Aviation Laboratories, lying bastards

timwinters said:
I don't know how you developed that opinion...he's been involved in every step of the process.
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Mostly where you stated your mechanic's involvement in your OP, and how you disregarded his advice.

timwinters said:
My mechanic cautioned against Aviation Labs saying that they jacked him around when he sent them oil and a filter recently from a metal making bonanza engine.

So I call AvLabs and talk to a guy who we'll refer to as Randall.

....my mechanic says that you jacked him around recently on a similar analysis...the report you provided told him nothing.
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timwinters said:
I fail to see how arming oneself with information before indiscriminately tearing into an engine is a bad idea...
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I think that if you have a filter full of metal there is no possible way to avoid "indiscriminately tearing into" the engine. Are you thinking the lying bastards could have told you it's the #3 exhaust valve guide and you could get away with just that?

Aviation Laboratories didn't wreck your engine. My first $100 would have gone towards the parts I'll need for a complete overhaul including the possibility of maybe needing a new crankshaft.
 
weirdjim said:
Well, let's think about this...

Here is what I think you said. Your oil analysis showed nothing unusual, yet when you cut your filter open you found identifiable "pieces" of metal. Did I get that right?

If so, consider that oil analysis shows wear. That is, the wear particles have to be small enough to pass through the filter and are actually dissolved in the oil.

The filter analysis shows catastrophic deterioration. No dissolution, but physical chunks of metal. Something big is coming apart.

The O-470 is known for having a bulletproof bottom end. The mains and the rods were designed by Godzilla. The top end, not so much. So, what can we think about? I believe the valve guides used that same alloy, but they generally wear, not disintegrate. The valves themselves are steel with no bronze/lead coating.

That generally leaves a bushing of some sort. Like the man said, starter adapter is a good place to start. If something got twisted around in there you'd start throwing big chunks of metal the first time you hit the button. Cam bearings? Possibly, but that's generally a wear item also. The generator/alternator is belt driven, so that's out. Vacuum pump? Possibly. Mags? Possibly.

Me? I'd figure out which end of the wrench gets greasy and start pulling the easy stuff off. By the time your mechanic gets around to you the mystery will probably be on the way to solution.

Good luck,

Jim
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Ahhh...a reasoned response trying to help instead of trying to attack...thanks, Jim. That's likely the course of action we'll take. Start pulling it apart...removing and inspecting the most likely suspects first.
 
timwinters said:
And I'm not worried about my wounds...just trying to keep others from having AvLab inflict the same wounds on them.
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OK. I don't think anyone who reads this thread can miss your message. Mission Accomplished.

If you continue to squawk about it, you dilute your message and sound like a sore loser here.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but if it were I, this is the time I would shut up about AvLab and get on with the repairs. What they/you find will be genuinely interesting to many. Please don't make us wade through page after page of whining to get there.

And I am sorry that this happened to you!
 
I'm unaware of any Continental or Lycoming that has cam bearing inserts.

There really isn't many places where that metal could have come from so hopefully it is easy to locate.

The way starter drives act I'd probably lean to it first. (I'm not an engine expert) The starter drive may need it anyway so I can't see that as $ down the diagnostic hole unless its really difficult to remove it and it turns out be normal wear.

Valve guides doing that seems like stretch but I'd think a guy could drop the valves in the cylinders and look. While on the valves thing, a careful look at the rocker arms and rocker shaft boss bushings should be done. Maybe a tappet clearance check too if the hydraulic units are collapsed.


Just don't be like my brother and somehow getting distracted and ended up breaking a rocker shaft boss of the cylinder.
 
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57 years, three runs.... you got more than your money's worth. Call it a core and buy a reman or custom shop overhaul from stock. You'll think you just added 30hp plus, and likely you will.
 
Stewartb said:
57 years, three runs.... you got more than your money's worth. Call it a core and buy a reman or custom shop overhaul from stock. You'll think you just added 30hp plus, and likely you will.
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It would be fun to put an old dog on the dyno just to see :D

Get an old 520 out that has low 60s/80 on 6 cylinders.
 
Have you ever replaced an airworthy engine with a new one? I have. No comparison. I also can speak to taking a 100 hour TT factory 0-470 off and replacing with a carbureted 520. Wowsa! I'll testify that the popular notion that TCM engines make full power with low compression is BS, too, based on my own experience. I'm very particular about engines and engine maintenance.
 
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Geico266 said:
Timmy, your expectations of what can be diagnosed by an oil analysis are simply unrealistic. :rolleyes2:
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It may or may not be. I think his problem is they promised him they could do something, he relied on that promise and paid them to do so (and paid them more than he would have paid others who could have done the same job for less) and they didn't do what the promised. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company to answer direct and specific questions honestly.
 
PPC1052 said:
It may or may not be. I think his problem is they promised him they could do something, he relied on that promise and paid them to do so (and paid them more than he would have paid others who could have done the same job for less) and they didn't do what the promised. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company to answer direct and specific questions honestly.
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Yes, I agree with this.
 
Hey, ask the test lab about the goofy oil pressure problem, too!
 
Aren't you the same guy who started a thread about sticking valves recently????

This might sound silly....but that might be a good place to start looking.
 
Stewartb said:
57 years, three runs.... you got more than your money's worth. Call it a core and buy a reman or custom shop overhaul from stock. You'll think you just added 30hp plus, and likely you will.
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If the decision is to go reman, you want to be careful how far you pull things apart. At least with Conti, to get core credit the engine has to come to them 'running when removed', they don't give core credit for a box of parts. Doesn't mean you can't pull off some rocker covers and the starter adapter, but before you start splitting cases, it makes sense to take a pause and decide whether it is time to overhaul anyway.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
Aren't you the same guy who started a thread about sticking valves recently????

This might sound silly....but that might be a good place to start looking.
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Yep, and yes, this is why the first thing I did is pull all the rocker covers. Everything appears to be in order (to my untrained eye). My mechanic is coming down next Friday to look with his trained eye...

BTW..I drained the oil from each pulled rocker cover through a separate paint screen/filter. No metal laying in the bottom of any of them...wish there had been.
 
timwinters said:
Precisely. I posed a direct question twice (or more times) and I received a direct answer.







Well, I think the answer lies in the first post of last Tuesday's "metal in filter thread" when I said:







This thread isn't about whether or not I need to OH my engine like Larry wants to make it.



It's not about whether or not the expectation that AvLab could do what they said was reasonable like Larry wants to make it.



It's not about how I went "looking for a fight" like Larry wants to make it...I didn't, I simply went looking for information.



What this thread is about is that I was blatantly lied to by AvLab and I simply wanted to warn others about this.



This thread is a fine example of why people are hesitant to share information on this site. The pompous blowhards, working with incomplete third hand info, twist things around and go into full insult and attack mode. I guess they think it makes them look big in the eyes of others. Seems to me to be the Internet version of small man's syndrome. We all learn a lot less and this place is far less useful because of those blowhards.
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Hopefully my commentary that you were going to end up pulling jugs wasn't considered "blowhard". (Honestly I haven't kept up well with the ten threads that have resulted from the same engine problem, I think, nor what others have said.)

My personal experience has been that yanking the jugs is going to happen from watching ten or a few less people go through this.

They always want "more info before cracking it open" and an awful lot of the modern Mike Busch wishful thinking creeps in, and a week or a month later, the jugs are off and they're looking inside anyway.

They're pretty simple mechanically compared to more modern stuff. When they start shedding metal chunks, it's pretty rare that they stop.

Just my personal observations. No blowhard-ness intended.

Good natured ribbing, absolutely. ;)

Ever seen the Clint Smith video about ten "Rhodes Scholars" standing around the guy with a firearm that malfunctioned at the range pontificating about why, instead of the guy just immediately doing the tap, rack, bang drill and getting the machine functioning again?

Out of all of the O-470 metal stories I've heard (and mechanics may have heard better), only ONE didn't make any more metal for hundreds of hours after a single flake.

With those odds, I'll patiently wait while my co-owners work their way through the thought process and even pay some snake oil place $100 if they want to do that, but it's mostly to make them feel better.

9/10 times its getting at least partially disassembled and looked at.

Mostly stated again so the assembled masses know what I'm thinking when I say, "just pull a jug and get it over with". I know you're headed down that path here shortly.

Metal coming from a big sloppy engine like an O-470 means something probably needs dealt with. It's just how the numbers usually work out. That's all I'm insinuating.

A complete overhaul? Not always necessary. Best to find the actual problem or know it's not something common in the top end, before making that decision.
 
so what is it Nate?.....what about an accessory making metal?

Pulling a jug would then be a fruitless effort.:goofy:
 
denverpilot said:
Hopefully my commentary that you were going to end up pulling jugs wasn't considered "blowhard". (Honestly I haven't kept up well with the ten threads that have resulted from the same engine problem, I think, nor what others have said.)
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Not at all Nate. There was only one blowhard in this thread...and I think he's gone now...hopefully anyway. We're good.

:D
 
timwinters said:
Not at all Nate. There was only one blowhard in this thread...and I think he's gone now...hopefully anyway. We're good.

:D
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You guys are so funny on this forum. I was not being nasty or calling you names. You say I'm the problem but you are the one insulting me. I read you're post and made a comment based of my perception of the situation.
 
timwinters said:
I'll try to make a long story short...

As you know I found metal in my filter last Sunday. An AOPA article I found online suggested that Blackstone and Aviation Labs (AvLabs) could diagnose the source of the metal.

Blackstone said no way.

My mechanic cautioned against Aviation Labs saying that they jacked him around when he sent them oil and a filter recently from a metal making bonanza engine.

So I call AvLabs and talk to a guy who we'll refer to as Randall.

Me: so, I think it's bronze, if I send you my filter then you can tell me what component it came from?

Randall: yes we can.

Me: how:

Randall: we can perform the metallurgy in it. The engine manufacturer uses different alloys for bearings, bushings, etc.

Me: and you can tell me which one it came from?

Randall: yes.

Me: I must tell you, I don't have a warm and fuzzy for this because my mechanic says that you jacked him around recently on a similar analysis...the report you provided told him nothing.

Randall: we can do it.

So I send them my filter pleats. Today I get the report and it simply states that it's alloy 4842. So I call Randall.

Me: Randall, dude, WTF? You told me that you could define what component the bronze came from...all I have is an alloy number.

Randall: I didn't say that. We don't know what alloys the engine manufacturers use where. All we can do is define the alloy. You have to call the engine manufacturer and they can tell you where it came from. Sorry you misunderstood me.

Me: (under my breath but audible) yeah, more like "sorry you're a lying bastard."

So I call Continental only to be told that 4842 is a leaded bronze that could come from bushings, valve guides or bearings.

No ****? I knew that going it.

I could dispute the credit card charges and probably should, but I won't. It's less than $100 and not worth the hassle. It's far more satisfying trashing AvLab's reputation on pilots' forums...we're a very small community after all...and people like this should be exposed for what they are.

All the above is paraphrased and/or just my opinion of course.

Lying bastards. (Oh, and that's just an opinion too)
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I'm sorry if you misspoke but anyone with an average reading comprehension level can see you know damn well they could not do what they were claiming. Yet you continued.

I hope it ends up being the starter adapter or something other than a total rebuild. However if you do need an overhaul atleast you will have a nice fresh motor to put lots of hours on!!
 
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Awhile back, I started sending oil samples to Blackstone from my I-6 3.0L BMW automotive engine. About the 2nd or 3rd one in they warned of excessive metals and gave me a guess on which part based on the metallurgy and what they saw in the oil. Based on this experience it appears they maintain a database of what is normal for engines and what is not and give a probable failed part.

I continued to run the engine. Soon thereafter I experienced the so-called dreaded head gasket leak, which my mechanic took care of and it was less painful that BMW forums suggested. I appreciated the advance warning, but it did increase my stress level considering there were other things going on.

I have another sample round due soon to see if the problem is resolved. Not the same as an aero engine, but I do think AVLabs overpromised on their capability.
 
Larry, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think Tim did the responsible thing and queried the company rep quite specifically about what they could do and as Tim relates it he asked them a very specific question. As Tim relates it they responded affirmatively. Not being versed in metallurgy my impression of reading about this company from Tim's post was that somehow they could identify the part the flake came from due to its composition, how the flake presented and other such tests that may indicate, how it fractured, how it may have been subject to wear and heat etc. I don't know how they do it but its not like they allegedly told Tim something so fantastically unbelievable that they could magically transport his engine through time and space to make it as if it were new.

This is not to say that their service is not worth anything, I'd think that narrowing down the possible sources of the metal will then allow you to use deductive reasoning and a process of elimination to make an educated guess, but that it not what Tim is reporting they promised.

Tim, sorry you have to deal with this engine situation, I can imagine its frustrating as all hell. I hope you find a fast and reasonably priced fix.
 
timwinters said:
Maybe this is why you're not understanding. They did not do an oil analysis. They analyzed the chips in the filter pleats.

They said that they could determine the alloy from the chips (they did this).

But they also said that the bearings, bushungs, valve guides, etc. were all different alloys. They said that they could tell me which it came from based on the alloy. (None of this was true or done).

When I called Continental yesterday, they said all the alloys of all those components are the same.

How did AvLab not lie to me?
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Tim,

We met in Dayton, so not trying to pick a fight, but if they said they could tell you the part, they gave you three possibilities, AND Continental told you the same three parts, AND that all three were made of the same alloy, seems to me you go what you were after.

The lab told you the alloy and what parts, just so happens there are 3 possible parts it came from.
 
The FBI crime lab used to claim their lab could tell if a lead bullet came from the same box of other lead bullets. Then a metalurgist challenged them in court, and it turned out they couldnt.

The big birds have bearings with distinct metals that wear when they are at their service limit and oil analysis can catch that and they know that bearing is ready for replacement.

Theres all kinds of stuff like this.

People over the phone will tell you all kinds of things. My manifold pressure guage broke and my mechanic called the company with the biggest ad in Tradeaplane and asked if they could rebuild it. Guy said yes. When the guy got it he called and said they dont work on that model, so he sold us a new one. Hah, he knows how to do it doesnt he?
 
txflyer said:
Tailwheel bearings in the oil screen are the hardest to figure out....:lol:
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Aviation equivalent of cranial rectal insertion syndrome...

A very good mechanic told me once the best method for analyzing failure is first to question everything you are told...
 
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MotoFlier said:
You guys are so funny on this forum. I was not being nasty or calling you names. You say I'm the problem but you are the one insulting me. I read you're post and made a comment based of my perception of the situation.
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well, except I wasn't talking about you.

PPC1052 said:
Nope. I'm still here.
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nor you! ;) (but you knew that!)
 
Rcmutz said:
Tim,

We met in Dayton, so not trying to pick a fight, but if they said they could tell you the part, they gave you three possibilities, AND Continental told you the same three parts, AND that all three were made of the same alloy, seems to me you go what you were after.

The lab told you the alloy and what parts, just so happens there are 3 possible parts it came from.
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I think you missed post #33:

They said that they could determine the alloy from the chips (they did this).

But they also said that the bearings, bushings, valve guides, etc. were all different alloys. They said that they could tell me which it came from based on the alloy. (None of this was true or done).

When I called Continental yesterday, they said all the alloys of all those components are the same.
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Yep, read it, but missed the point. Guess they didn't know how which materials Comtinental uses in their engines. As you found out and we all have learned, speaking to the engine company directly is the best way to learn details about their engine. Don't rely on third parties.

Btw- you may want to try boroscoping to look at the valves to see if you see anything, before starting to take things apart. Only need to remove the top plugs.
 
Rcmutz said:
Btw- you may want to try boroscoping to look at the valves to see if you see anything. Only need to remove the top plugs.
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yeah...did...with my dental camera...everything looks wonderful to my untrained eye.

My mechanic is coming down next Friday. He'll use his borescope (and trained eye) for a better look and he'll also look at all the rockers before we put the covers back on. We're also planning a cold compression test. If he agrees that there's no issues to be seen with what I have apart then we'll button it back up and I fly it to his 'drome (only a 1/2 hour).

Then the real disassembling will begin...likely first to come off will be the starter adapter based on what some A&Ps here have suggested.

One thing's for sure...

I'll take a trip without leaving the farm!
 
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