Becoming current vis 61.57...

 
Someone arguing against solo = PIC time. Really? Must be a slow day. The Senate really needs to get on that vacant SCOTUS seat. I'd hate for the court to tie 4 to 4 when this question comes before them. :rolleyes:
 
Witmo said:
Someone arguing against solo = PIC time. Really? Must be a slow day. The Senate really needs to get on that vacant SCOTUS seat. I'd hate for the court to tie 4 to 4 when this question comes before them. :rolleyes:
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Nobody here arguing against it.

Pointing out useless logging and reg changes, is all.

The solo/PIC one is just the perfect example.

Plenty of others, but if you use those as examples, someone will argue their merits. That one really doesn't have any.

Even Mari had to go dig those other examples up to try to avoid saying anything bad about the bureaucracy that creates this type of thing.

Logbooks are a particularly fun way to expose the legal goofiness, considering they're mostly arbitrary stuff anyway.

The new thread on the "mix and match" interpretation of logging of "solo" vs "supervised solo" is also quite entertaining.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Several people. This whole thread started as the result of a discussion on the AOPA Facebook page. It was pretty impressive.
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Do you have a link to that page? A search turns up several Facebook pages with "AOPA" in the name, some of them requiring registration, and I can't tell which one has the discussion (which I'd like to read, glutton for punishment that I am ;)).
 
MAKG1 said:
No biggie. To answer your question, yes it's perfectly legal to log PIC in any single engine land airplane (assuming an ASEL rating) for which you are sole manipulator, regardless of whether or not you can act as PIC.
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Unless it requires a type rating that you don't have.
 
Palmpilot said:
Do you have a link to that page? A search turns up several Facebook pages with "AOPA" in the name, some of them requiring registration, and I can't tell which one has the discussion (which I'd like to read, glutton for punishment that I am ;)).
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AOPA Members, you'll have to be accepted into the fold.

Then a quick search of the words "night current" should give you hours of reading..
 
Kritchlow said:
This makes my head spin. I just log PIC when I am actually PIC.
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If you're acting as pilot in command of aircraft whose type certificate requires more than one pilot, then it's perfectly legal under 61.51(e)(1)(iii) for you to log that time regardless of whether you're the sole manipulator of the controls.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
...
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted​

Apparently I have not logged the Airbus PIC that I am entitled to log. So be it. My conscious is clear.
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I don't think conscience is at issue anyway. Under the wording of 61.51(a), the only time that you "must" log is the time that you use to meet the Part 61 requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review, or time required to meet the Part 61 recent flight experience requirements. So, if you leave out PIC time that FAA regulations entitle you to, you haven't violated anything.

a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
​
 
Palmpilot said:
If you're acting as pilot in command of aircraft whose type certificate requires more than one pilot, then it's perfectly legal under 61.51(e)(1)(iii) for you to log that time regardless of whether you're the sole manipulator of the controls.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
...
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted​


I don't think conscience is at issue anyway. Under the wording of 61.51(a), the only time that you "must" log is the time that you use to meet the Part 61 requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review, or time required to meet the Part 61 recent flight experience requirements. So, if you leave out PIC time that FAA regulations entitle you to, you haven't violated anything.

a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
​
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I'm a bit confused... As I said, I only log pic time when I am actually pic. Haven't flown a single pilot airplane in almost 20 years. I'm pretty sure I'm covered.
The conscience issue is me being able to tell an airline I have X amount of pic, and it's actually pic. Say what you want, but airlines DO NOT want the sole manipulator interpretation. Right or wrong, they will black ball you.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm a bit confused... As I said, I only log pic time when I am actually pic. Haven't flown a single pilot airplane in almost 20 years. I'm pretty sure I'm covered.
The conscience issue is me being able to tell an airline I have X amount of pic, and it's actually pic. Say what you want, but airlines DO NOT want the sole manipulator interpretation. Right or wrong, they will black ball you.
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I misunderstood what you were referring to when you said your conscience was clear. Some posts by others were referring to 61.51 telling us what "must" be logged. I thought you were saying that you weren't going to lose sleep over not complying with the "sole manipulator of the controls" portion, so I was discussing the fact that the way you're doing it does not actually violate 61.51.

I am aware of how the airlines want PIC time to be logged, thanks to previous posts from you and others.

Sorry for sticking my foot in it.
 
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Kritchlow said:
I'm a bit confused... As I said, I only log pic time when I am actually pic. Haven't flown a single pilot airplane in almost 20 years. I'm pretty sure I'm covered.
The conscience issue is me being able to tell an airline I have X amount of pic, and it's actually pic. Say what you want, but airlines DO NOT want the sole manipulator interpretation. Right or wrong, they will black ball you.
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That's simple to deal with. When filling out an application for an accounting firm one does not list working the register at McDonalds as "financial experience." When applying for a job with an airline, one looks and read the application for what the employer wants for "PIC" time and filters his or her data accordingly. One of the reasons many pilots heading for careers maintain a separate column (or can query their eLogs) for "Part 1 PIC."

OTOH, if you are saying the airlines don't like pilots who follow the FAR, that's a distinctly different issue.
 
So much 61.51 talk, can't your boys read a title? ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm a bit confused... As I said, I only log pic time when I am actually pic. Haven't flown a single pilot airplane in almost 20 years. I'm pretty sure I'm covered.
The conscience issue is me being able to tell an airline I have X amount of pic, and it's actually pic. Say what you want, but airlines DO NOT want the sole manipulator interpretation. Right or wrong, they will black ball you.
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Any airline human resources people out there to refute this? Any lawyers want to comment on black balling job applicants for properly stating PIC time? What conscience issue would there be when your logbook entries meet the legal definition of the regulations under which it was recorded? I really doubt an airline would care whether any PIC time that is recognized as PIC time by the FAA was sole manipulator time or other as long as it met the legal FAA definition. Conscience comes into play when someone tries to foist Parker Pen time as legitimate, not time logged properly. You're entitled to your opinion but I think its a BS opinion.
 
Witmo said:
Any airline human resources people out there to refute this? Any lawyers want to comment on black balling job applicants for properly stating PIC time? What conscience issue would there be when your logbook entries meet the legal definition of the regulations under which it was recorded? I really doubt an airline would care whether any PIC time that is recognized as PIC time by the FAA was sole manipulator time or other as long as it met the legal FAA definition. Conscience comes into play when someone tries to foist Parker Pen time as legitimate, not time logged properly. You're entitled to your opinion but I think its a BS opinion.
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It's more putting the correct PIC time on the application than it is maintaining your logbook. If you have the patience to go though 15,000 hours of logbook and sort it out for an application, so be it. I would just rather log pic as "actually the pic". Ymmv.

And yes, I personally know people who who have been blackballed for this.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's simple to deal with. When filling out an application for an accounting firm one does not list working the register at McDonalds as "financial experience." When applying for a job with an airline, one looks and read the application for what the employer wants for "PIC" time and filters his or her data accordingly. One of the reasons many pilots heading for careers maintain a separate column (or can query their eLogs) for "Part 1 PIC."

OTOH, if you are saying the airlines don't like pilots who follow the FAR, that's a distinctly different issue.
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A seperate column s a great idea... That said, by the time you are ready for the major airlines it's not, IMO, worth maintaining the "legal log pic" column.
 
Kritchlow said:
A seperate column s a great idea... That said, by the time you are ready for the major airlines it's not, IMO, worth maintaining the "legal log pic" column.
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Sure. If you've already accumulated all the certificates and ratings you need or have the FAA time for them already logged, there's probably no need to log Part 61 PIC.

I can't think offhand of a currency requirement for Part 61 PIC, although I guess technically, "each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged..." in 61.51 includes Part 61 PIC time. I'd be more concerned with purposely avoiding taking an extra second to enter it when logging a flight anyway being considered a little OCD :D

The other interesting one is, the airlines also discount safety pilot PIC which =is= "real" PIC time.
 
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