Backup Battery on G5 Appears to be Useless.

jbrrapa

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JBR
On my recent installation of dual G5's, I just noticed that when the master switch is off and the HSI is powered by the backup battery, all that appears on the screen is a compass rose with no information, i.e., no numbers, letters or words. I then learned (which was confirmed by Garmin tech support) that in order for the HSI to work, the magnetometer must be powered. The backup battery does not power the magnetometer. It seems to me that the only time the backup battery would be used is in the event of a loss of the ship's electrical power due to a failure of an alternator, master switch, battery, master relay or otherwise. In that case, the HSI would be useless irrespective of a working G5 backup battery.

If I am correct that the backup battery is useless upon a loss of electrical power, I believe that Garmin is in bad faith by so disclosing.
 
If the internal GPS is enabled, then it will be a GPS-based DG when running on backup battery. In a certified plane, I believe the internal GPS requires and external antenna, but I am not sure. It will also act as a PFD on backup battery.
 
I believe for certificated install the internal GPS is disabled in configuration and to keep in enabled, you need that external antenna Jesse mentioned. I didnt think Garmin ever claimed that the magnetometer will be powered by the backup battery
 
You probably need to be moving for it to determine a heading.
 
Your collective defenses of Garmin are not valid in my opinion. How is a consumer to know that in order for the backup battery to provide any HDI (or DG) backup, the internal GPS of the G5 must be enabled through another GPS antenna at significant addional cost of materials and labor?
 
I’m pretty sure it has both an internal antenna and internal GPS receiver if installed correctly per the STC the HSI page is pretty useless in power failure but it’s intended to default to the attitude page…

read flight manual supplements and fly out into class G and turn power off and see what happens, if behavior matches the documentation it’s prob installed correctly
 
On my recent installation of dual G5's, I just noticed that when the master switch is off and the HSI is powered by the backup battery, all that appears on the screen is a compass rose with no information, i.e., no numbers, letters or words. I then learned (which was confirmed by Garmin tech support) that in order for the HSI to work, the magnetometer must be powered. The backup battery does not power the magnetometer. It seems to me that the only time the backup battery would be used is in the event of a loss of the ship's electrical power due to a failure of an alternator, master switch, battery, master relay or otherwise. In that case, the HSI would be useless irrespective of a working G5 backup battery.

If I am correct that the backup battery is useless upon a loss of electrical power, I believe that Garmin is in bad faith by so disclosing.

I have 2 G5s fed a GPS signal by the GTN 650.

If I lost the alternator, then the ships battery would power the magnometer and GTN 650. I would then load shed to make the ships battery last as long as possible. Assuming I have 30 min of battery I should be able to land somewhere…hopefully.

If the ships battery goes dead then I believe the the HSI takes the last known position and goes into a DR mode using the AHRS input. The G5’s would only be powered by the back up battery at this point.

Of course I have not tested this yet to validate it. Nor do I plan to.


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It would be an unusual failure that both the alternator AND the aircraft battery dies. So the aircraft battery can run both the GMU-11 and your GPS device, with appropriate load-shedding, for at least a half-hour. It would also be wise to have a portable GPS device on its own battery power as an additional backup. I have an Aera 510 wired to ship's power. If the charging system and/or aircraft battery dies, it will run off its own battery for at least an hour, and it would be adequate for helping to maintain headings in an emergency.

The G5s are still much better than a vacuum system. When it dies, your are pretty much done with all useful function of those instruments. The G5s can plug on for a while at some level, especially if the ship's battery is still available.
 
read flight manual supplements

This.

I can understand your frustration, but the avionics shop isn't really in the business of teaching people how to use their new equipment so much as it is to properly install said equipment in accordance with approved data (STC, field approval, etc).

I have had customers return three days after they got their airplane back to tell me the HSI or audio panel or GPS I installed for them wasn't working...and then listened to them scramble to find an excuse when I showed them that they poked a wrong pokey thingy or spun the wrong twisty bits because they had not read the AFMS.
 
This.
I have had customers return three days after they got their airplane back to tell me the HSI or audio panel or GPS I installed for them wasn't working...and then listened to them scramble to find an excuse when I showed them that they poked a wrong pokey thingy or spun the wrong twisty bits because they had not read the AFMS.
That there. The manual should say what will be running on the standby battery.

Besides that, it's a new installation. Mistakes are not unknown, and I'd bet that the magnetometer is supposed to be part of the standby battery's business. IIRC, in the G1000s whenever I did the annual capacity checks (time check) on those batteries, the HSI worked as normal, indicating that the magnetometer was working. And, IIRC, that magnetometer is also part of the attitude-sensing stuff, too, not just heading. The GPS knows where the airplane is and what the magnetic dip is, and uses that info as another source of attitude information.
 
The backup battery does not power the magnetometer. It seems to me that the only time the backup battery would be used is in the event of a loss of the ship's electrical power due to a failure of an alternator, master switch, battery, master relay or otherwise. In that case, the HSI would be useless irrespective of a working G5 backup battery.

If I am correct that the backup battery is useless upon a loss of electrical power, I believe that Garmin is in bad faith by so disclosing.

You're not correct. You simply don't understand the system architecture and how it works.

Further, there's nothing being done in bad faith here.

Two things here, just to make sure we have them all covered: the G5 ADI will still present an attitude solution even if the external GPS input is lost. It is "degraded" but accurate enough you're unlikely to be able to discern the difference. The unit uses the GPS signal to "assist" the attitude solution.

The HSI: if you want your magnetometer powered by a backup source of some kind, get a backup power source for it. I'm not personally aware of any installations regardless of brand in which the magnetometer receives its own unique source of backup power (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so for the Garmin ecosystem, you'll meed another source of electrical power, if that's what you want. In the modern era we're seeing new single-engine piston aircraft being produced with dual alternator installations and of course light twins have always had two sources of electrical power available, one generator or alternator per engine. The ultimate backup is the main battery itself of course.

Since those probably aren't the solutions you envisioned, here's the way it actually works. (I'm assuming your aircraft is set up in the most common way in terms of its electrical system: a main battery and an alternator, usually a 50a or 60a unit, along with associated buses, CBs, solenoids and switches.)

In the event you your aircraft's alternator fails, and subsequently your main battery is then depleted:

1) Your G5 ADI will continue working as you'd expect for as long as the internal backup battery has sufficient charge.
2) Your G5 HSI will continue working as you'd expect for as long as the internal backup battery has sufficient charge, however, instead of heading the unit will display ground track. You'll still be able to navigate normally on the device, however you'll have to ascertain wind correction angles the old fashioned way.

In practice, in a real emergency, this is not a big deal. You'll still be able to fly approaches, maintain SA on your general heading, etc. Don't forget to reference your magnetic direction indicator -- probably your compass.

By the way, this can all be found in the product documentation. Highly recommended reading.
 
Follow on: I added the external GPS antenna (glare shield mounted) for my G5 ADI. The glareshield-mounted GPS antenna (Garmin part number 011-04036-00) feeds a GPS receiver inside the G5 which provides position, velocity, and time data to support various functions. The G5 will use this source when an external GPS (WAAS) signal is lost. I am a "belt and suspenders" guy.
 
Your G5 ADI will continue working as you'd expect for as long as the internal backup battery has sufficient charge

Important to know that your maintenance provider will actually comply with the ICA so you don't end up screwed with a power failure and junk batteries because nobody ever checked them.
 
I just had an electrical problem while flying, I pulled the breakers for nearly everything including the two g5's. I was under the impression that the g5's would still function properly. However, the HSI provides zero information, the attitude g5 still had airspeed, vertical speed, and altimeter, but the attitude indicator was showing about a 5 to 7 degree bank in straight and level flight.

Without doing too much digging, what causes the attitude indicator to be worthless?
 
*necro intensifies*

At any rate, you're correct, the G5 ADI mode is supposed to work normally. The unit is dependent on GPS signal for sensor drift. Most installations feed from a WAAS GPS into the unit, or the internal GPS receiver from the G5 through a glareshield mounted antenna. When GPS is not available in either of the former, secondary aiding is then accomplished via pitot (airspeed) input.

I suppose if you pulled the GPS input power while pulling breakers (I'm assuming your G5 installation feeds from a GPS navigator, as opposed to the internal GPS receiver in the G5), it reverted the G5 ADI into airspeed aided mode, once it lost the GPS input source. Thing is, that mode should still provide a solid atittude information. Tilting 7 degrees in the span of right meow, is pretty poor performance. That is def not the performance Garmin promises from their G5 product while aided by airspeed. Unaided, in the middle of an aerobatic rolling sequence, sure I expect MEMS based unaided electronics to crap the bed pretty quickly. But aided they're supposed to be tight.

There's something wrong with your unit if you saw that kind of solution/presentation drift so quickly after starting to rely on airspeed. I would not be cool flying into IMC knowing that unit tilts that bad without GPS. Personally I'm not a big fan of MEMS-based attitude indicators, or atittude indicators that require speed input to deduce the gravity vector. It's just too gimmicky. I'm okay with them as long as I have a mechanical backup on board (mechanicals have pendulous vanes that chase gravity mechanically and correct/erect the instrument reference frame), since I can't afford laser-ring-gyro in recreational life.
 
The whole point of a backup battery on a G5 is for reversionary mode. The ONLY time the HSI would ever host the standby battery would be when installed in a dual G5 arrangement.

In the dual G5 arrangement, the HSI functions as a reversionary standby AI (which is an even more important instrument), and has the standby battery. If you lose electrical power, the ADI goes dead, and the HSI reverts to being a standby attitude indicator.

If you have a single G5 ADI, it will host its own standby battery. But for a single G5 HSI, there's absolutely no point.

Use your ship's wet compass as your standby heading indicator.
 
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The whole point of a backup battery on a G5 is for reversionary mode. The ONLY time the HSI would ever host the standby battery would be when installed in a dual G5 arrangement.

In the dual G5 arrangement, the HSI functions as a reversionary standby ADI (which is an even more important instrument), and has the standby battery. If you lose electrical power, the ADI goes dead, and the HSI reverts to being a standby attitude indicator.

If you have a single G5 ADI, it will host its own standby battery. But for a single G5 HSI, there's absolutely no point.

Use your ship's wet compass as your standby heading indicator.

That's great, unless the ADI is not worth a **** without additional equipment operating. The whole point of a battery backup is so that the instrument is still worth looking at. In my case it was not.
 
That's great, unless the ADI is not worth a **** without additional equipment operating. The whole point of a battery backup is so that the instrument is still worth looking at. In my case it was not.
Either G5 can operate just fine as an AI without additional equipment operating. They have their own built in ADAHRS. Although the heading won't be available, attitude and air data will be (which, btw, G5 is not approved as a primary air data source in certificated aircraft, thus why your primary pneumatic instruments must be retained). Attitude is the most important of these, which the G5 does not rely on any external system to provide. It was only ever meant to function as a backup attitude indicator in reversionary mode.
 
Either G5 can operate just fine as an AI without additional equipment operating.
and the poster is explaining that it didn't work just fine. Garmin may argue the attitude presentation ought to "operate just fine" absent both GPS and airspeed... but it didn't in this case.

The issue is that in the case of the OP, he only lost the GPS input when he pulled the GPS source breaker (I'm assuming it was coming from a GPS navigator, and not the internal GPS receiver of the G5). As such, the pitot airspeed input was still available. That should have been enough for his G5 to remain tight, but it didn't.

That to me implies there's a problem with the unit. A 7-degree list in level flight that quickly after pulling the GPS input power source, is unacceptable in IMC. In my experience, I've come to expect very poor drift performance from these MEMS doo dads when unaided. but when they're still being aided by either GPS or airspeed they should be tight.

I wouldn't launch into IMC with it if I were the OP, until they could diagnose and repair that unit. Maybe he has a pitot leak into that unit and doesn't know it, I'm not saying it can only be the G5 being faulty.

A good experiment would be to take it up VMC and pull the GPS input, then see how it behaves. If he can replicate the drift behavior compared to the GPS aided behavior, yeah the unit is not being properly aided by airspeed, and that's gotta get checked out before further incursion into IMC. Recreational IMC ain't worth playing russian roulette with.
 
and the poster is explaining that it didn't work just fine. Garmin may argue the attitude presentation ought to "operate just fine" absent both GPS and airspeed... but it didn't in this case.

The issue is that in the case of the OP, he only lost the GPS input when he pulled the GPS source breaker (I'm assuming it was coming from a GPS navigator, and not the internal GPS receiver of the G5). As such, the pitot airspeed input was still available. That should have been enough for his G5 to remain tight, but it didn't.

That to me implies there's a problem with the unit. A 7-degree list in level flight that quickly after pulling the GPS input power source, is unacceptable in IMC. In my experience, I've come to expect very poor drift performance from these MEMS doo dads when unaided. but when they're still being aided by either GPS or airspeed they should be tight.

I wouldn't launch into IMC with it if I were the OP, until they could diagnose and repair that unit. Maybe he has a pitot leak into that unit and doesn't know it, I'm not saying it can only be the G5 being faulty.

A good experiment would be to take it up VMC and pull the GPS input, then see how it behaves. If he can replicate the drift behavior compared to the GPS aided behavior, yeah the unit is not being properly aided by airspeed, and that's gotta get checked out before further incursion into IMC. Recreational IMC ain't worth playing russian roulette with.
I just realized the current OP had revived a 5+ year old thread. Me not realizing this is a 5+ year old thread, I was responding to the original thread starter.

Why do people do this!? OP should have started a completely new post rather than revive an over 5 year old post that had nothing to do with the symptoms he was experiencing. :mad2:
 
Your collective defenses of Garmin are not valid in my opinion. How is a consumer to know that in order for the backup battery to provide any HDI (or DG) backup, the internal GPS of the G5 must be enabled through another GPS antenna at significant addional cost of materials and labor?
It is assumed that your shop doing the installation will know how to read the installation manuals.
 
I just realized the current OP had revived a 5+ year old thread. Me not realizing this is a 5+ year old thread, I was responding to the original thread starter.

Why do people do this!? OP should have started a completely new post rather than revive an over 5 year old post that had nothing to do with the symptoms he was experiencing. :mad2:
Indeed. It's why I started my original reply with a sarcastic *necro intensifies*, to give people heads up about the Lazarus event unfolding. The only necros I dont mind are ntsb finals, as definitionally there isnt anything that agency does that isn't necroposting lol.
 
Indeed. It's why I started my original reply with a sarcastic *necro intensifies*, to give people heads up about the Lazarus event unfolding. The only necros I dont mind are ntsb finals, as definitionally there isnt anything that agency does that isn't necroposting lol.
Seems the board may be best served if the admins/mods could lock threads for further replies if they've gone a year without any thread posts. Might be an idea I can pitch to the writers of this forum software to add it as an automated feature.
 
Seems the board may be best served if the admins/mods could lock threads for further replies if they've gone a year without any thread posts. Might be an idea I can pitch to the writers of this forum software to add it as an automated feature.
We've talked about that, but sometimes there are uses for that like when the NTSB finals come out years after the thread about the crash, etc...

What we do have is a massive banner that shows up when you try to necropost that warns you that you're posting to a sleeping thread.
 
We've talked about that, but sometimes there are uses for that like when the NTSB finals come out years after the thread about the crash, etc...

What we do have is a massive banner that shows up when you try to necropost that warns you that you're posting to a sleeping thread.
That doesn't help when someone's already revived the thread and others come along and unwittingly reply to years-old posts.

It is assumed that your shop doing the installation will know how to read the installation manuals.
 
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