B58 Baron N2063G fatal crash 4/13/2026 Knoxville, TN (KDKX)

mandm said:
Tbh, I’m a bit afraid to do my spin training and my goal is to get my CFI this year. After the incident last year, I don’t even want to do stalls. I will go to a higher altitude for sure.
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As someone who had to do spin training as a pre-solo student pilot (in Canada, in the mid 1990's), I find this comment very intriguing. I would like to think that every pilot is comfortable operating their airplane near all edges of the normal envelope, and especially instructors.
 
sarangan said:
... I would like to think that every pilot is comfortable operating their airplane near all edges of the normal envelope, and especially instructors.
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If you change the word "comfortable" to competent, I completely agree. Perhaps a little discomfort, while operating near the edge of the envelope, is a good thing.
 
A good example of the diminishments in skill and learning can be found in K-12 schools. Students are given instruction that intentionally avoid the rigors of study about subjects like Algebra and Algebra II. Certain groups of "activists" assert that these subjects are inherently biased to make students fail, and lobby for their removal from curriculum.

The results of these actions produce students that cannot read or perform basic math skills, placing them at a lifelong disadvantage.

Similarly, producing pilots that cannot perform maneuvers which might save their lives puts them at mortal risk. It apparently surprises a set of people that flying can present dangers, and that instruction and recurrent training in certain areas will save lives. Certainly it's tragic that accidents in training occasionally take lives.

About 14,000 individuals receive SEL certificates every year. I don't know how many students and instructors die in training accidents, but from what I can gather the number isn't significant. A student that avoids the rigors of training for stall series, engine failure, and other procedures on the edge of the envelope will have no recourse when they're confronted with those situations.
 
Roger Wilco said:
If you change the word "comfortable" to competent, I completely agree. Perhaps a little discomfort, while operating near the edge of the envelope, is a good thing.
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Totally agree - a little discomfort is not a bad thing. But "afraid" (what the original posted stated), is what I was responding to.
 
3393RP said:
A good example of the diminishments in skill and learning can be found in K-12 schools. Students are given instruction that intentionally avoid the rigors of study about subjects like Algebra and Algebra II. Certain groups of "activists" assert that these subjects are inherently biased to make students fail, and lobby for their removal from curriculum.

The results of these actions produce students that cannot read or perform basic math skills, placing them at a lifelong disadvantage.

Similarly, producing pilots that cannot perform maneuvers which might save their lives puts them at mortal risk. It apparently surprises a set of people that flying can present dangers, and that instruction and recurrent training in certain areas will save lives. Certainly it's tragic that accidents in training occasionally take lives.

About 14,000 individuals receive SEL certificates every year. I don't know how many students and instructors die in training accidents, but from what I can gather the number isn't significant. A student that avoids the rigors of training for stall series, engine failure, and other procedures on the edge of the envelope will have no recourse when they're confronted with those situations.
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I think part of this is coming from how career paths are presented to them. Many student pilots are looking for the straight line to the left seat of an airline cockpit, so doing stalls and spins in a Cessna 172 is seen as a distraction rather than important knowledge. It's not unlike freshman college students looking to become a CEO of a tech company and think calculus and circuits are mere distractions to overcome.
 
1. VMC training needs to be done somehow as it's the only way to avoid a common failure mode. Common enough that it is discussed ofter and a few crashes per year make it required.

2. Fear of stalls or spins. Find an aerobatic plane and instructor. Get 2 hours of training in the air and 1 hour of ground discussion. Fear of the unknown is common also. So get comfy and lose the fear.

3. I took my PPL flight test at 46.8 hours total. It was no cake walk, as I did it in the Citabria. After that, first thing I did was stuff my GF in the back with a chute and did loop roll spin. Then I rented a Piper 140 and filled it with people and went VFR to KSNA for dinner. No excuses, I had the nice fresh ticket and used it.
 
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Barrett50 said:
VMC training needs to be done somehow as it's the only way to avoid a common failure mode.
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Can you elaborate on that statement? What is the “common failure mode,” and how does “Vmc training” (I assume you mean the Vmc demo, but if not, please clarify) avoid it?
 
sarangan said:
I think part of this is coming from how career paths are presented to them. Many student pilots are looking for the straight line to the left seat of an airline cockpit, so doing stalls and spins in a Cessna 172 is seen as a distraction rather than important knowledge. It's not unlike freshman college students looking to become a CEO of a tech company and think calculus and circuits are mere distractions to overcome.
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Well. The problem with that line of reasoning is those basic skills are crucial in the left seat of the jet. More than the 172 in my humble opinion. If people really think the at way thy are wrong.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Well. The problem with that line of reasoning is those basic skills are crucial in the left seat of the jet. More than the 172 in my humble opinion. If people really think the at way thy are wrong.
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I've seen some FOs fly like they've never flown a plane of any kind before. It really shows how important it is to get proper instruction from day 1 as a student pilot.
 
Years ago after my 3000 AGL inadvertent stall/incipient spin (I was teaching, 240 lb pilot, Centurion) in which I had to physically injure the frozen pilot to get control, and recovered @~700 agl, I am much more vigilant. Not afraid, more vigilant.

BFR in a Baron = steel toed boot.
 
dmspilot said:
I've seen some FOs fly like they've never flown a plane of any kind before. It really shows how important it is to get proper instruction from day 1 as a student pilot.
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Sorry to read that--it certainly increases the workload for the captain. Sometime around 2015, there began a small but very real downward trend in the level of skill, knowledge, and professionalism among newly-hired F/Os who I flew with. But none of them flew like they'd never flown a plane before, and to be fair I should note that the majority were quite competent and a few were stellar.
 
bbchien said:
Years ago after my 3000 AGL inadvertent stall/incipient spin (I was teaching, 240 lb pilot, Centurion) in which I had to physically injure the frozen pilot to get control, and recovered @~700 agl, I am much more vigilant. Not afraid, more vigilant.

BFR in a Baron = steel toed boot.
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While working on my CFI rating, the former WWII B-29 pilot and high-time instructor said karate chops to the throat are the quickest way to save your butts when someone freezes up on the controls...
 
Rick A said:
While working on my CFI rating, the former WWII B-29 pilot and high-time instructor said karate chops to the throat are the quickest way to save your butts when someone freezes up on the controls...
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Backfist or elbow to the nose works too. Got that from an old retired street cop with hundreds of scraps. He said a shot to the nose or solar plexus never fails to make someone stop what they are doing.
 
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Rick A said:
While working on my CFI rating, the former WWII B-29 pilot and high-time instructor said karate chops to the throat are the quickest way to save your butts when someone freezes up on the controls...
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Gotta have space for the karate chop.

One instructor i used to know (90 lbs dripping wet?) said her bony elbow to the throat worked well for her.
 
Rick A said:
While working on my CFI rating, the former WWII B-29 pilot and high-time instructor said karate chops to the throat are the quickest way to save your butts when someone freezes up on the controls...
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I'm considering a stun gun.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t agree with him. Not even a tiny little bit.
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I was just talking to a DPE friend of mine today and he disagrees with you. He thinks the FAA needs to reevaluate the Vmc demo.

This guy was an airline pilot (retired now), runs a big flight school in the southeast US and before that flew F-4s and KC-135s. Oh, and he races his T-6 at Reno. I don't think he's adverse or unaccustomed to operating at the "ragged edge."
 
Sluggo63 said:
I was just talking to a DPE friend of mine today and he disagrees with you. He thinks the FAA needs to reevaluate the Vmc demo.

This guy was an airline pilot (retired now), runs a big flight school in the southeast US and before that flew F-4s and KC-135s. Oh, and he races his T-6 at Reno. I don't think he's adverse or unaccustomed to operating at the "ragged edge."
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I don’t agree with him either. Despite his impressive resume. The basics have to be learned at some point. I think we have to do at least some poking around in the edges during primary training. Theory only gets us so far.

Also you said he thinks the VMC demo needs to be “evaluated.” Just what did he mean? Removed? Looked at to determine if there was a better way? The statement you ascribed to him is rather vague.

Edit to add:

VMC in a twin is so basic and fundamental to flying a twin it’s, in my opinion, synonymous with demonstrating stalls in a single engine aircraft.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
VMC in a twin is so basic and fundamental to flying a twin it’s, in my opinion, synonymous with demonstrating stalls in a single engine aircraft.
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Seems like it should be in the ATP ACS if it’s that fundamental.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
Really. I’ve never stalled an airplane on any ATP check ride and I have six type ratings. Guess I should send them back.
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Technically its “stall prevention,” but I assume your type ratings have been with an airline that has their own checking program.

I should probably send my ATP back because I’ve never flown an airplane over 40,000 lbs or a simulator representing one.
 
I was surprised that during my CFI check ride, with an FAA examiner (not DPE) conducting the oral and flight review, only required me to slow down while holding altitude. While decellerating through around 10kts above stalling speed he instructed me to power up and climb out. I asked, what no stall? He responded that an imminent stall was close enough.
 
Aren't there more docile twins that struggle to do a vmc roll?

I did mine in a baron and I remember when doing those demos the instructor was not timid but was cautious stating that this particular airplane will kill you faster than a lot of other twins if we take it too far into the demo.

If that's the case, maybe reserve those demonstrations for a different class of airplane but I may also be wrong I guess it's kind of a question.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Aren't there more docile twins that struggle to do a vmc roll?

I did mine in a baron and I remember when doing those demos the instructor was not timid but was cautious stating that this particular airplane will kill you faster than a lot of other twins if we take it too far into the demo.

If that's the case, maybe reserve those demonstrations for a different class of airplane but I may also be wrong I guess it's kind of a question.
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It’s not so much a struggle to do a Vmc roll as how it develops. Most twin trainers are designed to lose lateral control gradually by running out of rudder, similar to what you would see in a Vmc demo. Barons, and a lot of higher-performance twins lose lateral control not by simply running out of rudder authority, but rather via a vertical stabilizer stall, which makes the Vmc roll much more violent.

For the record, all of the “Vmc roll” attempts I’ve personally witnessed were the more benign type, not because of the airplane, but because the pilot wasn’t using any rudder input.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
Aren't there more docile twins that struggle to do a vmc roll?

I did mine in a baron and I remember when doing those demos the instructor was not timid but was cautious stating that this particular airplane will kill you faster than a lot of other twins if we take it too far into the demo.

If that's the case, maybe reserve those demonstrations for a different class of airplane but I may also be wrong I guess it's kind of a question.
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I also did mine in a Baron. Both MEI and DPE blocked the rudder for the demo. I thought was a pretty benign maneuver with the rudder blocked.
 
MacFlier said:
I also did mine in a Baron. Both MEI and DPE blocked the rudder for the demo. I thought was a pretty benign maneuver with the rudder blocked.
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My instructor didn't block the rudder but he said you're going to recover at the first sign of a stall. That could be a buffett, a stallhorn, full rudder deflection, etc.

It was always the stallhorn.

The DPE said I want you to recover when you run out of rudder which was beyond the stall horn and I didn't like it one bit.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Technically its “stall prevention,” but I assume your type ratings have been with an airline that has their own checking program.

I should probably send my ATP back because I’ve never flown an airplane over 40,000 lbs or a simulator representing one.
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Well parse the words however you want. It’s not a stall. It’s just “hey let’s slow down a little and recover at the first indication of a stall” which happens well above stall speed in pretty much everything that’s eligible for an ATP check ride especially transport category aircraft.

If you want to have a reference for how important the fundamental learning really is just take a look at the FAA documents surrounding the requirements for extended envelope training imposed on airlines by the FAA. It’s like reading a private pilot ACS for a twin engine aircraft. Extremely basic **** like “reducing AOA is how you recover from a stall.”

So let’s circle back to this VMC thing. When done properly it’s occurring well above actual VMC. There is always sufficient margin to recover the aircraft prior to an actual VMC event. I think VMC should stay in the ACS.

The problem here is the instructor. Not the maneuver.

I think we should both keep our certificates since we earned them.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My instructor didn't block the rudder but he said you're going to recover at the first sign of a stall. That could be a buffett, a stallhorn, full rudder deflection, etc.

It was always the stallhorn.

The DPE said I want you to recover when you run out of rudder which was beyond the stall horn and I didn't like it one bit.
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I always blocked the rudder. It’s the only way to ensure there is margin. I always thought those that didn’t were nuts. Literally every document I’ve read during my spool up as a multi engine pilot recommended blocking the rudder.

Your DPE was a psychopath. Lol
 
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