Being flexible in pattern planning Video - maybe interesting for fellow students

LongRoadBob

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This is the kind of video I like to find. I feel a little too uncertain of the jockeying and adjustments made at non towered airports when busy. Less formality can be a little daunting for a new student. I fly out of a non towered by so far hasn't been busy. These two twin bros are flying into a pancake breakfast (and are late to it, so folks are beginning to leave) at Cranland (28M) airport which has RWY 18-36. The right seat brother seems to be less gabby :) but I lik gabby in videos to hear what he thought process is like.

They are kinda starting out by playing it by ear it is seems me. None of what I write here is critique, just observation. They plan on joining downwind(y) for RWY 36. Not sure I got all the points but this brought up lot of thoughts.

As they nearer the airport and announce intentions, 7 miles out or so, they get a comm from a plane behind them following them "about 3 miles behind". 1: first question, is this assumed statute miles or NM in the US?

I like that th bros are easygoing, but still focused I think on the right points.
So they at some point broadcast again, nearer, intentions to 36, and another pilot just says he is back taxi to taking off on 18. They ask for wind, and are told it is a direct crosswind.
I looked at Crankand and didn't see a preferred RWY if just cross or no wind.

They still are planning on 36, decide to circle though to give time to the plane taking off?
But then another is queued up, wanting also to and they see apparently a few more in queue, so even still thinking they can make 36 the pilot decides to instead cross midfield, join LH for RWY 18 to go with the flow. He has now to tell everyone of course, but specifically the plane that was following them of his plan change.

Here I am a little uncertain, sounds like another plane announces he is on hold for 18 and the bros wonder why, I'm guessing because he still would have time to take then as they call base yet another flight coming in from the west, but has them in sight, and somewhere in here is a helicopter but I'm not sure where that fits in.

Anyway, this is just probably a normal Sunday for the experiment pilots, for me it would be a lot of nerves and all until I get used to it. Do I have the main points of what happened? Miss anything importantly? I watched it twice and ther seemed also to be a strange TPA (like 842 or something.)

Also, when they ask for wind, does one ever do a call out also asking for QNH from common freq? It might be important if this were a strange pattern alt, but how is it for experienced pilots, do you eyeball normal patter height without altimeter?

Lastly, I looked at an AD where they listed glide paths each runway. Think 18 was 14:1 and 36 was 10:1 because of trees at the ends. I'm not sure how I'd figure is out on the fly, my glide ratio.

Anyway, sharing for any comments, from anyone and for fellow low time students like me that want to see how you have to adjust plans and be flexible. I am really glad I saw this.



 
Also, when they ask for wind, does one ever do a call out also asking for QNH from common freq? It might be important if this were a strange pattern alt, but how is it for experienced pilots, do you eyeball normal patter height without altimeter?

Lastly, I looked at an AD where they listed glide paths each runway. Think 18 was 14:1 and 36 was 10:1 because of trees at the ends. I'm not sure how I'd figure is out on the fly, my glide ratio.

Anyway, sharing for any comments, from anyone and for fellow low time students like me that want to see how you have to adjust plans and be flexible. I am really glad I saw this.


I feel it is important to study the airport before leaving on the flight and I make notes.

We don’t generally use QHN in the USA.

I update my altimeter setting along the route. They can easily get the altimeter setting from the ATIS at the nearby large airport. The airport may also have an automated weather reporting system.

I know the height of the field and my pattern altitude in relation to MSL.

As far as the glide slope required; I think about that when deciding to fly to that airport during my flight planning. If I am not comfortable with the airport for any reason (length, glide slope, obstructions) I go elsewhere.

In this case I clear the trees and if I am high for my aiming point I reduce power.

I try to plan ahead for where I will turn off.

I also like to land near the windsock so I can see what the wind is doing there.
 
I like to do a lot of chair flying, and envision different entries to the pattern for runways in both directions. I do tend to look at lots of wind forecasts to get an idea of the runway that will most likely be in use.

Vance makes some great points, especially the one about researching the airport carefully beforehand. I like to start with AirNav, and then Google the airport to see if they have their own website. With the latter, they often will publish specific approach/departure procedures which are in place typically for terrain issues and noise abatement.

I always make a cheat sheet with all the particulars, including TPA and reporting points near the airport, and sketch the runway configuration and traffic pattern direction(s). I can pull up all this info on my EFIS or backup iFly GPS unit, but it's so nice to have everything right there on my kneeboard.

Then, I look at each airport carefully on Google Earth...studying the surrounding terrain makes the airport easier to spot, and zooming in on the airport itself helps me locate where the transient parking spots are. If I can't tell this from Google Earth, I'll call the airport and ask.

Last, I like to tune into the CTAF as early as possible to get a mental picture of who's doing what, the runway in use, etc. If it seems to be too much of a beehive, it never hurts to circle 8-10 miles out until the traffic dies down a little.

Pilots enter the pattern in all sorts of crazy ways. Just keep communicating your position, scan and keep your head on the proverbial swivel!!
 
I like to do a lot of chair flying, and envision different entries to the pattern for runways in both directions. I do tend to look at lots of wind forecasts to get an idea of the runway that will most likely be in use.

Vance makes some great points, especially the one about researching the airport carefully beforehand. I like to start with AirNav, and then Google the airport to see if they have their own website. With the latter, they often will publish specific approach/departure procedures which are in place typically for terrain issues and noise abatement.

I always make a cheat sheet with all the particulars, including TPA and reporting points near the airport, and sketch the runway configuration and traffic pattern direction(s). I can pull up all this info on my EFIS or backup iFly GPS unit, but it's so nice to have everything right there on my kneeboard.

Then, I look at each airport carefully on Google Earth...studying the surrounding terrain makes the airport easier to spot, and zooming in on the airport itself helps me locate where the transient parking spots are. If I can't tell this from Google Earth, I'll call the airport and ask.

Last, I like to tune into the CTAF as early as possible to get a mental picture of who's doing what, the runway in use, etc. If it seems to be too much of a beehive, it never hurts to circle 8-10 miles out until the traffic dies down a little.

Pilots enter the pattern in all sorts of crazy ways. Just keep communicating your position, scan and keep your head on the proverbial swivel!!

Yes, at my level, I would be very compelled to research the airport, all of that. But I can also see these guys decided to just go, and they knew the TPA, if I understood I think at first they saw a different airport nearby and quickly realized it wasn't there, and saw the dest then.

At first, and this is my inexperience, it seemed like a few of the other ctaf calls were terse, not identifying themselves really, but I think this is common. "Cub" at least did the plane type. The first guy was just "I'm taking off" but radio comm isn't required even so, guess all info is better help than none.

I liked that they first still kind of wanted to go for 36, but the pilot just suddenly made up his mind to fly over and join the rest even as they both talked about still making 36.

Where was the helicopter in this, and do they have different patterns that coincide with fixed wing?
The heli pilot made it clear he had others in sight, was he landing on grass west of the RWY?

By the way, thanks both of you, very solid and you really answered my questions.

On the QNH, I was mainly wondering because at my airport the QNH nearest is still pretty far away, if a pilot on the ground had set to elevation and just read off the kollsman window I think it would be more accurate.
 
Where was the helicopter in this, and do they have different patterns that coincide with fixed wing?
The heli pilot made it clear he had others in sight, was he landing on grass west of the RWY?

On the QNH, I was mainly wondering because at my airport the QNH nearest is still pretty far away, if a pilot on the ground had set to elevation and just read off the kollsman window I think it would be more accurate.

The helicopter was avoiding the flow of fixed wing traffic by flying a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern runway.

ATIS at the nearby field would have the altimeter setting to put in the Kollsman window for mean sea level. Our chart has the altitude in relation to mean sea level (MSL) in case we forgot and also has the pattern direction if it is right hand traffic (RP). We don't use QNH at all. The chart also shows the common traffic advisory frequency and the weather frequency if there is one. Our chart also shows the height of nearby object like towers in both MSL and above ground level (AGL).

You can go here for a sample of a chart with different airspace. LPC and IZA are nontowered.

http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=34.666&lon=-120.468&zoom=10
 
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I sometimes sit at a busy non towered airport with my clients to help them understand how to paint a picture with the radio calls and how important each part of the call is.
I will ask them to find a particular aircraft based on the information the pilot provided.
Some people don't use the CTAF at all at non towered airports.
 
Great answers. I'll try to add, not repeat.
As they nearer the airport and announce intentions, 7 miles out or so, they get a comm from a plane behind them following them "about 3 miles behind". 1: first question, is this assumed statute miles or NM in the US?
:D You are bound to get different answers on this one. In theory, it's going to be nautical since they are using a sectional scaled that way or the readout from a GPS set for nautical. If they are just eyeballing and guesstimating "about," it really doesn't matter that much. They are just telling others "about" where to look fir them. In many places, those with local knowledge may use landmarks like, "over the quarry."

I looked at Crankand and didn't see a preferred RWY if just cross or no wind.

They still are planning on 36, decide to circle though to give time to the plane taking off?
Most nontowered fields in the US do not have a preferred runway. Some due due to terrain or runway slope, but even then it's pilots choice. Pilots choose runways based on various factors, from winds to proximity to parking.

Lastly, I looked at an AD where they listed glide paths each runway. Think 18 was 14:1 and 36 was 10:1 because of trees at the ends. I'm not sure how I'd figure is out on the fly, my glide ratio.
Still in the "about" guestimate arena for me. I'm expecting to need a steeper glidepath because of the trees and field length. I don't calculate a glidepath. I know my short field speed and configuration and two basics. I know a "normal" 3 degree glidepath is about 5 times groundspeed. A "normal steep" glidepath is 4.5 degrees which comes out to about 7 times groundspeed. That gets me in a general ballpark. Then, the rule of thumb is, if you can see the runway numbers past the trees, you will clear them.
 
Great answers. I'll try to add, not repeat.

:D You are bound to get different answers on this one. In theory, it's going to be nautical since they are using a sectional scaled that way or the readout from a GPS set for nautical. If they are just eyeballing and guesstimating "about," it really doesn't matter that much. They are just telling others "about" where to look fir them. In many places, those with local knowledge may use landmarks like, "over the quarry."


Most nontowered fields in the US do not have a preferred runway. Some due due to terrain or runway slope, but even then it's pilots choice. Pilots choose runways based on various factors, from winds to proximity to parking.


Still in the "about" guestimate arena for me. I'm expecting to need a steeper glidepath because of the trees and field length. I don't calculate a glidepath. I know my short field speed and configuration and two basics. I know a "normal" 3 degree glidepath is about 5 times groundspeed. A "normal steep" glidepath is 4.5 degrees which comes out to about 7 times groundspeed. That gets me in a general ballpark. Then, the rule of thumb is, if you can see the runway numbers past the trees, you will clear them.

Great answers, and from you as well! Thanks.

We students have to learn when to expect and need precise, and when it's good enough for the need. Like NM vs. Statute good and close enough to use as you point out.

Also the glide path. That comes with time...but just tells you need more steep on one RWY over the other.

The video, and all your answers have filled in some gaps for me, and helps me a lot. Hope other students like me get something out of it.

By the way, to Vance, that's also a great idea. I try liveATC but without being able to verify anything by sight. But when I get back home will spend some time in the clubhouse by the radio on days I think will be busy, or after a flight.

Thanks all!!
 
Then, I look at each airport carefully on Google Earth...studying the surrounding terrain makes the airport easier to spot, and zooming in on the airport itself helps me locate where the transient parking spots are. If I can't tell this from Google Earth, I'll call the airport and ask.

Love Google Earth! Very handy for seeing the airport layout, where in relation to a town the airport is, what's off the ends of the runway in case of engine failure, etc. Excellent resource for flight planning. Even good for your local airports
 
Kinda got a chuckle when I first clicked that link with the two Waldo looking guys dressed the same, complete with the same glasses and necklace, but I was impressed with when the guy used the flap/faux spoiler trick on landing.
 
If I am in the pattern and someone announces and I think he is a possible "factor" and I don't see him, I will climb (or descend, but since I am high wing its usually a climb) so I have vertical seperation.

If the pattern is crowded, I will usually come in right behind someone because there is almost always no one there (then extend or slow down to get seperation).

Personally I dont mind "Im taking off" "Yellow cub", "zero eight", "with you" and so forth. If they say it clear and I can figure out what they mean, good enough for me.
 
This is the kind of video I like to find. I feel a little too uncertain of the jockeying and adjustments made at non towered airports when busy. Less formality can be a little daunting for a new student. I fly out of a non towered by so far hasn't been busy. These two twin bros are flying into a pancake breakfast (and are late to it, so folks are beginning to leave) at Cranland (28M) airport which has RWY 18-36. The right seat brother seems to be less gabby :) but I lik gabby in videos to hear what he thought process is like.

They are kinda starting out by playing it by ear it is seems me. None of what I write here is critique, just observation. They plan on joining downwind(y) for RWY 36. Not sure I got all the points but this brought up lot of thoughts.

As they nearer the airport and announce intentions, 7 miles out or so, they get a comm from a plane behind them following them "about 3 miles behind". 1: first question, is this assumed statute miles or NM in the US?

I like that th bros are easygoing, but still focused I think on the right points.
So they at some point broadcast again, nearer, intentions to 36, and another pilot just says he is back taxi to taking off on 18. They ask for wind, and are told it is a direct crosswind.
I looked at Crankand and didn't see a preferred RWY if just cross or no wind.

They still are planning on 36, decide to circle though to give time to the plane taking off?
But then another is queued up, wanting also to and they see apparently a few more in queue, so even still thinking they can make 36 the pilot decides to instead cross midfield, join LH for RWY 18 to go with the flow. He has now to tell everyone of course, but specifically the plane that was following them of his plan change.

Here I am a little uncertain, sounds like another plane announces he is on hold for 18 and the bros wonder why, I'm guessing because he still would have time to take then as they call base yet another flight coming in from the west, but has them in sight, and somewhere in here is a helicopter but I'm not sure where that fits in.

Anyway, this is just probably a normal Sunday for the experiment pilots, for me it would be a lot of nerves and all until I get used to it. Do I have the main points of what happened? Miss anything importantly? I watched it twice and ther seemed also to be a strange TPA (like 842 or something.)

Also, when they ask for wind, does one ever do a call out also asking for QNH from common freq? It might be important if this were a strange pattern alt, but how is it for experienced pilots, do you eyeball normal patter height without altimeter?

Lastly, I looked at an AD where they listed glide paths each runway. Think 18 was 14:1 and 36 was 10:1 because of trees at the ends. I'm not sure how I'd figure is out on the fly, my glide ratio.

Anyway, sharing for any comments, from anyone and for fellow low time students like me that want to see how you have to adjust plans and be flexible. I am really glad I saw this.



Anyone notice he dumped the flaps in the flare? Before the wheels touch. I wonder why he'd do that. I've heard of dumping flaps on the roll to get better breaking. I guess he was just leading it. Wouldn't it be better to leave them in for aerodynamic breaking before touchdown.
 
If there is a lot of gusty wind, dumping flaps puts you more positively on the runway. (those gusts can put you back up in the air). I wouldnt recommend it though (I have done it). Also , if you are in a spot landing contest, it can put you on the spot. Flare, then dump them (thats when I have used it)
 
Anyone notice he dumped the flaps in the flare? Before the wheels touch. I wonder why he'd do that. I've heard of dumping flaps on the roll to get better breaking. I guess he was just leading it. Wouldn't it be better to leave them in for aerodynamic breaking before touchdown.


Yeah, it's like quasi spoilers, normally its best done with manual flaps however.
 
Anyone notice he dumped the flaps in the flare? Before the wheels touch. I wonder why he'd do that. I've heard of dumping flaps on the roll to get better breaking. I guess he was just leading it. Wouldn't it be better to leave them in for aerodynamic breaking before touchdown.
Despite the title, there were definitely a few things which were not "textbook." Yes, in a 172, there would have been no need to retract the flaps on this almost 1800' runway after touchdown, let alone before.
 
Interesting topic. Be flexible and lower your expectations of structure. I’ve been driving in 2 dimensions guided by blacktop for too many decades.

I like to research my landing airport and be fully prepared, but I wonder how much of a handicap that is when it comes time to a “land now” scenario or “Plan B now that Plan A is busted”.

One of my recent flights, I was just flying around and decided to land at 2 different airports unplanned. My flight track and glide slope was probably embarrassingly sloppy...was it unsafe? Probably not, but the risk of some piloting based error was higher.

For me, I think doing more of that practice will make me a better stick & rudder pilot and reduce the odds of something worse happening when something bad is already happening (i.e., WX, mech, another plane not doing what I want it to, pax emergency, raccoon in the cockpit, etc.).
 
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