Back in the saddle!

I was thinking more along the lines of, say, a Spartan Executive. :)
 
Well, shoot. Took the 172 out for some solo time tonight. 7kt wind almost right down the runway, nice! Took off, headed out west where there are nice regular farm fields.

I did some rectangular patterns, but it almost felt like cheating with so little wind. So I just concentrated on keeping altitude & airspeed constant. Both were well within bounds, no more than +/- 25' and maybe 5 MPH total. And I wasn't even really trying that hard, I was feeling pretty good. The one thing I have to really watch is the rudder though. A couple of times I caught myself with a bunch of left rudder in after rolling out of a turn. After the second time I figured out how to recognize it without looking at the TC. I'm getting better at that. If I were still flying Cherokees this wouldn't be an issue. :) Did some turns around a point, left and right hand, then S-turns. I may need more practice just on setting up for those.

Steep turns were fun. Left was spot on, right I lost about 100' the first time around. Nailed it the second time. It was getting past dinner time so I headed for home. Got AWOS, made my calls, crossed midfield, did a nice pattern and made what was the most perfect landing I had ever done up to that point. Beautiful flare, greased the mains onto the runway and gently lowered the nose. Since I'm not supposed to do T&G in the 172, I taxied back and took off again. The second landing was very close to perfect, but I did have to add a touch of power and float her maybe 50' or so farther down than my target spot. Still, very nice gentle touchdown on the mains, nose nice and high, let it settle down, and... Thump!! Front and started bouncing, hauled back on the yoke to get as much weight as I could off the nose, which didn't help. I parked it at the FBO, since I needed to top off the tanks anyway. The nose gear strut was flat as a mackerel. So it's in the maintenance hangar now, waiting on the A&P to look at it in the morning. I called the club maintenance guys and let him know. No biggie, he says, it happens.

I swear I landed right!!!
 
It was still daylight. I've flown at night, but I don't think I have an endorsement for solo night flight yet.
 
While pushing planes around with the rudder is generally discouraged, with a bit of advanced technique of unloading the wing (precluding the ability to stall) and kickng the tail around is a maneuver of tactical use in some tight turnbacks over tanks to get a glimpse of the back side valves before following out again. This all happens beween 25' and 150'-200'. Do as you do and work towards coordination being the desired default state, but don't be shy about manhandling the plane around some to feel what it can do when you need it. You really only risk spinning while at low states of energy and with a loaded wing.
 
The rudder thing was just me forgetting to pull my foot OFF the rudder pedal. I'd apply rudder to stay coordinated going into the turn, but then neglect to ease off as it was no longer needed. So then I had the situation of rolling out of a left turn, for example, with some left rudder still in.

I'm good about staying coordinated rolling into turns, I just need to pay a little more attention rolling out. The 172 requires a lot more attention to both than what I was flying before, so I'm glad I'm flying it -- it's making me fly better. I'm getting there. The last time it kind of "clicked", I think I figured out how to do it without looking at the TC.
 
Shouldn't need much (if any) rudder once established in the turn unless they're climbing or descending (and even then, just a little in the Skyhawk).

Experiment with taking it out as you take the aileron out and see where the ball ends up. Think you'll be surprised. ;)
 
DaleB said:
Well, shoot. Took the 172 out for some solo time tonight. 7kt wind almost right down the runway, nice! Took off, headed out west where there are nice regular farm fields.

I did some rectangular patterns, but it almost felt like cheating with so little wind. So I just concentrated on keeping altitude & airspeed constant. Both were well within bounds, no more than +/- 25' and maybe 5 MPH total. And I wasn't even really trying that hard, I was feeling pretty good. The one thing I have to really watch is the rudder though. A couple of times I caught myself with a bunch of left rudder in after rolling out of a turn. After the second time I figured out how to recognize it without looking at the TC. I'm getting better at that. If I were still flying Cherokees this wouldn't be an issue. :) Did some turns around a point, left and right hand, then S-turns. I may need more practice just on setting up for those.

Steep turns were fun. Left was spot on, right I lost about 100' the first time around. Nailed it the second time. It was getting past dinner time so I headed for home. Got AWOS, made my calls, crossed midfield, did a nice pattern and made what was the most perfect landing I had ever done up to that point. Beautiful flare, greased the mains onto the runway and gently lowered the nose. Since I'm not supposed to do T&G in the 172, I taxied back and took off again. The second landing was very close to perfect, but I did have to add a touch of power and float her maybe 50' or so farther down than my target spot. Still, very nice gentle touchdown on the mains, nose nice and high, let it settle down, and... Thump!! Front and started bouncing, hauled back on the yoke to get as much weight as I could off the nose, which didn't help. I parked it at the FBO, since I needed to top off the tanks anyway. The nose gear strut was flat as a mackerel. So it's in the maintenance hangar now, waiting on the A&P to look at it in the morning. I called the club maintenance guys and let him know. No biggie, he says, it happens.

I swear I landed right!!!
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During training with my primary CFI, mine fell on itself, crunch, just like yours, but it was that way when we got to the plane. We did a couple of landings, and as long as I kept elevator all the way back it was OK. Heard the "crunch" during brake check / engine start but that was it. Looking back I'm surprised he let the flight continue. I was supposed to solo that night but I did so the following weekend after they fixed the crunch.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
During training with my primary CFI, mine fell on itself, crunch, just like yours, but it was that way when we got to the plane. We did a couple of landings, and as long as I kept elevator all the way back it was OK. Heard the "crunch" during brake check / engine start but that was it. Looking back I'm surprised he let the flight continue. I was supposed to solo that night but I did so the following weekend after they fixed the crunch.
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I'd imagine the prop tips were MUCH closer to the pavement. One wheelbarrow could mean a prop strike. Would you do this again, now that you're on your own ticket?
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'd imagine the prop tips were MUCH closer to the pavement. One wheelbarrow could mean a prop strike. Would you do this again, now that you're on your own ticket?
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No way.

Plus, the guy who runs my new place would not let me anyways.

He'd fix it right away, give me credit for the time (as MX and not charge me hobbs if all I did was taxi out).

Also, I'm checked out in another plane there so I'd just take the other plane or go home.

I did a lot of dumb things when I was a pre-solo student. At that stage, I sort of followed my CFI around like a lost puppy. I'm realizing more and more what it means to be PIC.
 
The plane got fixed in no time. I took it up this morning and did a few rectangular courses, tours around a point and steep turns. I had a pretty stiff wind from the SW, so it wasn't a complete no brainer. But, I still knew I was just avoiding the unpleasant stuff.

I had to do stalls. I'd never stalled the 172 without the CFI in the right seat, and was not looking forward to it. The Cherokee is easy to stall well. The 172 seems to be looking for an excuse to drop a wing and spin. Feels like it to me, the "pond scum low-time solo student" as someone here put it. :) So I did a few power-off stalls. The first one was OK but I came out of it WAY off course. The next couple were much better, I managed to keep it pointed in the right direction throughout the stall and recovery, and only lost about 50'. Then I slowed it way down. The ASI read between 45 and 50 MPH, nearly full throttle, full flaps, as I eased it around in a couple of figure-8s. Piece of cake. Next time I'll see if I can get it a little slower. Come to think of it... I don't recall hearing the stall warning once all morning. I wonder if it's inop.

By this time I was about done, decided to head back and do some pattern work. I knew there would be a little crosswind, and wanted to take advantage of that to work on keeping it stable on final. SO about 10 miles out I switched to the CTAF... Holy crap! Could barely get a word in edge-wise. There was a Tri-Pacer crossing mid-field, a Decathlon 1 mile west. A 150 a mile south, somebody else saying he was going to land opposite everyone else until someone finally convinced him otherwise (12/30, wind 180 at about 9 kt). I was about 2 miles west and turning to cross midfield when a Bo announced the HE was about to cross midfield. His first radio call, great. I spotted him and followed him in. The landing was not too bad, considering the x-wind was right at the max my solo endorsement allows. As I taxied, I saw a TON of people, many kids, milling around the FBO. Figured it had to be Young Eagles, which would explain the traffic.

I taxied back for another lap, waited for an Arrow and a 150 to land, and followed a Glastar out. My second landing was "just OK", at least by my current standards. Still WAY WAY better than I'd have done a couple of weeks ago. Given the traffic and the crowd of spectators, though, I decided it was time to call it a day. I've got teh plane reserved later this evening, but unless it gets significantly better at KMLE I won't be able to fly. Right now winds are from 150, 15G30. Not fun to try to take off, let alone land (and well above my current limit as well).
 
Hey, Pond-scum,

When recovering from power-on stalls in the Cessna, hold about one-half ball to the right. Wings will fall straight with no inclination to drop.

Your friend,

Wayne

DaleB said:
The plane got fixed in no time. I took it up this morning and did a few rectangular courses, tours around a point and steep turns. I had a pretty stiff wind from the SW, so it wasn't a complete no brainer. But, I still knew I was just avoiding the unpleasant stuff.

I had to do stalls. I'd never stalled the 172 without the CFI in the right seat, and was not looking forward to it. The Cherokee is easy to stall well. The 172 seems to be looking for an excuse to drop a wing and spin. Feels like it to me, the "pond scum low-time solo student" as someone here put it. :) So I did a few power-off stalls. The first one was OK but I came out of it WAY off course. The next couple were much better, I managed to keep it pointed in the right direction throughout the stall and recovery, and only lost about 50'. Then I slowed it way down. The ASI read between 45 and 50 MPH, nearly full throttle, full flaps, as I eased it around in a couple of figure-8s. Piece of cake. Next time I'll see if I can get it a little slower. Come to think of it... I don't recall hearing the stall warning once all morning. I wonder if it's inop.

By this time I was about done, decided to head back and do some pattern work. I knew there would be a little crosswind, and wanted to take advantage of that to work on keeping it stable on final. SO about 10 miles out I switched to the CTAF... Holy crap! Could barely get a word in edge-wise. There was a Tri-Pacer crossing mid-field, a Decathlon 1 mile west. A 150 a mile south, somebody else saying he was going to land opposite everyone else until someone finally convinced him otherwise (12/30, wind 180 at about 9 kt). I was about 2 miles west and turning to cross midfield when a Bo announced the HE was about to cross midfield. His first radio call, great. I spotted him and followed him in. The landing was not too bad, considering the x-wind was right at the max my solo endorsement allows. As I taxied, I saw a TON of people, many kids, milling around the FBO. Figured it had to be Young Eagles, which would explain the traffic.

I taxied back for another lap, waited for an Arrow and a 150 to land, and followed a Glastar out. My second landing was "just OK", at least by my current standards. Still WAY WAY better than I'd have done a couple of weeks ago. Given the traffic and the crowd of spectators, though, I decided it was time to call it a day. I've got teh plane reserved later this evening, but unless it gets significantly better at KMLE I won't be able to fly. Right now winds are from 150, 15G30. Not fun to try to take off, let alone land (and well above my current limit as well).
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wabower said:
Hey, Pond-scum,

When recovering from power-on stalls in the Cessna, hold about one-half ball to the right. Wings will fall straight with no inclination to drop.

Your friend,

Wayne
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I'll try that. That's recovering, not going into, though -- correct? I did notice a definite tendency to rotate to the left during recovery which I didn't arrest/correct the first time, I was paying too much attention to throttle & flaps. I just remember the first time I stalled the thing, I had the ball off center to the right a bit. No big deal in the PA-28 I had been flying. Big deal in a Cessna. Scared me half to death.
 
DaleB said:
Come to think of it... I don't recall hearing the stall warning once all morning. I wonder if it's inop.
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Isn't it on the pre-flight checklist to test it?

Do you have the flapper switch type or the slot/hole in the left leading edge that requires suction to set it off?

The former is easy to test. Master on, go flip it up.

The latter can also be tested, but I'm leery to describe "gentle suction" here in this crowd. :rofl:
 
I was dissuaded from doing power on stalls solo as a student. I still don't do them.

In the SP, It feels like I'm near vertical and have to force the break.
 
denverpilot said:
Isn't it on the pre-flight checklist to test it?

Do you have the flapper switch type or the slot/hole in the left leading edge that requires suction to set it off?

The former is easy to test. Master on, go flip it up.

The latter can also be tested, but I'm leery to describe "gentle suction" here in this crowd. :rofl:
Click to expand...
It's got the hole in the LE of the left wing. I don't think it's on the preflight checklist, at least not the big laminated one in the plane. I'll check the POH. I asked the CFI about it, he said it COULD be tested, if I wanted to climb up and... well, never mind.

Last night I talked to the last guy who flew it before me, he said the stall warning worked fine yesterday morning when he was doing slow flight with an instructor. I never heard it... so either it wasn't working for me, OR it's just a little anemic and I didn't hear it, OR maybe 45 to 50 MPH IAS is not really close to stalling. :dunno:
 
Jaybird180 said:
I was dissuaded from doing power on stalls solo as a student. I still don't do them.

In the SP, It feels like I'm near vertical and have to force the break.
Click to expand...
Huh. You're the second person who has said that to me in the past 12 hours. About not doing stalls solo, I mean.

I did power-off stalls the other day, no big deal. It makes me a little nervous, but I'm getting used to it.

Last night I tried some power-on stalls. I had a tough time keeping it straight while going into the stall; I was using rudder and aileron as needed to keep it coordinated and pointing in the right direction. Right before the stall it would swing away to the left more than I wanted. Then it started buffeting and I couldn't convince my arm not to lower the nose and give it full throttle. I just couldn't bring myself to let the stall completely break. Never did hear the stall horn.

So I did steep turns until I could keep them pretty much spot on, altitude +/- about 25'. Keeping the airspeed up was the biggest challenge. I worked specifically on using the rudder rolling in and out to keep the ball centered. Then I came back and practiced dodging Cherokees in the pattern (with the occasional Arrow and a strap Pilatus) and did landings until I got tired. If I make it out today I'll do slow flight again, but mainly I want to see if I can meet with my CFI and get some endorsements signed off. I feel a little like I'm just burning Hobbs time when I could be doing X/C. All I need is X/C and instrument time now, and a few more solo hours.
 
Power off stalls are a non-event. I'll do those all day (although I haven't done them in awhile- focusing on XC right now as $$ economically as possible).

Power on....don't let my limitations become your own - just relaying what was told to me while a student. This was from a CFI who when HE was a Comm Student inadvertantly spun the aircraft while practicing power on stalls and it shook him up a bit. Not sure he quite got over it :dunno:
 
I'll keep trying, pushing it a little farther as long as I can do so within my own comfort zone... or close to it. If I can't get to the point where I'm OK with doing it, I'll work some more with the instructor. We've got to do 3 hours of instrument time anyway, I can tell him to not do or say anything while I work on it... just be there in case something goes horribly wrong.

It feels a little irrational, honestly. I start at about 3500 AGL, so it's not like it's a low altitude thing. I know (though I've never been able to practice, of course) how to recover from an inadvertent spin. Just really don't want to try it the hard way. Power-on stalls in the PA-28 were a non-event, too... the 172 seems much more demanding.
 
DaleB said:
I'll keep trying, pushing it a little farther as long as I can do so within my own comfort zone... or close to it. If I can't get to the point where I'm OK with doing it, I'll work some more with the instructor. We've got to do 3 hours of instrument time anyway, I can tell him to not do or say anything while I work on it... just be there in case something goes horribly wrong.

It feels a little irrational, honestly. I start at about 3500 AGL, so it's not like it's a low altitude thing. I know (though I've never been able to practice, of course) how to recover from an inadvertent spin. Just really don't want to try it the hard way. Power-on stalls in the PA-28 were a non-event, too... the 172 seems much more demanding.
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Go get spin training and you can quit worrying about inadvertent spins. Learn them inside and out and they are another non event like turbulence, they can be scary but as long as you handle the situations properly you'll be fine.
 
I'd start throwing things at my monitor and jabbering in various cuss words about Instructors who are scared of spins, if I weren't posting from iPad.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?!
 
Henning said:
Go get spin training and you can quit worrying about inadvertent spins. Learn them inside and out and they are another non event like turbulence, they can be scary but as long as you handle the situations properly you'll be fine.
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It's on my to-do list. BUT... in answer to this and Denverpilot's mini-rant :) I think both the 172 and the PA-28 are placarded with a prohibition against intentional spins. I know every Cherokee I've flown has been. I'd have to double check, but I think the 172 is also. So I'd have to go find yet another instructor and airplane for that. I've seen a Traumahawk at the field, but only once.
 
Older 172s can be flown in the Utility Category. I forget what model you're flying but it's probably new enough that Cessna placarded it.
 
Power on stalls in the DA-20 is tricky. You really dont hear the stall horn, i just go by my IAS and when it reaches close to 34kts (min stall speed) i bring the nose back down and level her out. They are tricky though, especially in a 10 degree turn.
 
Legiox said:
Power on stalls in the DA-20 is tricky. You really dont hear the stall horn, i just go by my IAS and when it reaches close to 34kts (min stall speed) i bring the nose back down and level her out. They are tricky though, especially in a 10 degree turn.
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Wh not wait for the break? I never stalled the 20, only the 40.
 
I dreaded power-on stalls during training, but it's beginning to sink in that they're no big deal; it's not like us low time pilots are flying glasairs. Use your feet and fix the AoA.

Doing power-on stall training in a 172 with a stall horn that turned out to be inop taught me to start putting out for the Cessna wing during preflight. One of the ironies of aviation is that you'll want a kleenex for this activity.

Maybe it's the fact that I have a few more hours under my belt, but I felt more comfortable doing power-on stalls in the DA20 than in the 172; it just sort of did the falling leaf thing. The rudder was way more sensitive than I was expecting it to be at low airspeed.

That said, proper spin training is still on my list.
 
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I had problems in the beginning applying the right rudder (compensate for torque) during power on stall. Would always forget which rudder pedal to step on to apply right rudder. Then someone showed me the saying "step on the ball" to apply rudder in direction you want to plane to go back to equilibrium.
 
DaleB said:
It's on my to-do list. BUT... in answer to this and Denverpilot's mini-rant :) I think both the 172 and the PA-28 are placarded with a prohibition against intentional spins. I know every Cherokee I've flown has been. I'd have to double check, but I think the 172 is also. So I'd have to go find yet another instructor and airplane for that. I've seen a Traumahawk at the field, but only once.
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How much do you weigh? If we could make things work in a C150 from a W&B perspective I could fly one over to MLE and we could do spins.
 
DaleB said:
It's got the hole in the LE of the left wing. I don't think it's on the preflight checklist, at least not the big laminated one in the plane. I'll check the POH. I asked the CFI about it, he said it COULD be tested, if I wanted to climb up and... well, never mind.
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Sporty's sells a nice little Cessna stall horn checker that you place over the hole, hold in place, push and release. You'll hear the horn go off. I bought one years ago as a student pilot and it works great. Yeah, probably over priced, but I test the stall warning while standing on the ground and not have to look like I'm kissing the wing. :D
 
jesse said:
How much do you weigh? If we could make things work in a C150 from a W&B perspective I could fly one over to MLE and we could do spins.
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Probably too much to squeeze into a 150. :) Having said that... I'm about to be gone for a week and a half, but when I get back I'll be doing some X/C flights. I may stop by Lincoln and say hi anyway. Someone there also has a Comanche I'm REALLY interested in seeing.
 
Ghery said:
Sporty's sells a nice little Cessna stall horn checker that you place over the hole, hold in place, push and release. You'll hear the horn go off. I bought one years ago as a student pilot and it works great. Yeah, probably over priced, but I test the stall warning while standing on the ground and not have to look like I'm kissing the wing. :D
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I saw that. I think I have an old camera lens puffer, wonder if that will work. I'll try it next time I'm at the hangar.
 
DaleB said:
It's on my to-do list. BUT... in answer to this and Denverpilot's mini-rant :) I think both the 172 and the PA-28 are placarded with a prohibition against intentional spins. I know every Cherokee I've flown has been. I'd have to double check, but I think the 172 is also. So I'd have to go find yet another instructor and airplane for that. I've seen a Traumahawk at the field, but only once.
Click to expand...


Couple things, the first two turns are not a spin, once you understand spins in any plane they're all the same. To me spin training should be on the "done" list by solo. It's such a bugaboo issue that it hinders learning how to land properly.
 
Henning said:
Couple things, the first two turns are not a spin, once you understand spins in any plane they're all the same. To me spin training should be on the "done" list by solo. It's such a bugaboo issue that it hinders learning how to land properly.
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Except recovery is not generic. Some airframes have different recovery procedures and even PARE isn't a cure all.
 
denverpilot said:
Isn't it on the pre-flight checklist to test it?

Do you have the flapper switch type or the slot/hole in the left leading edge that requires suction to set it off?

The former is easy to test. Master on, go flip it up.

The latter can also be tested, but I'm leery to describe "gentle suction" here in this crowd. :rofl:
Click to expand...

I sucked on the Cessna wing last weekend just because I could not remember when I last did that. Didn't take much. And, so far, the tests are coming back negative (knock on wood). :D
 
Jaybird180 said:
Except recovery is not generic. Some airframes have different recovery procedures and even PARE isn't a cure all.
Click to expand...


Yep, and once you learn about spins and the various recovery techniques you'll be comfortable in your ability to recover from the incipient entry stage before the spin develops allowing you to comfortably operate at the bottom of the envelope where you should be for landings rather than staying 15-20knts hot on final until the flare to avoid a spin.
 
This morning I put an hour on the Hobbs, just flying the pattern. There was a pretty good little crosswind... Mr. Garmin said my ground speed on base leg was under 40 MPH. I did pretty well, got over the shake-up I had the other day when the winds were what I can only characterize as treacherous. I decided to crab in today, straightening it out over the numbers. That worked well. Most of my landings this morning would have been good soft field landings, and the takeoffs would have been good soft field takeoffs as well... airborne at around 65 or so, accelerated to 80 a couple of feet off the runway before climbing out.

So I get back to the ramp for gas, and see a guy coming out toward the plane... sure enough, my first ramp check. He introduces himself. I ask him if you need any kind of license or anything to fly one of these, it took me a couple of tries to figure out all the little dials and stuff. :) He said no, I didn't HAVE to have a license, it would just increase his paperwork load for the day. Anyway, the ramp check was pretty uneventful. He asked if I'd done a W&B before the flight, I said yes, I have a spreadsheet I use (and have checked it against the POH) and with either me or me and my instructor we're well within the envelope. He asked if it was my airplane, I said no, it's a club plane. So how do I know if the inspection is good? Well, all the logs are right here... Oops. Not that I don't want anyone to see the logs, but I do have to get to work eventually. So he looked at the airframe log, did a walk around, said the front tire was unairworthy due to cracks in the tread area. Thanks, have a nice day, I put the plane away and emailed the club maintenance guy.
 
DaleB said:
This morning I put an hour on the Hobbs, just flying the pattern. There was a pretty good little crosswind... Mr. Garmin said my ground speed on base leg was under 40 MPH. I did pretty well, got over the shake-up I had the other day when the winds were what I can only characterize as treacherous. I decided to crab in today, straightening it out over the numbers. That worked well. Most of my landings this morning would have been good soft field landings, and the takeoffs would have been good soft field takeoffs as well... airborne at around 65 or so, accelerated to 80 a couple of feet off the runway before climbing out.

So I get back to the ramp for gas, and see a guy coming out toward the plane... sure enough, my first ramp check. He introduces himself. I ask him if you need any kind of license or anything to fly one of these, it took me a couple of tries to figure out all the little dials and stuff. :) He said no, I didn't HAVE to have a license, it would just increase his paperwork load for the day. Anyway, the ramp check was pretty uneventful. He asked if I'd done a W&B before the flight, I said yes, I have a spreadsheet I use (and have checked it against the POH) and with either me or me and my instructor we're well within the envelope. He asked if it was my airplane, I said no, it's a club plane. So how do I know if the inspection is good? Well, all the logs are right here... Oops. Not that I don't want anyone to see the logs, but I do have to get to work eventually. So he looked at the airframe log, did a walk around, said the front tire was unairworthy due to cracks in the tread area. Thanks, have a nice day, I put the plane away and emailed the club maintenance guy.
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Unairworthy? So nobody can fly the plane until they replace the tire or . . .?
 
That's what I'm trying to find out. The tire will be replaced tomorrow, but I'm asking the club's maintenance guy...

What I don't know, though, is whether the FSDO guy saying the tire is un-airworthy means that legally the plane can't be flown without a ferry permit or something. In other words... after he told me that, would I have been OK to take off again, had I not been headed for the hangar anyway?
 
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