backing a 172 into a parking spot, probably silly question

Tom-D said:
I'm saying many students do not carry this insurance. simply because they believe the CFI has them covered.
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If a student won't find out what insurance coverage he has during flight training, that's just stupidity.
 
mtuomi said:
Where exactly do you disagree with me? I said: Non-owned insurance will cover that, so I'd say many students have that.
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You must teach in a flight school.
 
mtuomi said:
If a student won't find out what insurance coverage he has during flight training, that's just stupidity.
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They didn't come to you to teach them about aviation because they knew it all already. Think.
 
mtuomi said:
Negative. But I do carry non-owned insurance, even though I own my own plane. I like to be over- rather than underinsured.
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So your 1 in a 1,000,000, what ever.
most new students don't even know what renters insurance is, and many CFIs don't tell them.
 
Tom-D said:
So your 1 in a 1,000,000, what ever.
most new students don't even know what renters insurance is, and many CFIs don't tell them.
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They are the people who rent a car, say "no" to all the "extra" insurance, crash it, and then complain that they have to pay. Expecting to be spoon fed everything is dangerous.
 
mtuomi said:
They are the people who rent a car, say "no" to all the "extra" insurance, crash it, and then complain that they have to pay. Expecting to be spoon fed everything is dangerous.
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what does that have to do with new students?
 
Tom-D said:
what does that have to do with new students?
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It's not just new students, it's anyone who fails to find out what their coverage is in different activities. I'd say most people have the common sense to do this.
Now, if the CFI lies to them and says "yes you are covered" even though they are not, that's a different ballgame. But simply going and thinking they are covered is just not very smart.
 
Shepherd said:
Just forward of the fin. I drape my arm over the fuselage and put some weight on it.
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As any rational person would do. And as any instructor in his or her right mind would instruct a student pilot too inexperienced to know. This stuff isn't rocket science.
 
rolivi said:
Did you see the picture in the original post? Nothing but grass behind, two open spaces?

I guess we need OP to tell us if that is the ACTUAL spot or something similar. But that looks like a spin in spot for me.

If it were between planes of course you go for as close to perpendicular to the parked planes and grab the tow bar. I have a castering nose wheel. I don't push or pull without a tow bar.
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It was the actual spot, the grass you see is about all of it, meaning there is a road just out of the picture. Also there are streetlights and signs in the grass, you can see the shadows. There were tie down ropes at each spot as well that I'd be worried about picking up with the prop. I'll be getting a tow bar demo next time I check out the plane. :)

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exncsurfer said:
I'll be getting a tow bar demo next time I check out the plane. :)
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It isn't rocket surgery. But make sure you get some lessons on rotating the prop safely, too.

And remember to remove the tow bar when you are done. Don't be that guy that takes off with the tow bar still attached.
 
DaleB said:
As any rational person would do. And as any instructor in his or her right mind would instruct a student pilot too inexperienced to know. This stuff isn't rocket science.
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I think Tom's point(a good one) was that its not obvious where to push, as he ends up fixing the bent metal. We have 'experts' on this thread advising to use the horizontal stabilizer. The POH says push on the tail cone bulkhead, maybe that is just forward of the fin. Its not rocket science but there are apparently plenty of ways to do it wrong.
 
exncsurfer said:
I think Tom's point(a good one) was that its not obvious where to push, as he ends up fixing the bent metal. We have 'experts' on this thread advising to use the horizontal stabilizer. The POH says push on the tail cone bulkhead, maybe that is just forward of the fin. Its not rocket science but there are apparently plenty of ways to do it wrong.
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Use the tow bar. That's what it's for.

This pushing airplanes around advice sounds like vestiges of "Golden Age" flying.
 
Reminds me of when, a few weeks after I had soloed, I was returning a 172 and had to push it into its assigned parking spot at the flight school by myself. The adjacent 172s were improperly aligned and it looked like my wingtips would not fit between the other 172s' wing tips. So I just chocked the airplane half in the taxiway, got the instructor and told him he had to push it back, while I spotted. Problem solved!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
 
Matthew said:
It isn't rocket surgery. But make sure you get some lessons on rotating the prop safely, too.

And remember to remove the tow bar when you are done. Don't be that guy that takes off with the tow bar still attached.
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Absolutely, make sure those mags are grounded before you start messing with the prop!
 
If or when your life is in danger and you must push down on a Cessna Stab, Place your hands on a rivet row, never in the open bays, the skin is only .016" You bend it it will not fly correctly.
The aft fuselage bulkhead is where the vertical fin's spar attaches. It is also where the elevator bell crank attaches inside the tailcone.
 
Tom-D said:
How would you do that?
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Remove them and place them on the ground.

I think he is simply saying "mags off" but knows someone will say "the p-lead might be broken" so he was being more thorough in his terminology. I never trust a mag to be off. I turn a prop as though it wants to start everytime.
 
Shepherd said:
Just forward of the fin. I drape my arm over the fuselage and put some weight on it.
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Joshuajayg said:
Remove them and place them on the ground.

I think he outs simply saying "mags off" but knows someone will say "the p-lead might be broken" so he was being more thorough.
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There is an AD that requires some ignition switches to be checked by turning the mags off by the switch every 100 hours. this will insure the whole circuit is in working order in any aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
There is an AD that requires some ignition switches to be checked by turning the mags off by the switch every 100 hours. this will insure the whole circuit is in working order in any aircraft.
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Sure, but when was that last done? It is not standard practice for every flight so it is not likely to be done just prior to the last shutdown.

And as you said, it is some switches. (Push to start, push to prime, twist to start.)
 
Joshuajayg said:
Sure, but when was that last done? It is not standard practice for every flight so it is not likely to be done just prior to the last shutdown.

And as you said, it is some switches. (Push to start, push to prime, twist to start.)
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Why not add it to your shut down check list? then you'd know.
If you are putting away the aircraft you just flew, why not do it.
It shouldn't be done every time you shut down but once in a while is good.
 
I touch many more airplanes than those that I had flown last. Sure I could do it to the airplane I flew if I felt it was necessary but I just treat propellers with respect and all is well.
 
Joshuajayg said:
I touch many more airplanes than those that I had flown last. Sure I could do it to the airplane I flew if I felt it was necessary but I just treat propellers with respect and all is well.
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Turning a prop backwards the mags can't fire.
 
Tom-D said:
Why not add it to your shut down check list? then you'd know.
If you are putting away the aircraft you just flew, why not do it.
It shouldn't be done every time you shut down but once in a while is good.
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Yep, it's part of my shut down list.
 
Joshuajayg said:
Sure, but when was that last done? It is not standard practice for every flight so it is not likely to be done just prior to the last shutdown.

And as you said, it is some switches. (Push to start, push to prime, twist to start.)
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I do that before every shutdown. Not difficult. Briefly turn the mags to OFF with the engine at idle, then back to both. Any change in idle sound indicates a good ground.
 
Matthew said:
And remember to remove the tow bar when you are done. Don't be that guy that takes off with the tow bar still attached.
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This is why I say the towbar is in your hand or in the baggage compartment. Do not deviate from that practice.
 
Tom-D said:
There is an AD that requires some ignition switches to be checked by turning the mags off by the switch every 100 hours. this will insure the whole circuit is in working order in any aircraft.
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Yup. The Bendix ignition switch AD. 76-07-12. And I regularly find it faithfully recorded in the logs, year after year, and the switch they've been testing isn't a Bendix. It's very often an ACS or Gerdes (same thing as ACS). There's an entirely different AD on that switch, and I usually find that it has never been addressed. ^This one:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...B8ABD56539B4684886256A3E00759DBF?OpenDocument

One has to actually get under the instrument panel and take a close look at the switch to see what make it is.

And the Bendix AD doesn't apply to switches with later date codes. The AD specifies which.
 
Clark1961 said:
This is why I say the towbar is in your hand or in the baggage compartment. Do not deviate from that practice.
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This. It was taught to me by my first CFI and it gives me the willies to see an airplane with a towbar attached and no one standing at it.

I pulled my airplane out of the hangar with the tug yesterday (after flying not going flying) and then left it attached to push it back in after I called the fuel truck over to top it off. Even took a photo for FB. And I was mentally itchy and scratchy about it the whole time. And I had no intention of starting the airplane.

Only thing that kept me from not just taking it off was that I knew there's no way I'd ever start the thing with it sticking halfway out of the hangar. But I didn't like breaking the rule.
 
Mine's always got the tow bar attached while it's in the hangar. Pull it out of the hangar, remove the tow bar. I don't recall ever having to use the tow bar away from home... no, I take that back. Oshkosh. But I didn't have any trouble remembering to take it off immediately after use, because the tow bar doubles as the control lock.
 
Joshuajayg said:
Sure, but when was that last done? It is not standard practice for every flight so it is not likely to be done just prior to the last shutdown.
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When I learned to fly I was taught to always do a mag ground check before shutting down with the mixture. Some years later I freaked out a CFI by during that during a rental checkout. Once I explained what I was doing he was cool with it.

My current plane doesn't shut down with mixture; the mag (singular) does it.

Tom-D said:
Turning a prop backwards the mags can't fire.
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But turning backwards can damage some engines.
 
Checking the OFF position of planes with that type of switch is a good practice.

Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I put it full rich, 1,000RPM, ignition off, ignition both, RPM stable, mixture lean, engine stops, ignition off, master off.

But that's just when I'm flying with mags.
 
rolivi said:
Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I put it full rich, 1,000RPM, ignition off, ignition both, RPM stable, mixture lean, engine stops, ignition off, master off.

But that's just when I'm flying with mags.
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What does the checklist say?
 
Dana said:
But turning backwards can damage some engines.
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Not disagreeing with you, but can you give a documented example from a typical piston single? Key word here is documented.* Call it a "prove it to me" challenge.

For most piston singles I have zero qualms about gently turning a prop backward if it's needed for some reason.

Next challenge, describe the only time that's really necessary.** It does relate to the tow-bar on singles.

* caveat: Many people will immediately go to saying that a dry vacuum pump can break a vane if turned backward. If you've ever seen a cutaway cross section of one, and the manufacturers of them used to make such things to hand out, you'll see that the "catch" angle of the vane isn't steep enough to do that UNLESS the vane is so worn or the inside surface of the pump is, that it wasn't long for this world anyway -- and you might as well find out during the next run-up before the IFR flight than afterward. You also won't find any warnings documented much about it from the vacuum pump people. And if you have access to one of those demo devices you can see, it's just not going to happen unless there's already something wrong or the vane is worn down to the limits anyway, in a typical pump.

**No, props don't need to be horizontal on the ramp, but many of us were taught that out of a perhaps misguided sense that a wing may pass over it and not strike it if someone taxis too close. While true, the real problem is, of course, that they taxied too close. ;)

Disclaimer: I bet you can find an aircraft that states you shouldn't. I've just never flown one.
 
denverpilot said:
Not disagreeing with you, but can you give a documented example from a typical piston single? Key word here is documented.* Call it a "prove it to me" challenge.
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Anything with a Rotax 912/914 series engine.
 
denverpilot said:
**No, props don't need to be horizontal on the ramp, but many of us were taught that out of a perhaps misguided sense that a wing may pass over it and not strike it if someone taxis too close. While true, the real problem is, of course, that they taxied too close. ;)
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Many operations use the position of the prop as an indication to the fuel truck drivers.

But you knew that!
 
rolivi said:
Many operations use the position of the prop as an indication to the fuel truck drivers.

But you knew that!
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I've always found that weird. But I guess it works for some. I think building a procedure to move props by hand on purpose as a matter of course, could build a complacency toward messing with props that's not necessary.

It's not like we don't have instant electronic communication tools in all of our pockets these days. Not that hard to send a list of aircraft that need fuel directly to the pocket of a ramp crew. The airlines manage to do it. And most places that use such procedures already have airline style dispatch stuff going on anyway.

It'd take about a week of development to put that all in an app. Maybe a month with bureaucracy. Airplane X needs fuel and it's parked at Y. Make it a project for the graduate students and drag it out over a semester if one needs free labor. Heh.
 
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