ATC Slowdown via Flow Control?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Bill Watson, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    I just dropped my mate off at the airport for a flight into LGA. The plane had arrived on time but departure for LGA was delayed.
    First before they boarded, then the flight was taxied to the penalty box where flow control victims are held.

    Any chance that ATC has started a discreet “we aren’t getting paid” slowdown via flow control? Seems reasonable


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  2. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Update, LGA has some kind of ‘ground hold’ going on. Mate is still parked in penalty box at RDU and getting hungry.


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  3. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Winds are currently 300@23G30, so LGA is likely down to one runway, which will cause delays.

    Welcome to NYC!
     
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  4. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    I was just looking at that. Most of the NYC airports are down to 1 runway.

    NYC airspace
    Been cowed and unnerved
    engaged and entertained
    inspired and amazed
    Reminds me to stay en pointe



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  5. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    "Send me to Hell or New York City, it'll be about the same to me." --a more famous Hank than I'll ever be
     
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  6. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    I wouldn't believe that for a Dallas minute. The ATC folks here are complete pros and despite the pain they take pride in being efficient and safe. I just wish I knew what was legal - sending free pizza to everyone at ATC some Friday so they have one less thing to pay for?
     
  7. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    Call Dominos with your credit card, they'll deliver it. Just don't send the beer with it . . . . :devil:
     
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  8. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    I don’t believe it. Pros for sure.


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  9. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I used to live 15 minutes from LGA. I also used to drive to HPN or ISP when I had to fly commercial.

    Rich
     
  10. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Welcome to LGA. 2 clouds and winds greater than 10kts will cause delays.
     
  11. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Talk with Mike Coyne or Patrick Carter on the NTA Facebook group. Both work at Regional Approach and can answer that question.
     
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  12. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    I just got info. Planning on starting a thread tomorrow.
     
  13. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    They’ll get paid eventually. Inconvenient, but they will get compensated.

    What’s not fair is all the folks getting a 3+ week paid vacation on the taxpayer dime.
     
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  14. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    Maybe they'll get paid. Actually, it's not a paid vacation and most of them didn't want the vacation and they have to be careful not to go spend money on that vacation in case they actually don't get the back pay. Some of them will be out money because of having to take out loans to pay for real living expenses - these folks are people, too and have medical expenses, family emergencies, things that cost them real money. Also, it's costing taxpayers money, too. There are things that people like us have to work with ATC on that are getting clogged and going to get worse as this goes on. Because of my job I coordinate with TRACON folks a lot and I know specific individuals furloughed and not available to help with coordination and such. The managers and people that have to stay are having to work overtime to keep up with things, they were already very busy and some stuff probably just won't happen. Other situations like software glitches and equipment problems aren't going to be fixed because rules...
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
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  15. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Doubt that ATC would start a slowdown,the airline customers are not the problem.
     
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  16. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Other than LGA, is it typical for 23G30 to completely shut down runways?
     
  17. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Most airports that handle LGA-like volume have more than one piece of pavement that’ll work for a given wind scenario, so even in high winds they can launch airplanes off one runway while simultaneously landing on another. LGA unfortunately doesn't have that option. :(
     
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  18. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Yeah because the clusterfrack in DC is their fault.
     
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  19. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I guess I'm a little surprised 23G30 would ground planes that large.
     
  20. Unit74

    Unit74 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Friend of mine called up and asked for a$1k loan to keep the power on and buy food. He works for the .gov. Didn’t sound like much of a vaca to me.
     
  21. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    It doesn’t ground planes. The airlines have slots and when LGA is departing and landing on 1 runway (they usually depart 1 runway and land another runway) it messes everything up since ATC can’t handle the volume.
     
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  22. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    It’s not grounding - it’s just a crosswind problem. For example my current bird has a 33 knot crosswind limit, while my prior one was 28 knots.
     
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  23. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Line Up and Wait

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    I sent pizza to Boston Approach yesterday. I was thanked profusely, the moral around the facility was reportedly pretty low, and a small gesture like buying lunch for everyone was a much needed pick-me-up.
     
  24. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    This is getting pretty ridiculous; what happened to "Government by the people, for the people..."????
    The controllers are doing a great job out west here too, of course. A lot more professionalism than some of our...

    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/...fected-by-u-s-government-shutdown_a_23641079/

    Canadian Air Traffic Controllers Buy Pizza For American Colleagues Affected By U.S. Government Shutdown

    Canadian air traffic controllers are carrying out a simple, but heartfelt gesture for their American counterparts — they're buying them dinner amidst the U.S. government shutdown...
     
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  25. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    As mentioned, it doesn't shut an airport down but reduced the capacity of the airport. For example, at ORD on a normal west flow operation we can land 114 planes an hour and they can depart about the same. It is important to be able to depart about as many as you land because if you don't, eventually you will grind lock the airport by having gates, holding pads and available taxiways all occupied. If the winds turn to the northwest ~320-340 or so and are 10-15+ knots, the aircraft refuse 22L as a departure runway due to tailwind (sometimes crosswind) issues. When that happens, the tower now only has 1 departure runway while we are landing 3. They can't keep up and we have to come off an arrival runway so they can depart two. This will lower the arrival rate into ORD down to 76 or so an hour. Now a ground delay program will have to implemented as there are more planes wanting to use the airport than the airport can handle.
     
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  26. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    At the risk of playing semantics, the problem isn't ATC not being able to handle the volume. The problem is the users are scheduling more flights into the airport than the airport can handle. ATC has no problem landing planes until every inch of concrete is occupied and the planes can no longer move on the surface but your company and the passengers aren't okay with that (rightfully so). So instead of this being an ATC delay, that many in the industry like to throw around, it is a weather delay based on winds. An ATC delay would only be because our equipment or staffing isn't allowing us to land planes at the airports current capacity based on weather and that very rarely happens in the NAS. :)
     
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  27. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, we know this isn't the fault of the users or flying public. We are all in here moving planes with the same efficiency as usual hoping this all gets resolved sooner than later.
     
  28. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Thanks for that..
    My posts probably weren't worded very clearly.
    I guess what I'm really surprised at, is that the 23G30 causes this many issues with the larger planes. I get that it's preferred not to land with that as a crosswind, but to close a runway and make passengers wait for long times just sort of threw me off.
    Probably better to have everyone sitting quietly, than screaming and puking though :)
    Tailwinds I can definitely see. Sometimes I wonder if we're getting off the runway in time when full lol.

    Departing McCarran one in Dec. one year, they did this, but the winds were like 50kts and snowing like crazy. We waited for about 20-30 minutes I believe.


    sorry for the thread drift...

    (I know it's pretty rare around here)
     
  29. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Well that’s no fun. It’s just easier to tell my passengers it’s an ATC delay:).
     
  30. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    :lol:

    The whole flying experience is starting to make more sense now :cheerswine:
     
  31. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Yeah but if you had the chance, would you put a certain 747 in a very long extended hold somewhere?
     
  32. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Just wait for the fun in a few months in JFK. They’re closing a runway for like 8 months to make it wider.