Beating the Airlines

[EvilEagle]

I know I'm an airline pilot.... BUT ....

C'mon! There are times when GA is way better and times when commercial is the way to go. I'd argue that it’s dependent on a lot of factors; many that aren’t known till the day of departure. We airplane owners do a fair bit of justifying our ownership by any means necessary but some claims are outlandish.

I’m going to a conference in FL next week. It’s about 2000 miles from my airport to the local GA at the destination. Even at the extreme it’d be two 6 hour legs each way in the Bonanza. Call it 13gph of fuel at $5.50/gal is $1,716 just in gas for the trip. On those long trips (esp. in Feb in a piston) there’s a better than average chance that the plan will change many times enroute and could add several days on the trip. Crossing the front range of the Rockies….. what if some mx item comes up and I’m in the middle of Oklahoma…. those are killer long days to get there and turn around to go home 3 days later….

Or… for around $500 round trip I can fly on several different airlines, sleep enroute, not worry about the weather or fuel stops have a very high chance of getting there within an hour or two of when I’m scheduled, know that my airplane is safely tucked in my hangar, etc. That’s a no-brainer for me, even though I have to deal with the idiots at TSA, airport food, “traveling public”, etc.

Now if I was going to the middle of Oregon, Nevada or Utah the Bonanza wins (unless it’s snowing, freezing fog, terrible winds, etc, etc)

I’m all for using the airplanes we have, I am also a realist. The airline is a tool, as is a GA airplane. They each have their uses. You can probably use a flat head screwdriver and get a Phillips head screw in something but wouldn’t it be easier to just use a Phillips?

 

[Jim K]

I’m all for using the airplanes we have, I am also a realist. The airline is a tool, as is a GA airplane. They each have their uses. You can probably use a flat head screwdriver and get a Phillips head screw in something but wouldn’t it be easier to just use a Phillips?

I think a better analogy would be a manual screwdriver vs an impact driver. The driver always twists the screw in faster, but sometimes it's quicker to do it by hand rather than find a battery and a bit. Occasionally the impact is too powerful and the screwdriver is a better choice. Sometimes you just really enjoy twisting the screw in by hand even though the impact is obviously a better choice. That makes you a weirdo....and here we all are

 

[schmookeeg]

I think being able to sleep in a modern airliner's economy class seat is a superpower unto itself. Can you also sleep on rocks? on beds of nails? in Lurquilla, typical walmart shopper's armpit?

 

[Zeldman]

It’s about the journey, not the destination

Sometimes, though, it's about the mosquitoes...

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I know I'm an airline pilot.... BUT ....

C'mon! There are times when GA is way better and times when commercial is the way to go. I'd argue that it’s dependent on a lot of factors; many that aren’t known till the day of departure. We airplane owners do a fair bit of justifying our ownership by any means necessary but some claims are outlandish.

I’m going to a conference in FL next week. It’s about 2000 miles from my airport to the local GA at the destination. Even at the extreme it’d be two 6 hour legs each way in the Bonanza. Call it 13gph of fuel at $5.50/gal is $1,716 just in gas for the trip. On those long trips (esp. in Feb in a piston) there’s a better than average chance that the plan will change many times enroute and could add several days on the trip. Crossing the front range of the Rockies….. what if some mx item comes up and I’m in the middle of Oklahoma…. those are killer long days to get there and turn around to go home 3 days later….

Or… for around $500 round trip I can fly on several different airlines, sleep enroute, not worry about the weather or fuel stops have a very high chance of getting there within an hour or two of when I’m scheduled, know that my airplane is safely tucked in my hangar, etc. That’s a no-brainer for me, even though I have to deal with the idiots at TSA, airport food, “traveling public”, etc.

Now if I was going to the middle of Oregon, Nevada or Utah the Bonanza wins (unless it’s snowing, freezing fog, terrible winds, etc, etc)

I’m all for using the airplanes we have, I am also a realist. The airline is a tool, as is a GA airplane. They each have their uses. You can probably use a flat head screwdriver and get a Phillips head screw in something but wouldn’t it be easier to just use a Phillips?

I can't get $500 round-trip to anywhere. These days it's $800 minimum. And not being at a major hub means 6am flights. And I'm tired of 300+ lb seat companions that spill into my space.

That said, as of tomorrow I will already have enough flight legs to hit silver on United and it's barely February.. Just need more PQP.

 

[EvilEagle]

I think being able to sleep in a modern airliner's economy class seat is a superpower unto itself. Can you also sleep on rocks? on beds of nails? in Lurquilla, typical walmart shopper's armpit?

Haha, I haven’t tried all of those but after 21 years in the military, I can basically sleep anywhere.

It’s just a matter of perspective, an airline seat is amazingly comfortable when compared to 9 hours in a cargo strap seat of a freezing cold bouncing C-130. And a hell of a lot quieter!

 

[EvilEagle]

I can't get $500 round-trip to anywhere. These days it's $800 minimum. And not being at a major hub means 6am flights. And I'm tired of 300+ lb seat companions that spill into my space.

That said, as of tomorrow I will already have enough flight legs to hit silver on United and it's barely February.. Just need more PQP.

I was a little surprised that the tickets were $500 ish. I was expecting around $800 or so.

i guess Boise is lucky, we have options all day to get out. There’s a 1345L departure direct to Atl that meets up nice with most east coast travel.

 

[iamtheari]

Actually buying a cheap airframe and shoveling money into it would be beneficial with the tax situation in IL. Buy one with run out engines and no avionics for next to nothing, build it up over time, get your training and insurance hours done, then sell the Lance and never be without a nice airplane....

If you'll excuse me, I'm off to shop for Senecas

[sort by...lowest price...]

For bonus points, do your training while the engines are still run-out. Simulated engine failures are hard on engines. Doing them before you overhaul the engines will increase your chance of all real failures happening with an MEI on board.

You can probably use a flat head screwdriver and get a Phillips head screw in something but wouldn’t it be easier to just use a Phillips?

Hammer. Always use a hammer.

 

[Pinecone]

I think being able to sleep in a modern airliner's economy class seat is a superpower unto itself. Can you also sleep on rocks? on beds of nails? in Lurquilla, typical walmart shopper's armpit?

I have done a few airline trips (Million Miler on one airline, just under 2 Million Miler on another, and about 1/2 million on another), and I can fall asleep while they are still boarding.

 

[Pinecone]

I can't get $500 round-trip to anywhere. These days it's $800 minimum. And not being at a major hub means 6am flights. And I'm tired of 300+ lb seat companions that spill into my space.

That said, as of tomorrow I will already have enough flight legs to hit silver on United and it's barely February.. Just need more PQP.

I just looked at booking flights for a cruise I am taking.

$298 round trip on a legacy carrier. And not the low frills economy. Heck for $858 I can do the trip in First Class.

 

[schmookeeg]

I wonder if typical planning window feeds into this somehow. I seldom am able to book over a week in advance, and frequently it's same/next day. I suffer the "I can't get anywhere for $500" problem too. Those are invariably the flights I compare with GA and end up shocked that GA wins again (at least in variable expense )

 

[StraightnLevel]

I know I'm an airline pilot.... BUT ....

C'mon! There are times when GA is way better and times when commercial is the way to go.

[...]

Or… for around $500 round trip I can fly on several different airlines, sleep enroute,

Well, last Friday I ended up spending an extra 8 hours at CLT due to a delayed/missed connection. Granted, I couldn't have gotten from Heathrow to MKE GA, but.... Similarly, Monday night I ended up with a significant flight delay. I'm finding that it is happening more and more regularly, probably every other trip, with a missed connection every 3rd or 4th. The only way to prevent it is to schedule long layovers....and that means spending even more un-productive time in airports.

Also, where are you finding $500 flights? One of my regular routes is MKE-HOU/IAH. There are exactly zero direct commercial routes, and the prices just keep going up. When it takes 8+ hours because it's always two flights connecting in places that aren't even close to the direct path, it starts to wear on a traveler's patience. Even if a Bo takes 5-6 hours with a re-fuel stop, it is still less time spent with more control over the schedule.

I guess that part of my problem with commercial air travel is that I've done too much - 1M+ with Delta, and some more on American and others. I can't fault Delta's crews and their efforts to maintain service, but the whole process is incredibly inefficient and time-consuming.

 

[Skyrys62]

(unless it’s snowing, freezing fog, terrible winds, etc, etc)

That, along with inflexible times and dates cancel out most of our possible GA trips and force us to the airlines. Even though they aren't guaranteed to be on time.
I still love when we get to go GA though.

We drive an hour or two to get to the bigger hubs, depending on pricing/destination, but I don't enjoy the airline experience much, and dislike traffic even worse. We try and force ourselves to accept it as family time together and all part of the adventure. Just usually the least fun part of it lol.

 

[iamtheari]

We drive an hour or two to get to the bigger hubs,

I think distance from a commercial hub is a critical factor in the equation. Our nearest hub airport is a 10-hour drive. I know people who routinely make that drive to fly out, even in the winter when it can be more like 15 hours. I have flown GA to a reliever airport near the hub so I could fly international because the airline’s website wouldn’t even let me book a full itinerary from a nearby spoke airport to where I was going. Nearby here means a choice of 3 airports, which are 1-, 2-, and 3-hour drives away. And spoke here means all-regional-jet service.

It is also a good idea, if you absolutely must be there, to treat your commercial flight from our nearby spokes the same as you would a GA flight: subject to cancellation or multi-day delays due to weather, mechanical breakdown, or the plane simply not being available because the airline decided not to risk having a plane away from the hub when it might be needed for a more important route.

 

[EvilEagle]

[...]

Well, last Friday I ended up spending an extra 8 hours at CLT due to a delayed/missed connection. Granted, I couldn't have gotten from Heathrow to MKE GA, but.... Similarly, Monday night I ended up with a significant flight delay. I'm finding that it is happening more and more regularly, probably every other trip, with a missed connection every 3rd or 4th. The only way to prevent it is to schedule long layovers....and that means spending even more un-productive time in airports.

Also, where are you finding $500 flights? One of my regular routes is MKE-HOU/IAH. There are exactly zero direct commercial routes, and the prices just keep going up. When it takes 8+ hours because it's always two flights connecting in places that aren't even close to the direct path, it starts to wear on a traveler's patience. Even if a Bo takes 5-6 hours with a re-fuel stop, it is still less time spent with more control over the schedule.

I guess that part of my problem with commercial air travel is that I've done too much - 1M+ with Delta, and some more on American and others. I can't fault Delta's crews and their efforts to maintain service, but the whole process is incredibly inefficient and time-consuming.

I just looked on Travelocity for my trip next week, BOI-MCO and there were about 6 different options in the $500 +/- $20 range and one at $389.

The Bo would take 12 hours of flying time at cruise in a perfectly straight line to go one way. (ie not feasible) so actually doing it would likely be more like 13-13.5 each way? That’s a killer day no matter how comfortable the airplane is!

I agree there are a ton of problems with air travel, I don’t like using the airlines unless I have to. That doesn’t change the fact that sometimes - even as bad as it can be - it still beats GA.

 

[iamtheari]

I agree there are a ton of problems with air travel, I don’t like using the airlines unless I have to. That doesn’t change the fact that sometimes - even as bad as it can be - it still beats GA.

You won’t catch me saying that GA always wins. But you will often catch me saying that GA can win and encouraging people with big GA dreams to live them out.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I just looked at booking flights for a cruise I am taking.

$298 round trip on a legacy carrier. And not the low frills economy. Heck for $858 I can do the trip in First Class.

Must be nice. I live at a sleepy Charlie airport and work takes me to another sleepy Charlie. The least I've paid is $750. It is typically $850 plus. I think this last round was over $1000.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

I just looked on Travelocity for my trip next week, BOI-MCO and there were about 6 different options in the $500 +/- $20 range and one at $389.

The Bo would take 12 hours of flying time at cruise in a perfectly straight line to go one way. (ie not feasible) so actually doing it would likely be more like 13-13.5 each way? That’s a killer day no matter how comfortable the airplane is!

I agree there are a ton of problems with air travel, I don’t like using the airlines unless I have to. That doesn’t change the fact that sometimes - even as bad as it can be - it still beats GA.

Here is my calculation for my trip to Florida.

Airline
Cost per ticket (roundtrip): $750 (so total $1,500 for the two of us - not sure how much it would cost for the dog in cargo, which I would never put him into anyways, but let's say $200).
Total cost of roundtrip ticket: $1,700
Total flight time one way: 5:30 hours (including layover)
Travel time to departure airport: 2 hours
Total travel time (includes 2 hours arrival prior to departure) one way: 9 hours

Compare that to flying the Comanche:

Cost for gas (roundtrip): $1,274 (14 hours flying time, 13 gph, $8/gallon)
Total flight time one way: ~7 hours (add 30 minutes for a gas/bio break after 3.5 hours)
Travel time to departure airport: 30 minutes
Total travel time (includes 30 minutes arrival prior to departure for pre-flight) one way: 8.5 hours

So, in that example, time wise it's a wash. But, it's cheaper to fly myself, everyone on board (me, my wife and our dog) are more comfortable, customs is more pleasant, and I have more fun! The downside is, risk of delay due to WX or MX is higher.

 

[charheep]

Why are you using $8 for fuel?

 

[iamtheari]

Why are you using $8 for fuel?

Because he’s the guy on the left here…

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Why are you using $8 for fuel?

Because that's just about what I'm paying up here. $2.71 per litre at my home airport (and that's cheap, most larger airports are more like $2.80 - $3.00), which is $10.26 per gallon. But, that's Canadian so in USD, it's about $7.64 USD per gallon. I rounded up.

 

[Jim K]

Because he’s the guy on the left here…
View attachment 124936

You'll regret this day, friend!

 

[iamtheari]

You'll regret this day, friend!

I’m not your friend, pal!

 

[EvilEagle]

You won’t catch me saying that GA always wins. But you will often catch me saying that GA can win and encouraging people with big GA dreams to live them out.

I’m totally with that and encourage people to travel via GA when it makes sense or if they just want a bit of adventure.

 

[flyingron]

In the Navion which usually trues out at about 140 knots when I'm flying, the perfect example was going from suburban Virginia up to suburban Boston. I could go from my house to the airport, preflight, put my car in the hangar, fly ton OWD where the rental car would be on the ramp and drive over to Quincy or wherever in half the time it would have taken me to go to IAD, clear security, board, fly to Logan, get the rental car, make it through the big dig and out down 93.

 

[EvilEagle]

When I lived in New Orleans, flying myself almost always won. Especially after my daughter was born and wanted to visit Nana in Tullahoma, TN. 2+05 enroute in the Bonanza killed the 8.5 hour drive or the TSA-wait-fly to Nashville-drive to Tullahoma.

 

[AV8R_87]

Most of us fly for the fun of it, and usually don't fly as much as we should. Our fixed costs are just that, fixed. It's easy at that point to justify a trip that might be otherwise unjustifiable.
At that point, you might as well stay current and proficient and use that time to avoid other things you dislike (like driving to a commercial airport or being stuck in the back of a 737 or 319).

My go/no-go is usually when it takes more to fly (door to door) than drive. If the time is similar, I find it more relaxing to fly there. Too many people on the road that shouldn't be allowed within 20 feet of a motor vehicle.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Too many people on the road that shouldn't be allowed within 20 feet of a motor vehicle.

Last time I flew the airline, I also noticed that there are too many people out and about that shouldn't be allowed within 20 feet of other people lol.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Last time I flew the airline, I also noticed that there are too many people out and about that shouldn't be allowed within 20 feet of other people lol.

Well with the pilot shortage standards have fallen a little. It worked out for pilots like myself but it’s definitely requiring some time for everyone else to get comfortable.

 

[bflynn]

Last summer I was visiting a friend in Denver. Coming home, her house is 15 minutes from KBJC, but over an hour to KDEN.

Flight from KDEN to KBWI is 3+30, but you have to be at the airport 2 hours before. And it is 45 - 1 hour from getting out of the terminal to home. From my landing to my home for my plane is about 30 minutes max (and that it taking time to wipe off the bugs).

So commercial is 1 + 2 + 3.5 + 1= 7.5 hours with a non-stop flight.

I had nice tailwinds, so it was a 7 hour take off to touchdown flight, so .5 (say 15 minutes to preflight start and taxi) +7 + 30 = 8 hours.

And no sitting around an airport. A lot less walking (I have back problems) and I could leave when I wanted to.

At some point you're paying a more to fly yourself or take more time, but it's still worth it. At another point, it isn't.

 

[pfarber]

Last summer I was visiting a friend in Denver. Coming home, her house is 15 minutes from KBJC, but over an hour to KDEN.

Flight from KDEN to KBWI is 3+30, but you have to be at the airport 2 hours before. And it is 45 - 1 hour from getting out of the terminal to home. From my landing to my home for my plane is about 30 minutes max (and that it taking time to wipe off the bugs).

So commercial is 1 + 2 + 3.5 + 1= 7.5 hours with a non-stop flight.

I had nice tailwinds, so it was a 7 hour take off to touchdown flight, so .5 (say 15 minutes to preflight start and taxi) +7 + 30 = 8 hours.

And no sitting around an airport. A lot less walking (I have back problems) and I could leave when I wanted to.

what's this be at the airport 2+ hours before? if i have a flight in ATL that boards at 9am i park my car in the lot at 8am, carry on only, PreCheck through TSA and I'm at the gate when they call for Priority seating.

Don't people know how to airport?

 

[Kritchlow]

I catch up on sleep in the back of an airliner. That’s of major value to me. Some folks work.

Can’t do that while flying your own plane, so you really need to put that into the mix.

 

[StraightnLevel]

what's this be at the airport 2+ hours before? if i have a flight in ATL that boards at 9am i park my car in the lot at 8am, carry on only, PreCheck through TSA and I'm at the gate when they call for Priority seating.

Right, and then you sit on the plane for 30-40 minutes before you actually push back from the gate. Depending on the plane, boarding is 30-40 minutes. So, yes, an hour before the plane boards is normal for arrival, and that is 90-100 minutes prior to departure.

Then there is drive time. For my regular routes from either of my homes, add an hour or so of drive time. In Houston I'm a solid 70 minutes from IAH, and a solid 55 from MKE at our farm in WI, vs. 5 minutes from KETB and 15 minutes from KLVJ.

So, when you add the hour of driving to the airport time, it's about 2.5 hours of purely wasted time from leaving the house/office to actually hearing the engines start on the CRJ. By then, the GA plane has been in the air for almost 2 hours.

 

[Pinecone]

I catch up on sleep in the back of an airliner. That’s of major value to me. Some folks work.

Can’t do that while flying your own plane, so you really need to put that into the mix.

Sure you can sleep in your own plane while flying. If you have an autopilot.

BUT, I recall a crash a number of years ago. Pilot made a regular trip from the mid west to east coast, at night. He would take off, set the autopilot. Set an alarm clock and go to sleep. For some reason, he overslept and woke up over the Atlantic, without enough fuel to make it back to the coast.

 

[Pinecone]

what's this be at the airport 2+ hours before? if i have a flight in ATL that boards at 9am i park my car in the lot at 8am, carry on only, PreCheck through TSA and I'm at the gate when they call for Priority seating.

Don't people know how to airport?

Hmm, last time I departed from ATL, the line for Clear with PreChek was more than 30 minutes.

 

[iamtheari]

what's this be at the airport 2+ hours before? if i have a flight in ATL that boards at 9am i park my car in the lot at 8am, carry on only, PreCheck through TSA and I'm at the gate when they call for Priority seating.

Don't people know how to airport?

No. Many people don’t know. And they tend to form a line/mob directly in front of everywhere I need to go, including the precheck line. Maybe ATL is different. I’ve only been there once, to sleep on the floor when my plane to ORF had to divert for weather. But I’ve never been to a commercial airport where I haven’t had at least one experience that makes it impossible to rely on getting from the parking lot to the gate in 40 minutes every time.

Edit to add: I remembered another time I was at ATL. I was involuntarily bumped from a flight I had been overbooked into when, a month before my flight, they canceled it and I had to spend 3 hours on the phone getting a new itinerary figured out. The plane had enough seats for me, just not enough oxygen masks for the unseated infants, so they ended up leaving my seat empty. My new-new itinerary was to stay at a hotel “near” MSP, get up at 3:00 am, pay for a cab because the shuttle doesn’t run until 6:00, have an added stop in ATL, and spend my time there calling 13 different phone numbers trying to figure out if anyone would admit to knowing what had happened to my bag. But at least I didn’t have to sleep on the floor.

 

[midwestpa24]

I catch up on sleep in the back of an airliner. That’s of major value to me. Some folks work.

Can’t do that while flying your own plane, so you really need to put that into the mix.

That is the biggest advantage to flying commercial to me, the ability to just check out and let someone else do the driving. Door to door time may be the same driving, but I have to be awake and alert enough to drive the entire time.

 

[Bob Noel]

That is the biggest advantage to flying commercial to me, the ability to just check out and let someone else do the driving. Door to door time may be the same driving, but I have to be awake and alert enough to drive the entire time.

otoh - do you really trust that the flight crew will get the job done correctly?

 

[Kritchlow]

otoh - do you really trust that the flight crew will get the job done correctly?

Not sure if you are serious..??

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I know no one cares, but I just checked tickets for a business trip at the end of March, so not a last minute fare. $1285 was the lowest price and it was at crap times. If the weather is right, the Lance can beat that even solo.

Little town living can be expensive in some ways.