Being a target in an MOA

W

woxof

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 6, 2015
Messages
155
Display Name
woxof
Picked this up from another forum. A pilot stated that when talking to the controlling agency of an MOA that he flies through, he tells them that he can be used as a practice target and gets to see a lot of cool aircraft zooming close by.

Anybody heard of this.
 
I doubt my little 172 would provide much of a realistic target unless they were preparing for an attack by the North Korean Air Force.
 
Your "other forum" member sounds like a troll ... or someone with an interesting sense of humor ... or maybe both.
 
woxof said:
Picked this up from another forum. A pilot stated that when talking to the controlling agency of an MOA that he flies through, he tells them that he can be used as a practice target and gets to see a lot of cool aircraft zooming close by.

Anybody heard of this.
Click to expand...

I'd say if he saw cool aircraft flying by him, it has nothing to do with him telling ATC that he can be used as a "practice target."

Having worked a MOA as a controller I can tell you generally they aren't there to go out of their way to jump civilian aircraft. You will see a few cases where pilots buzzed civilian aircraft in a MOA and got reported for it buts that's the exception and not the rule. There's also some good footage of an RV-8 flying around with some A-10s in a MOA but as I said, that's not SOP.

Most of the time I had reports of pilots seeing "cool aircraft zooming close by" it had nothing to do with a MOA activation. Aircraft popping up off a VR route or own NAV to the initial can sometimes give a good view of a fighter.
 
I can't imagine this being anything close to useful training. Perhaps once in a blue moon for the Guard folks who do ADIZ/continental defense stuff, but for most everyone else, it would just be a waste of time and if taken close enough, probably scary for everyone involved.
 
Last edited:
It would be contrary to the military's rules to do it intentionally, but it's entirely possible that they might fly past you unintentionally without realizing you were there in that active MOA -- "see and be seen" is hardly perfect at 500 knots, and not all military aircraft have air-to-air radars.
 
Can't say I was a target, but one time, when passing through an MOA in upstate New York I was told that there were A-10's in the area but they are usually too low to show up on radar. If one popped up, they would let me know. A little while later they called with this - (read it in your fastest ATC voice)
"Cessna123, you have traffic at your 3 o'clock.. um 9 o'clock, never mind."
 
woxof said:
...he tells them that he can be used as a practice target and gets to see a lot of cool aircraft zooming close by.
Click to expand...

Doubt it. I have heard of CAP planes and C-21s doing practice air intercepts, but that's about it.
 
A long long time ago back in the era of the Phantoms. There I was in my Taylorcraft wobbling along on a late fall afternoon. Trees were a riot of color. Watery sunshine. Temp about 50 degrees. When a glint of light off polished metal caught my eye and looked to the right to see two F4's on a 45 degree intercept to my heading. Then suddenly they both flipped a wing up and came bore sighted at me passing one ahead and one behind. They then jinked hard to the right and then hard to the left to resume their previous heading. Both gave me a wing rock and I rocked back. Within a minute they were gone out of sight.
I was officially shot down. One of my better memories from my long ago youth.
 
Early in my flying career, I was somewhere over SC in my C150 when a pair of military jets may have been usiing me for practice - one went over, one under and then they did a "break".

Don't remember if it was in an MOA or not, but thinking that it wasn't.

I was startled, but thought it was pretty cool overall.
 
A few years ago I was out hunting with a friend within an MOA on the west side of the Alaska Range. While scouting around for a spot to make camp we happened to see a couple of F-15s flying together. My buddy told me to keep an eye out after they made a fly by and broke off. And sure enough, they took a couple of more passes at us from different directions and altitudes. Nothing alarming but we were careful of their wakes. I'm used to operating near military traffic that's maneuvering to land at Elmendorf so I wasn't too concerned. The next morning we were awakened early by two F-15s flying over as they went supersonic. That makes a racket you can't sleep through in a mountain valley. Very cool. We figured they were asking us to come out and play but in truth they were just saying good morning and wished they were bopping around that country in Cubs looking for animals to hunt. That's the usual comment when I talk to fighter pilots on the ground.
 
I have seen a few different planes while transiting an MOA. The best was a pair of F15 s. They know your their and occasionally bloke to give you a show. At one time had a controller tell me a jet would be passing under me from left to right. Loved it.
 
I've been used as a target but I was in a boat. Once I realized what they were doing I gave them a good chase. I think they enjoyed it as much as I did. A couple of hard 180s, sharp turns here and there and a getaway attempt.
 
Not in an MOA but I swear one time one of the reserve helicopters was about 3-5 miles off in a hover and it's nose was following me. Always figured they were using me to test some equipment.
 
I can tell yon flat out: Back in the 1970's (Air Force)we used to hunt everything in the sky for practice.
 
Shepherd said:
I can tell yon flat out: Back in the 1970's (Air Force)we used to hunt everything in the sky for practice.
Click to expand...

Different Air Force nowadays. That type of stuff wouldn't fly(pun intended).
 
"N1234, F-18s acknowledge your offer to serve as target - they ask if you prefer cannon or missile. Oh, and say souls on board."
 
A few years ago, when I approached Steelhead from the south, Saginaw Approach threatened to cut me loose from flight following unless I changed course. They refused to give me radar services through the hot MOA. I've had other pilots tell me that sounds unusual, but I really don't know. Crossing the Adirondacks I've only ever gone IFR, and of course it's normal to be given a revised clearance (or radar vectors around it) if a SUA goes hot.
 
azure said:
A few years ago, when I approached Steelhead from the south, Saginaw Approach threatened to cut me loose from flight following unless I changed course. They refused to give me radar services through the hot MOA. I've had other pilots tell me that sounds unusual, but I really don't know.
Click to expand...
It's not unusual, it's what they are supposed to do, and it's what's happened to me several times.
 
We weren't a target but while on flight following in the Norfolk area, we got the 'warning' from ATC for the two Jets flying into Oceans NAS: 'Top Gun 1 and 2, traffic at your 12 o'clock at 8,500' northbound'. The traffic was us and gave us just enough time to look for them and see them passing below us... :D Very cool!
 
azure said:
A few years ago, when I approached Steelhead from the south, Saginaw Approach threatened to cut me loose from flight following unless I changed course. They refused to give me radar services through the hot MOA. I've had other pilots tell me that sounds unusual, but I really don't know. Crossing the Adirondacks I've only ever gone IFR, and of course it's normal to be given a revised clearance (or radar vectors around it) if a SUA goes hot.
Click to expand...

Well you should call when VFR prior to entry for traffic advisories (3-4-5). We never denied service to VFR in our MOAs. We had one controller who worked the MOA exclusively for containment and traffic advisories and approach worked the IFRs.

Having said that, are there those who won't work you through a MOA? Yep, they don't want the responsibility. I've been terminated going through the Bulldog (GA) MOAs before and given a freq to call on the other side.

Last week I flew right through the Columbus (MS) MOAs and Memphis worked me on FF both ways. It was funny, I was at 10,500 on the way out. Memphis informed me of the hot MOA, I acknowledged. Few minutes later, a guy called at 7,500 wanting to climb to 9,500. They informed him an active MOA was right above him at 8,000 ft. It must have scared him because he replied "OK, we'll stay at 7,500." On the way back days later I went right through at 9,500 ft. Memphis once again informed me of activity in the MOA (CS Gundog). I acknowledged again and Memphis called traffic on me. A few minutes later I requested 7,500 for VMC. Memphis came back and said "you're fine if you wanna stay at 9,500, they said they'll work above ya." I really couldn't though because of cloud tops.
 
It's not an issue in my local MOA, as I don't think they have C5's practicing air to air combat.
 
Don't have any cool fighter stories, but was shadowed by a C-130 with all sorts of interesting humps on it in a local MOA once. Formed up about a quarter mile to our right and just hung out there for a while. Came in a bit closer after he'd been there for a while. Always wondered if they got nice RF or optical shots of us, or both.

Ghostly bastard. One minute, nothing there, next minute he's out there in perfect formation quite a ways off. No wing wag, nothing but a slow bank away when he was done doing whatever he was doing.

I looked for signs it that it was a Spectre, a favorite of mine, but no large caliber howitzer pointed my direction. Heh.

I also decided that he probably wouldn't appreciate me making a hard turn into him, but I was tempted. Haha. Problem was, I'd immediately be sucked and that would make the whole fun of turning into him more like turning behind him. Which is probably why he parked out there at fingertip a ways out. Knew I couldn't do anything stupid and get to him.
 
Stingray Don said:
I doubt my little 172 would provide much of a realistic target unless they were preparing for an attack by the North Korean Air Force.
Click to expand...

Or when AOPA orders a revolt of GA and organizes the dreaded 172 formation attack of Washington D.C.

(I'm all for this, BTW!)
 
As 35 said, we guard guys need to practice low slow intercepts. We usually decline the offer (unless it's someone you know) because you never know what someone's going to do when they see a jet that is actually 500' away. We get "close calls" reported often in MOAs at my previous bases. Many times we are several thousand feet away but people still freak out and we get in trouble for doing nothing wrong.

Sometimes it's cool though when you know someone.
c275e998a591bdbaadacdfc23d8978c8.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Nice pic.

Are the -15's climbing or is that slow flight AOA?
 
One of Civil Air Patrol's uses is to go play target for the Air Force so they don't need to use your 172. CAP does intercept practice and I think they do target towing too, although I was never involved with that directly.
 
EvilEagle said:
Sometimes it's cool though when you know someone.
c275e998a591bdbaadacdfc23d8978c8.jpg
Click to expand...

At least this was a Bo.
Imagine the AOA to intercept a C150. :D

Recipe: how to make an F-15 fall out of the sky
Ingredients:
- 1x C150
- 1x reduction in power
- 1x first notch of flaps
- 1x second notch of flaps
- 1x last notch of flaps
- 1x IAS of 40kt
- 100x take picture of fighter jet tumbling from the sky :D

P.S.: Got this secret recipe from Martha. She says it is guaranteed to work. :lol:
 
Several years ago while driving near the large annentae array west of Socorro NM, I heard a fighter jet pass overhead a couple of times. I'm looked up and saw an F-16 climbing steeply and rolled over and dived back down the road and passed over again about 1000 feet up. I stopped the car and got out and watched as he made another pass. On the last one I waved both arms and as he climbed away he did a couple of snap rolls and came back by rocking his wings. I figured he was practicing on my moving vehicle. A fun time by all.
 
MD11Pilot said:
Several years ago while driving near the large annentae array west of Socorro NM, I heard a fighter jet pass overhead a couple of times. I'm looked up and saw an F-16 climbing steeply and rolled over and dived back down the road and passed over again about 1000 feet up. I stopped the car and got out and watched as he made another pass. On the last one I waved both arms and as he climbed away he did a couple of snap rolls and came back by rocking his wings. I figured he was practicing on my moving vehicle. A fun time by all.
Click to expand...

Tangentially related (and I know it sounds like an urban legend, but was told to me by my father, a flight-test engineer for North American Aviation, and who was present):
In ~1960, the Hound Dog missile was being modified for low-level, terrain-following flight. My father and his team were at White Sands for the testing. They had set up the test, and the MPs had shut down roads that crossed the test range. Some high-ranking officer (Colonel or General, IIRC) blew past the MP, intent on getting through before the test launch. From what I was told, he was quite humbled (and probably soiled) by having the bird cross his path at Mach 2, about 300 feet off the deck.
 
BigBadLou said:
At least this was a Bo.

Imagine the AOA to intercept a C150. :D



Recipe: how to make an F-15 fall out of the sky...
Click to expand...


I always laugh when people say this. "Yeah well I'll just slow down, then what will you do?" We don't slow down enough to fly next to aircraft going less than 250kias. Could we? Sure, but then we'd be putting ourselves in a bad situation.

If you are intercepted, there are two jets there. One you see that flies by you and another that's about 5 miles back with a radar lock directing traffic. We take turns doing racetrack patterns around slow movers. If you fly slower it actually makes it easier.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
petrolero said:
One of Civil Air Patrol's uses is to go play target for the Air Force so they don't need to use your 172. CAP does intercept practice and I think they do target towing too, although I was never involved with that directly.
Click to expand...


That is what we prefer (historically). FWIU, CAP has upped their restrictions almost as much as they've cut their flying hours. It's difficult to get them on board for training. I've done it a few times but the headache of dealing with the added overhead is not worth it for the added training.

I can't imagine them towing targets in something that slow, it's hard enough to gun the banner towed by a Lear going 210...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
EvilEagle said:
If you are intercepted, there are two jets there. One you see that flies by you and another that's about 5 miles back with a radar lock directing traffic. We take turns doing racetrack patterns around slow movers. If you fly slower it actually makes it easier.
Click to expand...
Nothing new there -- the A-7's provided cover for the rescue helos that way in Viet Nam 40 years ago.
 
There were a pair of F16s fly past on the deck. Scared the jeepers outta the horses.
Was cool to watch. And they made several passes. They were low enough that I could see captians bars on the pilot of one of them. And no MOA involved.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top