Aviation Laboratories, lying bastards

timwinters

timwinters

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I'll try to make a long story short...

As you know I found metal in my filter last Sunday. An AOPA article I found online suggested that Blackstone and Aviation Labs (AvLabs) could diagnose the source of the metal.

Blackstone said no way.

My mechanic cautioned against Aviation Labs saying that they jacked him around when he sent them oil and a filter recently from a metal making bonanza engine.

So I call AvLabs and talk to a guy who we'll refer to as Randall.

Me: so, I think it's bronze, if I send you my filter then you can tell me what component it came from?

Randall: yes we can.

Me: how:

Randall: we can perform the metallurgy in it. The engine manufacturer uses different alloys for bearings, bushings, etc.

Me: and you can tell me which one it came from?

Randall: yes.

Me: I must tell you, I don't have a warm and fuzzy for this because my mechanic says that you jacked him around recently on a similar analysis...the report you provided told him nothing.

Randall: we can do it.

So I send them my filter pleats. Today I get the report and it simply states that it's alloy 4842. So I call Randall.

Me: Randall, dude, WTF? You told me that you could define what component the bronze came from...all I have is an alloy number.

Randall: I didn't say that. We don't know what alloys the engine manufacturers use where. All we can do is define the alloy. You have to call the engine manufacturer and they can tell you where it came from. Sorry you misunderstood me.

Me: (under my breath but audible) yeah, more like "sorry you're a lying bastard."

So I call Continental only to be told that 4842 is a leaded bronze that could come from bushings, valve guides or bearings.

No ****? I knew that going it.

I could dispute the credit card charges and probably should, but I won't. It's less than $100 and not worth the hassle. It's far more satisfying trashing AvLab's reputation on pilots' forums...we're a very small community after all...and people like this should be exposed for what they are.

All the above is paraphrased and/or just my opinion of course.

Lying bastards. (Oh, and that's just an opinion too)
 
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You really expected them to tell you exactly where in the engine which part was wearing? They are testing an oil sample, they are not fortune tellers. I think you got exactly what they said they would do. :dunno:
 
Geico266 said:
You really expected them to tell you exactly where in the engine which part was wearing?
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Larry, that's exactly what they said they could do. You might want to reread the post.

Oh...and according to my mechanic...that's exactly what they told him they could do also.
 
This is kind of one of them situations where you went in looking for a fight than got offended when you found one.
 
No matter what you said or paraphrased (mechanic too), logic should tell you that all they can do is accurately identify the specific material sent to them, which they did. If an engine manufacturer can tell you that it's only on one component in the engine, job done. If it appears in 3 or 4 different places, you now know that.

Volkswagen committed fraud, then lied about it.

Stewart Parnell committed fraud, killed a few people, then lied about it.

Aviation Labs told you what they would do and did it, that's where my business is going.

Blackstone knew better and was unwilling - I'll avoid them.
 
MotoFlier said:
This is kind of one of them situations where you went in looking for a fight than got offended when you found one.
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The problem was they're the only ones who claim to be able to do this.

There was an old guy in Oklahoma who, for about a third the price, told me that he could tell me what the metal it is. But when I asked if he could tell me where it came from he told me "aviation labs are the only ones who say they can do that."

Blackstone said the same...try aviation labs

I really had no choice but to try. I called at least a 1/2 dozen labs and everyone kept pointing to them.

They clearly told me they could on the phone. They lied.

I'm just trying to keep the next person from falling into their trap. If that makes me a bad person then so be it.
 
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Bill Watson said:
Aviation Labs told you what they would do and did it, that's where my business is going.

Blackstone knew better and was unwilling - I'll avoid them.
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What am I not clearly explaining? That's the exact opposite of what actually happened.
 
Seems like it would be easy enough to cross reference his metallurgy with the engine manufacturers in the computer and give you a specific piece or area to look at.

But I guess they kind of do that in a way. Except it's up to you to then track the metal down using the manufacturers specs.

From the conversation, I'd say he is being close to the vest for sure. Not deceptive, but not forthcoming either.
 
Effing Randall!


So serious question...
What is your next move?
Just start replacing things until it stops?
 
What if they told you, you replaced those parts, and crashed when another component failed.... and they turned out to be wrong all along? Would you be upset? Would you go after them?

Does TCM keep records of metals used in engines they built 57 years ago?
 
Is this the same engine I told you they put bolts on the outside for pulling off the jugs and looking inside for a reason?

Done messing around, yet?

Could have already had a look inside by now... Just saying...
 
I fail to see how arming oneself with information before indiscriminately tearing into an engine is a bad idea, Nate, but it appears as if that's what we'll now be doing...simply tearing things apart until the problem is found.

And, no, I couldn't have had the jugs off by now, my mechanic is a good two weeks away from starting on it...he's backed up...hence I thought I'd try to educate myself during that time.

And I did indeed get an education. Just not the one I was hoping for.
 
timwinters said:
I fail to see how arming oneself with information before indiscriminately tearing into an engine is a bad idea, Nate, but it appears as if that's what we'll now be doing...simply tearing things apart until the problem is found.



And, no, I couldn't have had the jugs off by now, my mechanic is a good two weeks away from starting on it...he's backed up...hence I thought I'd try to educate myself during that time.



And I did indeed get an education. Just not the one I was hoping for.
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I wasn't picking on you that hard. :)

Sorry you have to do it. I just figured you would when you first found metal. We will eventually, too. :(

It's pretty rare for the O-470 to shed chunks of stuff without it needing some help somewhere. Whether major or minor help always seems from getting Mark One Eyeball inside from everything I've seen.

(Haven't seen anyone find something in the filter who hasn't chosen to either run it just a *little more* and found more metal, or who didn't just open 'er up and find it. It's a 1930's tractor engine, after all.)

Anything turn up in the latest Blackstone just out of curiosity?
 
Well.

Tim's a pretty precise communicator in the spoke word. If he came away from the phone conversation with the belief that the lab could identify the part by the metal analysis, I imagine that's what they promised him, in response to a pretty direct question.

As for whether it was rational to believe that they could do that, well, in hindsight, I'd bet Tim thinks not.

But Tim'd have to tell us that.
 
timwinters said:
Larry, that's exactly what they said they could do. You might want to reread the post.

Oh...and according to my mechanic...that's exactly what they told him they could do also.
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Sorry, but your expectations were not reasonable. An oil analysis company is not going to be able to tell you the exact part number of the component making metal. As you found out they would be able to tell you the metal alloy and you have to find the PN after talking with the engine manufacturer (if they still have those records).

You could pull a cylinder off yourself with help and instruction. They are not that difficult, just a bunch of wrenching. Will your A&P help you do that?

Here is a video of "how to". The quality is poor, but the verbal instruction is good. I'm sure there are better ones if you look. A good maintenance manual will have instructions also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8UU90uuHaE

Looking inside to find the offending part is going to be more productive than arguing with Randal. ;)
 
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The description of the analysis performed states that the results are given in AMS numbers.
 
SCCutler said:
Well.

Tim's a pretty precise communicator in the spoke word. If he came away from the phone conversation with the belief that the lab could identify the part by the metal analysis, I imagine that's what they promised him, in response to a pretty direct question.
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Precisely. I posed a direct question twice (or more times) and I received a direct answer.

SCCutler said:
As for whether it was rational to believe that they could do that, well, in hindsight, I'd bet Tim thinks not.

But Tim'd have to tell us that.
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Well, I think the answer lies in the first post of last Tuesday's "metal in filter thread" when I said:

2) The filter pleats are going to Aviation Laboratories in LA/TX. They say they can perform metallurgy tests on the flakes and determine exactly which engine component tossed them out...I'm skeptical...we'll see about that.
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This thread isn't about whether or not I need to OH my engine like Larry wants to make it.

It's not about whether or not the expectation that AvLab could do what they said was reasonable like Larry wants to make it.

It's not about how I went "looking for a fight" like Larry wants to make it...I didn't, I simply went looking for information.

What this thread is about is that I was blatantly lied to by AvLab and I simply wanted to warn others about this.

This thread is a fine example of why people are hesitant to share information on this site. The pompous blowhards, working with incomplete third hand info, twist things around and go into full insult and attack mode. I guess they think it makes them look big in the eyes of others. Seems to me to be the Internet version of small man's syndrome. We all learn a lot less and this place is far less useful because of those blowhards.
 
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weilke said:
The description of the analysis performed states that the results are given in AMS numbers.
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Interesting. Is that off of their website? That is exactly what they gave me. AMS4842.

However, I never visited their website. I called them...a competitor (the guy in Oklahoma) gave me their number. I spoke with "Randall" for about 15 minutes quizzing him about their processes and procedures. Then he emailed me a couple of forms to print off, fill out, and send in with my filter pleats.
 
timwinters said:
It's not about how I went "looking for a fight" like Larry wants to make it...I didn't, I simply went looking for information.

What this thread is about is that I was blatantly lied to by AvLab and I simply wanted to warn others about this.

This thread is a fine example of why people are hesitant to share information on this site. The pompous blowhards, working with incomplete third hand info, twist things around and go into full insult and attack mode. I guess they think it makes them look big in the eyes of others. Seems to me to be the Internet version of small man's syndrome. We all learn a lot less and this place is far less useful because of those blowhards.
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I'm not the one who said you went looking for a fight and were disappointed when you found one. See post #4 :rolleyes2:

I think we have found the blowhard in this thread. Calling anyone (or a company) a "lying bastard" for doing exactly what they said they would do is "disingenuous" at best.

You are right about one thing, POA is a good source for ACCURATE information.
 
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Geico266 said:
I'm not the one who said you went looking for a fight and were disappointed when you found one.
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No, but you sure did jump on that bandwagon...didn't you? You just couldn't resist proving to the masses that you're a far superior intellect to everyone else. :rolleyes:

Geico266 said:
I'Calling anyone a "lying bastard" for doing exactly what they said they would do is "disingenuous" at best.
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Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it. They did not do exactly what they said. Far from it. Sorry you can't understand that.
 
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timwinters said:
No, but you sure did jump on that bandwagon...didn't you? You just couldn't resist proving to the masses that you're a far superior intellect than everyone else. :rolleyes:
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Timmy, your expectations of what can be diagnosed by an oil analysis are simply unrealistic. You have an engine making unacceptable amounts of metal. It needs to be investigated internally.

Now that you know what the material is which part of the engine uses that material? That would be more helpful than calling a company who told you exactly what the material is "lying bastards". :rolleyes2:
 
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Tim,

I think its quite clear what you were trying to do. If they could have done what they said it probably would have saved a lot of time and trouble. It is sad that people lie and try to cheat others out of time and money.

I hope you can get this figured out quickly and at a reasonably low cost of time and trouble.

I would be mad and frustrated to.

Did this Blackstone place completely refuse to do anything for you at all out of curiosity or was their refusal directed at engine part diagnosis which is what I am assuming.

Good luck!

David
 
timwinters said:
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it. They did not do exactly what they said. Far from it. Sorry you can't understand that.
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I submit they did exactly what they told you they would do. You can take their information and go from there by either talking to the engine manufacturer, looking at a parts list, or tearing the engine down. IMHO, you misunderstood what they would be telling you.

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way. It was not intentional. It just seems to me that you were looking for something that isn't possible to do with an oil analysis. Having done several I guess I knew that, and assumed you would too. They can only show trends and identify higher than normal amount of metal & sand. Obviously, Avlabs can identify specific alloys which is very helpful in identifying wearing parts.

With the amount of metal you found though it is time to start tearing things down.

How many hours on the engine and when was it last overhauled?
 
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I recently had a case crack on my Baron. I'd have liked to ask a few questions here before I spent an average American's one year salary to fix it.

But because of crap like this, I didn't and I won't ask these questions.

This place really stinks sometimes and some of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves, but that's just a pipe dream.
 
timwinters said:
What am I not clearly explaining? That's the exact opposite of what actually happened.
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You explained it pretty clearly. I think I got it. What I wanted to say is that the specifics of what you were asking for and expecting were unreasonable. The guy should have understood that and more clearly explained what they could do and what you could expect. He apparently didn't. He did provide the closest thing possible and presumptively assumed you would be satisfied. He was wrong.

With that said, calling them lying bastards is a bit overdone. They didn't meet your (possibly unreasonable) expectations but they did give you the closest thing to it. With luck, the specific bronze alloy would have led you to a single set of parts but there's no way of knowing that without 1) doing the analysis and 2) working with the manufacturer.
Stewartb said:
What if they told you, you replaced those parts, and crashed when another component failed.... and they turned out to be wrong all along? Would you be upset? Would you go after them?

Does TCM keep records of metals used in engines they built 57 years ago?
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Accurate logs should tell you the former and TCM should have records of the OEM parts. Two points that are possibly reasonable and unreasonable depending...
timwinters said:
I fail to see how arming oneself with information before indiscriminately tearing into an engine is a bad idea,
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Totally agree
 
I think I'd be sending the starter adapter out with a note zip tied to the part:

!!!EMAIL ME PICTURES OF WEAR!!! (We found metal in oil filter and want to know if the adapter is causing it)
 
Were it me I'd call it money well spent. Thinking I know why there's metal in the oil and knowing are two very different things, and well worth some cash. Sounds like the communications were less than clear, but I've noticed that can happen with engineering types. Actually, I've noticed that with just about all types. It would have been far more accurate had the contact said that the lab could precisely identify the metal, as opposed to the part it came from. But they did the job and it sounds like they did Tim a valuable service. At least that's my take. Sorry I'm not foaming at the mouth at these guys. Still, what goes around comes around, you can be certain of that.

A good idea might be to get ahold of a supervisor and explain the issue. The resolution is very simple and would benefit the company and its future customers.
 
I'd go find a mechanic I trust...it appears to me that you don't trust yours.
 
Geico266 said:
It just seems to me that you were looking for something that isn't possible to do with an oil analysis.
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Maybe this is why you're not understanding. They did not do an oil analysis. They analyzed the chips in the filter pleats.

They said that they could determine the alloy from the chips (they did this).

But they also said that the bearings, bushungs, valve guides, etc. were all different alloys. They said that they could tell me which it came from based on the alloy. (None of this was true or done).

When I called Continental yesterday, they said all the alloys of all those components are the same.

How did AvLab not lie to me?
 
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flhrci said:
Did this Blackstone place completely refuse to do anything for you at all out of curiosity or was their refusal directed at engine part diagnosis which is what I am assuming.
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Blackstone simply said that the AOPA article was wrong...that they could not help to determine where the metal was coming from...rather just what metals show up in the oil (which is there normal service). They were forthcoming and truthful. They did an oil analysis for me but it showed nothing unusual.

Apparently I have no microscopic problems, only huge problems! :)
 
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well....sounds like someone is learning....the hard way. This boils down to the physics of failure....and failure modes.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I'd go find a mechanic I trust...it appears to me that you don't trust yours.
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I don't know how you developed that opinion...he's been involved in every step of the process.

steingar said:
But they did the job and it sounds like they did Tim a valuable service.
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They told me what I already knew. Simple home tests said it was bronze. Non ferrous, reacts with nitric acid.
 
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timwinters said:
Larry, that's exactly what they said they could do. You might want to reread the post.

Oh...and according to my mechanic...that's exactly what they told him they could do also.
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Reminds me of telling a kid not to touch that, you'll get burned...... First thing he goes and does is touch it.

Bro, not saying you asked for it, but you kinda did. Rub some dirt on your wounds and move on.
 
bnt83 said:
I think I'd be sending the starter adapter out with a note zip tied to the part:

!!!EMAIL ME PICTURES OF WEAR!!! (We found metal in oil filter and want to know if the adapter is causing it)
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Thanks, might just do that.
 
Unit74 said:
Reminds me of telling a kid not to touch that, you'll get burned...... First thing he goes and does is touch it.

Bro, not saying you asked for it, but you kinda did. Rub some dirt on your wounds and move on.
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Guilty as charged! But they were the only ones I found who said they could do it...and I thought it'd be worth a try.

And I'm not worried about my wounds...just trying to keep others from having AvLab inflict the same wounds on them. Just, I suppose, as my mechanic was trying to keep me from being wounded...

I didn't listen, did I. :)
 
Well, let's think about this...

Here is what I think you said. Your oil analysis showed nothing unusual, yet when you cut your filter open you found identifiable "pieces" of metal. Did I get that right?

If so, consider that oil analysis shows wear. That is, the wear particles have to be small enough to pass through the filter and are actually dissolved in the oil.

The filter analysis shows catastrophic deterioration. No dissolution, but physical chunks of metal. Something big is coming apart.

The O-470 is known for having a bulletproof bottom end. The mains and the rods were designed by Godzilla. The top end, not so much. So, what can we think about? I believe the valve guides used that same alloy, but they generally wear, not disintegrate. The valves themselves are steel with no bronze/lead coating.

That generally leaves a bushing of some sort. Like the man said, starter adapter is a good place to start. If something got twisted around in there you'd start throwing big chunks of metal the first time you hit the button. Cam bearings? Possibly, but that's generally a wear item also. The generator/alternator is belt driven, so that's out. Vacuum pump? Possibly. Mags? Possibly.

Me? I'd figure out which end of the wrench gets greasy and start pulling the easy stuff off. By the time your mechanic gets around to you the mystery will probably be on the way to solution.

Good luck,

Jim
 
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