know it.

Just to add, there are about a dozen other AAM routes and corridors in the development stage. When the FAAs NextGen plan was revised to expand UAM regionally as RAM, they reclassified that category under AAM. One of the interesting parts under AAM was state and local governments will have the ability to develop airspace/infrastructure plans in partnership with the FAA. Here's one of the recent documents on it: AAM I28 Plan

 

[chemgeek]

And that's why they are working on silicon and other materials.

Silicon (atomic mass 28) is close to the atomic mass of sulfur, but is suitable only as a lithiation (lithium ion sponge) electrode, not as a direct redox material like sulfur. This means the mass per electron equivalent transferred at the cathode my be much larger than 28g per mole of electrons.

There are very likely to be advances in rechargeable electrochemical cell energy densities, but chemistry and physics puts some hard limits on it. Yet, electochemical power is already sufficient to find niches in the transportation sector, including flight.

 

[40YearDream]

The thread title almost sounds like a bug infestation problem

 

[Salty]

Just to add, there are about a dozen other AAM routes and corridors in the development stage. When the FAAs NextGen plan was revised to expand UAM regionally as RAM, they reclassified that category under AAM. One of the interesting parts under AAM was state and local governments will have the ability to develop airspace/infrastructure plans in partnership with the FAA. Here's one of the recent documents on it: AAM I28 Plan

NEA

Not enough acronyms.

 

[GeorgeC]

I was sitting and reading at the beach, my sun limit had been reached.

Beside me, Norman Koon was playing with his laptop, and suddenly said "That is it!", hit save, closed the laptop, and said, "I need to test on the work computer, and verify what I have here."

I asked him what he had discovered, and he replied "The mix for super magnets".
He asked me to tell his wife that he had gone to work, find a ride home with a friend who was there (they had 2 kids there too).
She was furious, and filed for divorce shortly later, that had been the last straw.

He was correct, he had invented the super magnet, and eventually, his small share of the licensing fees made him a millionaire.

That was after alimony was set. She married an ordinary guy, and I hope lived happily ever after.

He died in an accident, his second wife is a millionaire.

Technology advances slowly, except when a breakthrough occurs, then the impossible becomes the standard

A number of years ago, I read that the average car had 27 super magnets in it, and these were ICE cars, not electric.

Tesla would not exist without super magnets.

@geezer, thanks for sharing this story.

 

[geezer]

Outstanding find, George.

I first met Norman when he arrived in Washington DC, 1969, and continued as friend as long as he lived. He was an avid skier, and hit a tree at high speed, breaking his neck, in 1997.

Socially, he was easy going, but when working on a theory, intense. The day before finding the solution, he had spent hours swimming with his 2 children and their friends, including my two sons.

The big day, he, like me, had too much sun leftover from the previous day, and stayed back at the dining room, also known as the game room. He had been at the laptop for many hours before the calm statement "that is it". I had no idea what he was working on, but since I did know it was a NRL laptop, it was work related, and did not look over his shoulder.