Autopilot for flying in IMC

DavidWhite

DavidWhite

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Had an older guy tell me today that flying in actual without an autopilot is dangerous in IMC. I countered that not being able to fly in IMC without an autopilot is more dangerous.

Thoughts. Comments.
 
DavidWhite said:
Had an older guy tell me today that flying in actual without an autopilot is dangerous in IMC. I countered that not being able to fly in IMC without an autopilot is more dangerous.

Thoughts. Comments.
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Who told you that? (I want to protect myself)
 
I would counter the same. But autopilots are great things in IMC.
 
Interesting. I had a younger (to me anyway) airline pilot tell me the same thing yesterday when I was thinking of going up solo in IMC. This was before the really nasty stuff started coming close. He seemed relieved for me when I told him that I did have an autopilot.

I agree with you, BTW. I just told him that an autopilot makes things easier, but I didn't plan on using it during a proficiency flight.
 
People that "need" APs, shouldn't be allowed in the air.
 
EdFred said:
People that "need" APs, shouldn't be allowed in the air.
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Those that do need them are not pilots but baby sitters who are to input the commands into said autopilot.
 
A pilot should certainly be able to fly IMC without an auto-pilot, but a smart pilot will prefer one especially during single-pilot ops... It is just such a workload.
 
Say the auto is vacuum driven and that fails... then what? Bail or cyanide pill due to partial panel and no autopilot?
 
DavidWhite said:
Had an older guy tell me today that flying in actual without an autopilot is dangerous in IMC. I countered that not being able to fly in IMC without an autopilot is more dangerous.

Thoughts. Comments.
Click to expand...

If you're flying single pilot IFR for any distance in actual conditions, he is absolutely right. IFR flight is pretty taxing and the autopilot substantially reduces the workload of the single pilot. Even a basic wing-leveler is a great help, but if you have heading hold and course tracking, all the better. In truth, an autopilot also deals with turbulence better that a pilot-pilot.

The caveat here is that the pilot needs to be really familiar with the operation and function of the autopilot.
 
SbestCFII said:
If you're flying single pilot IFR for any distance in actual conditions, he is absolutely right. IFR flight is pretty taxing and the autopilot substantially reduces the workload of the single pilot. Even a basic wing-leveler is a great help, but if you have heading hold and course tracking, all the better. In truth, an autopilot also deals with turbulence better that a pilot-pilot.

The caveat here is that the pilot needs to be really familiar with the operation and function of the autopilot.
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As someone who has flown 50 hours in actual, almost all hand-flown, I guess I don't know. Most of the autopilots I've flown with don't handle turbulence well and the IFH says to turn the autopilot off when in turbulence.
 
bnt83 said:
Those that do need them are not pilots but baby sitters who are to input the commands into said autopilot.
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You just described an airline pilot...

..and yes Colgan 3407 springs to my mind.
 
Some of the more "upscale" multiaxis autopilots can be tempermental and I have seen a whole flight system give up because of a faulty sensor. On the other hand, proven systems from Century and STEC are virtually bullet-proof. My AFM says:

"There are no restrictions to operations in turbulence and as a general rule autopilot​
operation in turbulence will result in smoother operation."
 
SbestCFII said:
Some of the more "upscale" multiaxis autopilots can be tempermental and I have seen a whole flight system give up because of a faulty sensor. On the other hand, proven systems from Century and STEC are virtually bullet-proof. My AFM says:

"There are no restrictions to operations in turbulence and as a general rule autopilot​
operation in turbulence will result in smoother operation."
Click to expand...

I've only ever flown 2 airplanes that didn't have serious issues with the autopilots. The majority were Centurys and STECs. I can't find the reference in the IFH but remember the question when I was working on my IR that the proper response in turbulence is to turn the AP off. There is a reason on most airliners the AP will kick off in bad turbulence.
 
That's strange. I sure seemed to have turned out alright :dunno:

The level of dependency of some on autopilot is downright scary to me :yikes: I'm curious what his argument for this was
 
When moderate to severe turbulence is encountered, aircraft
control is difficult, and a great deal of concentration is
required to maintain an instrument scan. [Figure 10-14]
Pilots should immediately reduce power and slow the
aircraft to the recommended turbulence penetration speed
as described in the POH/AFM. To minimize the load factor
imposed on the aircraft, the wings should be kept level and the
aircraft’s pitch attitude should be held constant. The aircraft
is allowed to fluctuate up and down because maneuvering
to maintain a constant altitude only increases the stress on
the aircraft. If necessary, the pilot should advise ATC of
the fluctuations and request a block altitude clearance. In
addition, the power should remain constant at a setting that
maintains the recommended turbulence penetration airspeed​
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IFH, section 10-23. Sounds to me like the pilot should be doing pilot stuff not autopilot stuff.
 
Ah Machismo! My DPE for my IR told me that having an auto pilot on a plane for flight in IMC is very much preferred. Can I fly a plane in IMC w/o Auto Pilot? Yes. Would I prefer to have an AP on board as opposed to not? Yes. Is it safer to have an operational AP that the PIC knows how to use than not? Yes. Is flying in IMC w/o and AP unsafe? I'd say not necessarily.
 
DavidWhite said:
Had an older guy tell me today that flying in actual without an autopilot is dangerous in IMC. I countered that not being able to fly in IMC without an autopilot is more dangerous.

Thoughts. Comments.
Click to expand...

Both, used correctly an AP can make you a safer pilot, so if it is less dangerous to have one it must be more so not to.

However if you can't conduct the flight with out one you are even more unsafe
 
I once had a pilot (who was a CFII too) tell me that if I get into icing on an aircraft without de-icing equipment that I should always turn on the autopilot. :rofl:
 
The answer is in the middle. Hand flying in IMC is tiring. An A/P can reduce the chance of errors by keeping the pilot rested. It also make it much easier to enter rerouting instructions and perform other distracting tasks. However, you need to understand the system well. Also, there is a huge difference in A/P's. My DFC100 flies much better than my old Stec 55x. It handles turbulence very well where the 55x would disconnect. None of this absolves the pilot from being able to hand fly in IMC. How much an A/P helps also depends on the plane. For example a Columbia is easier to trim and hand fly precisely than a Cirrus which is fast in pitch.
 
Depends on how you define IMC. Smooth stratus, you have to punch up through, no need for an autopilot. Really heavy weather I want the option single pilot.

Why?

Because I want to be concentrating on the weather and decision making vs. trying to hold an altitude and heading. I want to be looking at the radar, stormscope, checking for icing/OAT, looking at the clouds when VFR, listening to figure out what other pilots are seeing and what ATC is doing, etc.

I've been in situations where I was doing a great job hand flying in rough IMC. Such a great job that I almost flew into a level 5 storm. No radar, but other aircraft were turning to avoid it and I just didn't put the location together in my mind accurately. Easy to do when you have your hands full.
 
Arguably, for somebody like me with virtually no autopilot experience, it would be MORE dangerous. That being said the more you have avionics wise and the more proficient you are in its use, the safer you are in SPIFR.
 
Pt 135 single pilot IFR requirements might also be worth thinking about in this argument.
 
The 91 vs 135 argument shouldn't be a factor. I've flown the same plane on both corporate and charter trips and didn't want to avoid a crash under one FAR more than the other, since I assumed it would hurt about the same both ways.

Training centers require pilots to demonstrate autopilot proficiency, a part of which is a coupled approach to minimums followed by a missed approach. The FAA is instrumental in designing and approving the required curriculum, so the agency's opinion on the issue should be apparent.
 
SbestCFII said:
If you're flying single pilot IFR for any distance in actual conditions, he is absolutely right.
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Not in my mind. I have hand flown hundreds of hours in IMC. I have sat there watching the electronics fly for hundreds of hours in IMC. Is an autopilot nice to have? You bet. Is it "absolutely" required on a piston single? Not even close.
 
ja_user said:
A pilot should certainly be able to fly IMC without an auto-pilot, but a smart pilot will prefer one especially during single-pilot ops... It is just such a workload.
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Workload is a relative term. 100% of my IMC hours are without an autopilot. Trim the plane right and the workload...well...there isn't one.
 
SbestCFII said:
If you're flying single pilot IFR for any distance in actual conditions, he is absolutely right. IFR flight is pretty taxing
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Wrong. If single pilot IMC is "pretty taxing" maybe you need to re-assess your skill set.
 
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If you've never flown with an autopilot how do you know the difference?

EdFred said:
Workload is a relative term. 100% of my IMC hours are without an autopilot. Trim the plane right and the workload...well...there isn't one.
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wabower said:
If you've never flown with an autopilot how do you know the difference?
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I don't need to smash my testicles with a hammer to know I don't want that to happen.

I know that the IMC flying I've done, I do not consider it a workload, difficult, or taxing. I have used an autopilot while VMC, so it's not like I've never used one.
 
I've got an autopilot and a real nice moving map. Much as I like my autopilot, I'd give it up before I gave up the map. The situational awareness and the fast response to aid with partial panel work is a whole lot more important to me than automation holding the wings level.
 
And I don't have to watch every pilot in the country to know how well they perform with the autopilot engaged vs when it's not.

EdFred said:
I don't need to smash my testicles with a hammer to know I don't want that to happen.

I know that the IMC flying I've done, I do not consider it a workload, difficult, or taxing. I have used an autopilot while VMC, so it's not like I've never used one.
Click to expand...
 
Is flying in IMC w/o and AP unsafe? I'd say not necessarily.
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I would say no. Nice to have, yes. Necessary for safe flight, no.

Is an autopilot nice to have? You bet. Is it "absolutely" required on a piston single? Not even close.
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I'm with Ken on this.
 
Most IFR pilots fly "Lite" IFR. This equates to marginal VFR or a climb through an overcast or broken layer to VFR-on-top conditions and so on. In these cases, it likely makes little difference as to whether you have an AP or not. However, if you are flying distances in clouds (I think my longest stretch in solid clouds in GA has been about 2-1/2 hours, then a basic autopilot is a godsend. It's all about CRM/SRM. The more resources you have to reduce your workload, then the safer the flight will be.
 
Strictly depends on the conditions.
 
DavidWhite said:
Had an older guy tell me today that flying in actual without an autopilot is dangerous in IMC. I countered that not being able to fly in IMC without an autopilot is more dangerous.
Click to expand...
I'm with you. But that attitude is not uncommon among those with no background outside large turbine powered aircraft in the military/airlines. Not much you can do to change their minds.
 
DavidWhite said:
Had an older guy tell me today that flying in actual without an autopilot is dangerous in IMC. I countered that not being able to fly in IMC without an autopilot is more dangerous.

Thoughts. Comments.
Click to expand...

It's a go/no go item for companies that get paid to make flights.
 
bartmc said:
It's a go/no go item for companies that get paid to make flights.
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Brought 66 folks into stl tonight (Nasty storms plus a go -around btw ) guess what was MEL/Deferred the Autopilot...rare MEL,but it does happen.

I'm all for staying proficient in hand flying (and hand fly all the time ) but to say you are safer with an autopilot in IFR is not a big enough statement..when you are in a high workload situation they are an available resource that can benefit you in spades. Moreover they can make flights far more comfortable.

When I instruct folks in GA planes with modern autopilots. I'm sometimes taken back at the lack of proficiency and understanding some have of the Autopilot/FD and their various modes . Autopilot proficiency is a real skill to keep sharp too.;)
 
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