avionics upgrade

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by jaysuwan, Dec 27, 2018.

Tags:
  1. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    Hi guys, I need some advice&suggestion on avionics upgrades here. I got a '67 cherokee140/160 14v system. I just recently got my ppl and moving foward towards my ir. So now's the time to dump some money into my baby.

    So the goal is to make this into an ifr capable planes. I was thinking about doing the bare minimum without any gps at first but I want to see if it would make sense to do it with.

    Here's my panel https://imgur.com/a/AYCsX6m

    So a bunch of things are coming out so I'm doing pretty much the whole stacks.
    So far this is what I have.
    - Audio replace with gma340
    - Narco 12A is not working so its coming out.
    - Replacing the glideslope for MX12
    - adsb probably go with the stratus and will do a mount for the adsb in on the front.
    - ADF is inop so it's coming out.
    - marker beacon will probably come out unlesss you guys think I should keep it.

    That's what I got so far.
    So my question is should I stick with 2 VOR/GS and replace the narco with something like kx155 or another mx12?
    Or should I get a 430W or 530W or I was looking at GPS500W? then get a GTR200 so I have a second com?

    What do you guys think? should I change anything on my list? or anything else you think I should add?

    The budget is not really set. I'm trying to make this as low as I can without putting crappy out of dated stuff in it.

    Thanks for every input in advancce
     
  2. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,310
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    I have a really cheap panel that works well and all I need but I am not a IFR pilot. Here is a before and after pic. Just added a 696 and took out the old useless junk.
    My goal is always to not be upside down on a plane. Some folks put $50,000 worth of avionics in a $20,000 plane. panel 172 2.JPG panel 172.jpg
     
  3. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,310
    Location:
    Brenham Tx
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pigpen
    That upgrade above cost me $1,000.. That includes the used 696 and all the labor at the avionics shop.
     
  4. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    That's my concern too. Trying to ffind the right balance between too much and too little. I won't be trying to put g1000 in there that's for sure. But at the same time this plane will stay with me for quite a while so I'd like to put something in that would be practical for my mission, which would be 1. ifr training 2. XC around that country at some point. So I don't want to put just the bare minimum and then have to go through the labor cost the 2nd time again when I decide that it's not enough or I shoulda got more. I was going to do the
    aera 660 at first new and all that would cost me almost $1,000 with the panel mount before labor, so i figured why not put that 1,000 towards something I can use for ifr too, if it's not gonna end up cost me an arm and leg of course.
     
  5. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    6,899
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    The Cherokee 140 makes a fine IFR trainer, but not a very capable platform for doing a lot of actual cross-country IFR (unless you are in Arizona and hardly ever experience IMC).

    I would sell this one and find one already equipped as close to the way you want. But if you are determined to spend money on it I would keep that distinction in mind.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    arkvet and CC268 like this.
  6. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    8,659
    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    Interesting take, because I have a 150 horse Cessna 177 that I will have dual G5s, GTN 650 and GTX-345 with GPSS through a Brittain wing lever, being a flat lander flying from airports around 1500 MSL or lower 98% of the time it will be a fine IFR ship. That being said, no kids or associated extra baggage to haul either. Its wet around here, 800 to 1200 foot ceilings are common all spring. That doesn't include the many days where VFR on top would have been great or the morning fog prevents launch under VFR.
     
  7. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    652
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    We just put in 2 King KX155, indicators, and an audio panel. The only mistake we made was we should have put in GPS instead of the 2nd nav/comm. In my opinion it doesn't have to be a $16,000 GTN650. There are lots of $2000 GPS's on ebay that would work fine for the way I fly. If I flew for a living I'd want a lot nicer setup, but in my case, if the weather is that bad, I'll stay on the ground.
     
  8. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    6,899
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    You have one of the original 1968 Cardinals? Neat!

    I suppose it also depends on what ones definition is for "cross-country". To me it's crossing multiple weather regions and, often, types of terrain.

    I'd be more inclined to spend the money on a 177, any 177, than a low hp Cherokee, and this is coming from someone who has owned four Cherokees - 160, 180, Arrow and Dakota. And I loved owning and flying every one of them. And I still admire owners who take pride in their nicer-than-mine examples.

    Your plane has a measurably higher aspect ratio wing than a Cherokee (9% more wing area, 18% more wingspan). With their "fat", short wing the low hp Hershey-bar Cherokees are "altitude challenged" (which is one reason the 235/Dakotas command such a price premium). Not a big issue in VFR, but does restrict options to deal with weather and turbulence in IMC. I can't imagine many things less appealing than 100 knots TAS in the soup for hours on end and being unable to climb out of it. A low hp trainer Cherokee is just a less capable platform compared to yours. And I would bet anyone regularly flying lots of miles in IMC in a low hp Cherokee will start looking to upgrade to a more capable airplane.

    Besides, a well equipped Cardinal is a rarer plane than a well equipped Cherokee. I didn't tell him not to do it. Like some others on this thread, I just told him to try to avoid getting carried away (or buy a Cherokee from someone else who already did). ;)
     
  9. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    13,636
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    How long are you going to keep the plane,a nice used kx155 with nav head and a panel mount 696,stratus adsb.
     
  10. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,106
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chemgeek
    Where do you plan on flying IFR when you get your rating? Many smaller airports have only GPS approaches, and many existing VOR approaches will disappear in the next 2-10 years as VORs are decommissioned. If you are keeping this plane it would be better in the long run to invest in some sort of WAAS GPS than multiple nav/coms. There is also significant benefit in training for the IR with IFR GPS.

    Not the answer most want to hear but GPS is the reality of much IFR flying in non metro environments. VFR GPS won't get you GPS approaches. It's a tough decision whether to equip a plane or trade up to a plane with a more appropriate panel. I bit the bullet a decade ago when it was clear that VOR and ADF approaches were going the way of the dodo at our and other small airports. But we have lovely LPV approaches with 250-350 foot DAs.
     
  11. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    I usually get notification to my email when someone reply to the post but for some reason I didn't see so I thought this post was dead for a while.

    So, my plane being 160hp is not so bad. I flew her back from tennesse to KLGB and climbed to 120FL at one point in august which was quite warm(althought she didn't really want to climb after 10,000MSL). That being said I am not sure where this will take me yet but hopefully I would get to see the country in this little plane once I get all my ratings done. I'm not going to plan to be flying in the soup, and especially not for that long, if I can avoid it. After thinking about it I think I will probably keep this for at least the next 3-5 years.

    So far I already ordered GMA345, stratus adsb, and panel mount aera660( i love the IPAD but it keep overheating on me and having cable dangling in the cockpit is soooo annoying). I also bought a used kx155 with s and ki204 but got no respond when I put it on the bench today. So I started looking into SL30 and also saw a few GNS480 aroun4-5k.

    What do you guys think about getting the 480(ill try to get WAAS if I can). Good thing about it is that it's about a little more than half the price of 430w which is nuts. The only concern I have about it is that garmin will stop supporting it effective 6/30/19 https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviati...sory-1874-gns-480-cnx-80-end-of-service-life/
    If this is the case is it still worth risking getting it? If not should I do the SL30 or stick with the KX155?
     
  12. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    Here's my panel in case you guys didn't see 42596432_279006892715267_4522576072784478208_n (1) (1).jpg
     
  13. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6,737
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Three Steps:
    1) remove your ADF indicator and ADF
    2) Install this: https://www.valavionics.com/ins-429.html
    2) go fly

    You'll have your precision approaches, two backups for LOC/VOR, you already have DME.

    Your scan will be a bit quirky, but there's not much you can do about that.
     
  14. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    I am planning on removing all the adf related stuff anyway. I was actually looking at Val's stuff but I thought I can't use it since it's not TSO. If I go this route I'd still need to get a com unit and the VOR I have 1 is not working(not sure if it's because of the nav/com being down or not) and the other one is like 30 degree off.
     
  15. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6,737
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    That TSO status was news to me.

    Second shot: Get an SL-30 to solve your nav/com and put a GI-106B where the ADF indicator is. Then if you want to get fancy or you find a great deal on a GPS navigator your CDI is ready for it. Probably ~5k plus labor.
     
  16. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    in that case. do you think 480w would be a good option considering garmin will stop supporting it in less than half a year? if it is i would jist skip the sl30 since 480 is a gps/nav/com then get indicator for it
     
  17. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6,737
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    I'll not say anything negative about the 480 (they are all WAAS). There are plenty that subscribe to the "end of life" philosophy.

    How much panel you looking to put into ~$35,000 plane? That's not a negative comment, it's just a bit of reality.
     
  18. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    that's a tough question that i have yet be able to answer. so im trying not to go nuts on this upgrade. that is why i ruled out the 430 and anything higher since they are quite expensive. on the other hand i still would like to be able to do gps approach if i could do it with reasonable$$$, hence the 480. just concern about the garmin support that is all.
     
  19. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    2,602
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    Even an old gps trumps a second VOR/GS. Put one good nav/com with CDI/GS and an old kln90 or 94 gps. A lot of people with scoff at the idea of putting an out of date unsupported gps in your plane but hear me out. This isn't an airplane that is going to be doing hard IFR work so a basic ifr approved GPS is plenty. You don't need a moving map as almost every pilot now has an Ipad with foreflight or the likes. Yes a 430W is a much more advanced GPS compared to the old king units but in my opinion they are seriously over priced on the used market. Most good units are going for 7.5k complete and for 2.5k more you can get a current supported model from Avidyne. The old King units are simple to use and last for ever. If the screen does die you can buy 5 more of them for parts before you get to the price of a 430W. The 430W isn't bulletproof either so if it's screen dies it will cost a pretty penny to fix or replace.

    The value of your plane is only going to increase a few grand with a GPS, if that. Wouldn't you rather invest 3k to gain 1.5k in value versus investing 9k to gain 2k in value?
     
  20. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    I hear you, that's why I'm not even going to get close to 430. the unit alone is already over the top then I have labor too. I keep hearing people telling me don't do old gps so I guess I didn't really look into it. So If I were to go that route, looking at the price of kln94, would it be better if I go with 300xl? this way I get the com too.
     
  21. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    2,602
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    I don’t know much about the Older Garmin units. I only recommended the older king products because that’s what I have and you see a ton of them for sale dirt cheap.
     
  22. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    4,593
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    My goal has always been to be upside down on a plane, but I’ve only done it a few times so far.

    Seriously though, if I had 4 planes I’d feel the same way, but with only one that I plan on flying long distances in, I want to make it nice, which means I’ll end up upside down pretty quickly.
     
  23. bradg33

    bradg33 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,506
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Esquire99
    IMO, adding an older unsupported GPS only makes sense if you're not paying (much) labor to install it. In other words, if you're doing it yourself. Paying full shop rate to install an old non-WAAS GPS is economically foolish. I self-installed (w/ A&P sign-off) a used GX50 a little less than 2 years ago. I had maybe $2500 into the entire project. 2 months ago, Garmin announced the end of database support for that unit, effectively killing it for IFR use. Fortunately, I was only out $2500; I'd have been much more ****ed if I'd paid a shop several thousand in labor to put it in for me.

    I'm just finishing an "economy" panel upgrade in my airplane. I went with a new audio panel (PS Engineering 8000BT), a Garmin GTN625 (GPS-only), a Garmin GTR200 comm, a GTX335, a Flightstream 210 and a G5 HSI. I retained a Narco MK12D that was already in the airplane and the associated VOR/ILS indicator. All-in, I spent a little more than $16k, and installed it all myself w/ A&P supervision using the Approach Fast Stack system. If you're handy, I highly recommend the Fast Stack system. Even if you're paying a shop to do the work, I'd recommending directing them to use the Fast Stack setup for future upgradeability.
     
    arkvet and CC268 like this.
  24. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    5,524
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    Yea I'd agree. My Cherokee 140 was great for my IR training and is just fine for maintaining currency, but it isn't great for actual IFR flying. MEAs are too high and climb performance just isn't great (although in the winter it isn't all that bad).

    If I lived somewhere further east then I might think differently.
     
  25. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    6,592
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2

    Sadly, I agree. :(
     
    CC268 likes this.
  26. iflyvfr

    iflyvfr Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,648
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    You might read this interesting page from their site about TSO approvals: https://www.valavionics.com/installation-in-type-certificated-aircraft.html
     
  27. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    6,592
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    I have a VAL 429 INS in my Cherokee. I trust WeirdJim because he stated two things: one, it was good stuff and two and most importantly, said the exact thing the link provided which was the equipment has to “meet” TSO requirements which the INS certainly does.
     
  28. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    That's why I don't know if I should just put it the bare minimum on this and try to sell it while I'm working on my ifr or I should get it somewhat decent nd keep it for a couple years.
     
  29. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    I did read it and it sounds like they are saying "you will be fine, but you didn't hear it from us". again, being fairly new to the game makes me not want to interpret this kind of thing myself very much.
     
  30. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    So Should I just not do the adsb yet and get a cheaper audio panel instead like a KMA24?
     
  31. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,546
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    i dont get all the people still installing kx155's, 430's, 530's and the like. they are old and barely serviceable. the displays in the 155 are not available anymore, the upgrade is 1800 bucks, its an OLD radio. better to spend a little more and get a sl30 or even better a 255. the vals are good units also and are current production. same with 430's and 530's they are coming to their EOL. screens are a big question mark for them also. don't get me wrong i love the 155 but both of mine just died and its really un-economical to have them fixed.
     
    CC268 likes this.
  32. bradg33

    bradg33 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,506
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Esquire99
    Dear god, don't do that. Audio panels are cheap, cheap, cheap to buy (even new) and crazy expensive to install. Don't cheap out on the panel itself to save a couple hundred dollars when the install is going to cost the same (or more, given the need to interface a KMA24 with an external intercom).
     
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  33. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    5,524
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    I don't get it either. My dad and I went through this process earlier this year. We looked at KX155s, but it made no sense to install one with the price they are asking. Not to mention if the display goes out your screwed (or upgrade to the new screen which cost an arm and a leg). I couldn't see installing a 430/530 unless you just got an absolute smokin' deal on one. Even then, like you said, they are at EOL.

    We ended up with a Garmin GNC255 (which is amazing) and a G5 HSI. Before that, we spent money on 2 bad refurbished King 211C CDIs. It was a nightmare. Were lucky that our 201C CDI has held up.
     
  34. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    8,659
    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    I agree, if you live in the flat lands, with low elevation airports, lower performance IFR ships are fine.

    The fact is that most aircraft for sale have junk that is hardly serviceable anymore. So anything that has a new radio should fetch a premium.
     
  35. John221us

    John221us En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,264
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    I went through this same exercise and decided it was better to sell the plane. The labor is going to be more than you think. Especially now, when every avionics shop is backed up for many months. It won't make sense to spend thousands in labor to install old unsupported stuff and you will never get it back out, when you sell the plane. As far as ADSB out goes; depending where you fly out of, that could be a lot more important, as you will need to have it to enter controlled air space (IFR or VFR). Not having ADSB out will also hurt your ability to sell the plane.
     
  36. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA (KGOO)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    weirdjim
    That's an interesting heresy. Why do you believe that?

    Jim
     
  37. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    652
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    We came up with the same thing but the avionics shop was looking at 9 months before they could install a GNC255. Instead, we installed a couple of KX155's and did the labor ourselves with supervision.
     
  38. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    5,524
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    Man that's a real bummer hearing these long waits. We have an avionics shop on field that has been excellent in getting us in within the same week.
     
  39. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    i think with all the adsb going on all the shops are way booked. luckily i found a&p i can work this with and ill be helping him out a lot so hopefully the labor won't kill me. the thing about going with the 255 is that i would need to find a garmin dealer and prices around here are not very friendly, if i even get the slot in that is. one shop i emailed and call and visited wont even call back and its been 3-4 months already.
     
  40. jaysuwan

    jaysuwan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jay
    Say if I was going to try to sell my plane to find something else. What do you guys think I can get out of it? basically I have the mx12 that works with indicator that needs to be calibrate. Audio works fine I just thought that since I am doing all this, might as well upgrade that too. DME works fine too. TTAF is right around 2900 and around 280SMOH. Besides all the avionic upgrade that I would be doing, she flies really great for around here in Socal.