Avoided Bravo like the plague last night until ...

BigBadLou

BigBadLou

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Lou
... they just cleared me in. :)

Leaving the DFW maze, I was told to stay VFR AOB 2500, then they assigned me 3500 and a vector "10 degrees right". That put me right on the edge of the next lower shelf so I was following the new assigned heading as much as I could without busting the Bravo (it was easy, the lateral border runs along a prominent hwy). Thank the Lord for precision GPS devices.

After a while, I get "proceed direct to destination". I went to read back "direct destina ... wait, that will put me into the Bravo, please advise". Without skipping a beat, the nice lady came back with "cleared through the Bravo at 3500 VFR".
I thanked her and proceeded on my merry way.

I wonder whether she was testing me or simply didn't know which way I was going. Or maybe didn't know that I have not been cleared in/through yet.

So I guess this is a:
1) lesson to stay clear of airspace until permitted to enter
2) lesson to verify clearance before blindly entering
3) question: does my radar scope tag show (to controllers) whether I have been cleared in?

Happy flying!
Lou
 
The tag has the capability to show if you've been cleared in but it's most likely not done. Just memory on the part of the controller or verbal coordination to the receiving controller.

Oh yeah, there's no alarm either for a B violation. Someone was asking that a while back.
 
Ha about the only way to get cleared into the C90 Bravo is to fruck up, and not descend in tome for the next shelf while on FF. Buddy of mine was cleared into the Bravo only to GTFO without violating any regs :D
 
I just don't understand the fear of Bravo. Really. I don't. It's actually easy because they tell you exactly what to do.
 
Bravo is simple your either cleared in or you avoid it. Bravo is usually quite busy,so they like to keep us slow little guys away,if it doesn't cause to much of a hassle for you.
 
Never understood why people freak out about Bravo airspace. If you wonder in there without clearance yeah that's a big deal, but most controllers are more than happy to help you out with a route through. Even super busy airspace like the NYC bravo with 3 major airports is usually easy to get clearance though for VFR traffic. Just ask. The worst that happens is they say no. My last time though the NYC bravo I didn't even ask. Was on with NY TRACON for flight following and during a break in transmissions the controller asked my intended route. Gave one skirting outside the Bravo and he came back with "no need for that, proceed direct destination, maintain 3500ft, cleared into the Class Bravo airspace"
 
Definitely depends where you're located. I've been denied once from NY in my 7 years of flying in the airspace. Other places won't let you through.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Never understood why people freak out about Bravo airspace. If you wonder in there without clearance yeah that's a big deal, but most controllers are more than happy to help you out with a route through. Even super busy airspace like the NYC bravo with 3 major airports is usually easy to get clearance though for VFR traffic. Just ask. The worst that happens is they say no. My last time though the NYC bravo I didn't even ask. Was on with NY TRACON for flight following and during a break in transmissions the controller asked my intended route. Gave one skirting outside the Bravo and he came back with "no need for that, proceed direct destination, maintain 3500ft, cleared into the Class Bravo airspace"
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Agreed, the controllers are regular people and are generally polite and extraordinarily helpful. Usually when I take off from Caldwell on my way to Brookhaven they ask me what route I'd like and I just say whatever gets me there quickest, then they throw me whichever route is easiest for them and quickest for me.

jordane93 said:
Definitely depends where you're located. I've been denied once from NY in my 7 years of flying in the airspace. Other places won't let you through.
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That kind of applies in NY as well occasionally, or when you're asking for flight following. I know there's one super cranky controller that covers the sector near Danbury that just doesn't like answering radio calls for small planes for flight following.
 
For clarification, I did not post to imply any fear of Bravo, just to share my experience and ask a question. Do I want to bust an airspace? No. Do I take reasonable precautions? Sure. Do I go coockoo over it? Nope.

I too agree, too much ado about nothing when it comes to any airspace. Follow regs and instructions, don't be a d*ck and it'll all be good.
One common trait I see in many pilots is they blindly and quietly avoid issues and follow controller instructions without questioning. I keep trying to get a point across to those that if you don't ask, you can't expect what you quietly expect. And I usually prove it to them by asking the controller and receiving a reply in the tone of "no problem, cleared into the Bravo", etc.

Just as an example for those who don't see where I'm going with this: you are given a restriction and it is taking you away from your course and you are understandably growing unhappy. You can either silently suffer and wait for the controller to remember or you can very politely ask something like "when could we expect ...?" or "is there any chance we could ...?" or maybe "could we pretty pretty please ...?"
And of course there's "unable". Approaching a wall of clouds with a specific assigned altitude (to keep me below the other Bravo traffic), I managed to squeeze in ... not a request ... but a polite demand: "must descend to remain VFR, we need at least 2500". It was meant with a professional reply "AOA 2000". Problem solved.

So kids, don't be afraid of Bravo, it's just another sandbox. If it is controlled by bullies, be nice to the bullies, bring them a donut once in a while, they'll let you play. LOL
(Man, how many Margaritas have I had today????? Oh chute. Somebody please pull the red handle on this reply ... like now ... )
 
There are published routes through LAX. And woe to those who would deviate from those published routes. Pretty sure if you asked to transition the Bravo anywhere other than along those routes, you're getting denied.
 
ircphoenix said:
There are published routes through LAX. And woe to those who would deviate from those published routes. Pretty sure if you asked to transition the Bravo anywhere other than along those routes, you're getting denied.
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That is the thing about Bravo...you typically just have to know and understand what you options are before knocking on their door. LAX as you pointed out has 5 published routes you can transition the Bravo VFR...but you have to know them and learn them ahead of time. SFO has several routes that are not published, but you can get through usually without any problems if you know where to go that will stay outta their way. It is the pilots that arrive unprepared that I hear shooed away. I will take flying THROUGH a bravo vs dodging around any day of the week!


...and yes ALWAYS verify if you are not sure. If a controller says "turn 10 degrees west" and it puts you on a heading in to Bravo, that is NOT a clearance to enter. It is still on you if you bust. Some may argue that the instruction "proceed direct to" COULD be your "clearance" and you may win that on in a court of law, but the controllers are supposed to issue a "Cleared in Bravo" or "Cleared as requested" since a VFR instruction does not constitute a "clearance" like IFR
 
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I was pretty tense about my first voyage into DFW Bravo last year, but it was pretty seamless and I've blasted thru it several times since...with clearance of course!
 
JCranford said:
I was pretty tense about my first voyage into DFW Bravo last year, but it was pretty seamless and I've blasted thru it several times since...with clearance of course!
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I think the DFW Bravo is one of the friendlier ones. Cool guys, cool ladies, cool voices. Busy frequency but well controlled. DFW Bravo is nice. I ain't skeered. :)
 
Supposed to do my first bravo on 5/1 with my long XC for IFR training. When asked what airport I wanted to fly to I said KFXE and they said why. I said it's a farther drive from where we are staying but avoids KFLL airspace. They said hogwash. We are going to KFLL. Will be my first class B experience other then playing dodgeball with Atlanta airspace. Can't wait!!! Although there is no way I can hit the 165 speeds they are probably looking for, I have seen many Cessna 182s fly in and out so I am hooping it is no factor.
 
mulligan said:
Supposed to do my first bravo on 5/1 with my long XC for IFR training. When asked what airport I wanted to fly to I said KFXE and they said why. I said it's a farther drive from where we are staying but avoids KFLL airspace. They said hogwash. We are going to KFLL. Will be my first class B experience other then playing dodgeball with Atlanta airspace. Can't wait!!! Although there is no way I can hit the 165 speeds they are probably looking for, I have seen many Cessna 182s fly in and out so I am hooping it is no factor.
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I'm pretty sure FLL is Class C.
 
ircphoenix said:
There are published routes through LAX. And woe to those who would deviate from those published routes. Pretty sure if you asked to transition the Bravo anywhere other than along those routes, you're getting denied.
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I used to think the same until last December when I got this from about 4 miles north of Fullerton:

APP: 5CY, are you familiar with the area?
5CY: Affirmative, 5CY
APP: Skylane 5CY, clear direct Dodgers Stadium, climb and maintain 3,000. Cleared into Class Bravo.
Me: Jaw dragging on floor while dialing VPLDS on the GPS... (I was expecting to go under/around Class B, just like I'd done dozens of times before.)

Granted, I didn't ask, so the premise of the quote may still be valid, but I guess when the stars (and Boeings and Airbuses) align, it is possible.

Photo evidence attached.
 

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Jeff Oslick said:
I used to think the same until last December when I got this from about 4 miles north of Fullerton:

APP: 5CY, are you familiar with the area?
5CY: Affirmative, 5CY
APP: Skylane 5CY, clear direct Dodgers Stadium, climb and maintain 3,000. Cleared into Class Bravo.
Me: Jaw dragging on floor while dialing VPLDS on the GPS... (I was expecting to go under/around Class B, just like I'd done dozens of times before.)

Granted, I didn't ask, so the premise of the quote may still be valid, but I guess when the stars (and Boeings and Airbuses) align, it is possible.

Photo evidence attached.
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Wwwwwwooooowwww. Direct to Chavez Ravine from KFUL. I know they're a little more relaxed once you're north of the approach path so pleasure planes can tool around the Hollywood sign etc but cutting across like that? Color me shocked.
 
ircphoenix said:
There are published routes through LAX. And woe to those who would deviate from those published routes. Pretty sure if you asked to transition the Bravo anywhere other than along those routes, you're getting denied.
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Nope. I got cleared for a VFR descent, own nav, south of LAX VOR while transitioning the coastal route. SoCal knew I was headed for KTOA and helped out, without any request from me beyond "Coastal Transition."

I've gotten instant B clearance while on a VFR practice approach to Oakland, where Tower needed me to go missed early to make room for a Medevac. I've even gotten a clearance once for a traffic call (recommended action was a climb, and I was close below a B floor).

All trivial, or nearly so. IMO, it's considerably easier to transition B than to dodge it.
 
BigBadLou said:
... they just cleared me in. :)
.......... then they assigned me 3500 and a vector "10 degrees right".............

After a while, I get "proceed direct to destination"........

Happy flying!
Lou
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Those are "clearances"

Controllers procedures require them to say "cleared through/to enter/out of bravo airspace" and we are used to hearing it all the time. But those "magic words" are not a requirement to enter the bravo. A clearance is a requirement. Turn 10 degrees right and maintain 3500 is a clearance. Priced direct to.... Is a clearance. EDIT: I'm probably wrong about this. See OP's response with a FAA link to follow.
 
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Number one way to avoid getting the dreaded "Stay clear of the class bravo..." also is to confidently and concisely get to the point. I've heard sooooooo many pilots in the NY Bravo try to get a bravo clearance stuttering and unable to get the point across that the controller just doesn't have the time or patience to deal with it.
 
luvflyin said:
Those are "clearances"

Controllers procedures require them to say "cleared through/to enter/out of bravo airspace" and we are used to hearing it all the time. But those "magic words" are not a requirement to enter the bravo. A clearance is a requirement. Turn 10 degrees right and maintain 3500 is a clearance. Priced direct to.... Is a clearance.
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Negative, GhostRider, the pattern is full.

The implicit clearance is a myth. Careful.

Please refer to the letter of interpretation from 2010: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...10/doremire - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
 
Didn't read all responses so excuse the possible repeat.
But, and I don't think this happened here, if you are cleared into the B then exit the B, you need a new clearance into the B.
So, if you are on the border and exit by a small margin, I would not turn back in without clearance.
 
Maciej said:
Number one way to avoid getting the dreaded "Stay clear of the class bravo..." also is to confidently and concisely get to the point. I've heard sooooooo many pilots in the NY Bravo try to get a bravo clearance stuttering and unable to get the point across that the controller just doesn't have the time or patience to deal with it.
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Or you get the long drawn out, explaining everything call from the pilot, "NY Approach, Cessna 12345, 7 miles to the south, in a blue and white plane, wearing a red shirt, over McDonald's, I would like to go through the bravo at 3500 ft preferably going 090' Thats would give me the best tailwind, blah, blah, blah, blah.

They usually don't get the bravo clearance. And they wonder why.
 
TommyG said:
Or you get the long drawn out, explaining everything call from the pilot, "NY Approach, Cessna 12345, 7 miles to the south, in a blue and white plane, wearing a red shirt, over McDonald's, I would like to go through the bravo at 3500 ft preferably going 090' Thats would give me the best tailwind, blah, blah, blah, blah.

They usually don't get the bravo clearance. And they wonder why.
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LOL ah yeah love those.
 
Sarasota has actually one of the best collection of airspaces here in FL to learn in.

KSRQ is a Charlie with a Bravo shelf just north, and there are a few Deltas and under the Bravo. We also have controlled and uncontrolled fields under the Bravo which is great practice for students.

Also, GA aircraft are usually cleared in to the Tampa Bravo, with a few minor exceptions. If you know what you're doing they will almost always accommodate you. Anywhere near the Tampa airport is usually a no-go, unless you're on a flight plan. One of the local DPEs took a student up to KTPA for a PPL checkride in a 162 Skycatcher for a touch and go..hehe..that would have been awesome.

@BigBadLou glad you finally got some Bravo experience. Personally I love flying in that airspace, I get to watch all the jets come and go while receiving above average separation services and (in most cases) save some time on my flight as opposed to going the long way around.

I've heard a lot of students and foreign pilots comment that the airspace around here is complex, but it's really not. You just have to pay a bit more attention.
 
BigBadLou said:
Negative, GhostRider, the pattern is full.

The implicit clearance is a myth. Careful.

Please refer to the letter of interpretation from 2010: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/doremire - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
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Good find, Lou..and that's the way I've always understood it. ATC can give you a heading and altitude, but if it's ALSO going to take you into the Bravo airspace they have to include the clearance.
 
Caramon13 said:
Sarasota has actually one of the best collection of airspaces here in FL to learn in.

KSRQ is a Charlie with a Bravo shelf just north, and there are a few Deltas and under the Bravo. We also have controlled and uncontrolled fields under the Bravo which is great practice for students.

Also, GA aircraft are usually cleared in to the Tampa Bravo, with a few minor exceptions. If you know what you're doing they will almost always accommodate you. Anywhere near the Tampa airport is usually a no-go, unless you're on a flight plan. One of the local DPEs took a student up to KTPA for a PPL checkride in a 162 Skycatcher for a touch and go..hehe..that would have been awesome.

@BigBadLou glad you finally got some Bravo experience. Personally I love flying in that airspace, I get to watch all the jets come and go while receiving above average separation services and (in most cases) save some time on my flight as opposed to going the long way around.

I've heard a lot of students and foreign pilots comment that the airspace around here is complex, but it's really not. You just have to pay a bit more attention.
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Much like Sarasota, I genuinely think that the New Jersey/New York/Connecticut area is hands down the best area to train pilots in. Within an hour of flight time from my home airport KCDW I had eight different Class Deltas, three Class Charlies, three Class Bravos, and about sixteen or seventeen uncontrolled fields I had the opportunity to visit if I wanted to that all included critical thinking with regard to how to get from field to field. From the beginning I was taught not to be afraid of using the radios and not to be shy and how to quickly and concisely handle communication. And with all of that commotion I still had plenty of practice areas available to me that allowed me to focus on maneuvers and core training.

Having said all of that, I just landed from a quick flight where I quickly picked up bravo clearance from Newark Tower to cut through their airspace to get back to Caldwell a little bit quicker after dealing with a 40kt headwind at 1500' slowing my little bugsmasher down to 85kts groundspeed lol

NYTAC.png
 
MikeELP said:
Good find, Lou..and that's the way I've always understood it. ATC can give you a heading and altitude, but if it's ALSO going to take you into the Bravo airspace they have to include the clearance.
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I cannot take credit for the find. (wait, yes I can :D ) I searched here and found a thread with this link so I thought I'd post it again. Duplication is not a bad idea when it comes to "well unknown" information.
Now go fly, somebody! We are at OVC004 and 1SM here. :( We were at 1/2SM an hour earlier.
 
There are lots of places with good airspace practice. Pretty much anything near a Class B is going to have a lot of handoffs and boundaries to manage.
 
BigBadLou said:
I cannot take credit for the find. (wait, yes I can :D ) I searched here and found a thread with this link so I thought I'd post it again. Duplication is not a bad idea when it comes to "well unknown" information.
Now go fly, somebody! We are at OVC004 and 1SM here. :( We were at 1/2SM an hour earlier.
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The way the rain has been falling in TX lately, you might be better off flying an seaplane. Takeoff from the runway with gear and land on the same runway an hour later with the floats...
 
Caramon13 said:
The way the rain has been falling in TX lately, you might be better off flying an seaplane. Takeoff from the runway with gear and land on the same runway an hour later with the floats...
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Might happen, don't be surprised. A friend of mine has a nice amphib. His rwy doesn't flood but if ours does, we might fly it in just for S&G. I really want to hear the commotion on the CTAF:
"You can't land here, the rwy is closed due to flooding"
"I can see the rwy markings under the water perfectly fine"
"You don't understand, there are THREE FEET OF WATER ON THE RUNWAY!"
"And you don't understand that I just need one foot". :D
 
Going south out of OSH the ORD controller was doing everything to not let us enter. When he asked me my route I said "my GPS says anything grater than 1-9-5 keeps me clear of Bravo" He came back with "do that then." I replied "roger, doing that."
 
TommyG said:
Or you get the long drawn out, explaining everything call from the pilot, "NY Approach, Cessna 12345, 7 miles to the south, in a blue and white plane, wearing a red shirt, over McDonald's, I would like to go through the bravo at 3500 ft preferably going 090' Thats would give me the best tailwind, blah, blah, blah, blah.

They usually don't get the bravo clearance. And they wonder why.
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Most controllers LOVE hearing what shirt I've elected to wear, and hope that they made the correct decision and nearly match me:p

A few years ago flying by KSAT one of the controllers was going nuts talking with a guy with a Russian accent. The controller was trying to provide a clearance to land, and requested his position no less than seven times. Finally, the controller said "Squawk 4741 and ident", spotted him on scope and then responded with "Cessna xxx 20 miles NW of the field, remain clear of the Class C airspace".
 
BigBadLou said:
Negative, GhostRider, the pattern is full.

The implicit clearance is a myth. Careful.

Please refer to the letter of interpretation from 2010: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/doremire - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
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I stand corrected. The cat in the long black robe with the big wooden hammer has spoken. I gotta say though, I think she speak with forked tongue. I am having a real hard time getting my head wrapped around "if the pilot only recieved the vector for traffic from ATC, the pilot did not recieve a clearance or instruction from ATC." This pilot recieved a vector and an altitude assignment. That's not an instruction???

"So why did you not fly the heading and altititude ATC assigned you."
"Well, you see your Honor, I don't really have to because that is not really an ATC instruction."

Anyway, I see getting a specific "into the Bravo" clearance is important. My bad for implying otherwise.
 
ircphoenix said:
There are published routes through LAX. And woe to those who would deviate from those published routes. Pretty sure if you asked to transition the Bravo anywhere other than along those routes, you're getting denied.
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I have been surprised on the last year or so in the LA basin. I was prepared to do my regular VFR run in the area and was cleared 4 times into the Bravo with out asking. Maybe they are loosening up a bit.
 
Luvrv8 said:
I have been surprised on the last year or so in the LA basin. I was prepared to do my regular VFR run in the area and was cleared 4 times into the Bravo with out asking. Maybe they are loosening up a bit.
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Really? Cleared into the Bravo other than via published routes? May I ask what you were doing?
 
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