ATC: "Please Verify You Are A VFR Flight"

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
So I'm flying along yesterday, Nor Cal to So Cal, in total VFR conditions, with broken about 5,000 feet above me, for a 10 nm radius (and skies clear outside that) and ATC (Bakersfield) contacts me and says, "Please Verify You Are A VFR Flight."

I'm thinking...why is he asking me this? Am I at the wrong altitude? No, 9,500, heading 110. Was he thinking the unforecasted smoke from CA fires I encountered 100NM earlier was IFR? No...at least I think I could see beyond VFR requirements at all times. (Briefer told me there was no smoke when I asked...wrong!). Did maybe the last controller forget to input I was VFR?

Then he asks two other pilots the same thing...no explanation.

Why would he even ask us this? In years of flight following, this is a first for me.
 
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If you have the weather just say, 'affirmative VFR' and leave it at that. He may of had his reasons, no worry on your side.
 
No big deal,he could be asking for several reasons. He was probably just verifying the info he had in front of him.
 
There are so many possible reasons from an incident nearby to communication issues to a new trainee who is not sure (and far more). You don't know unless you ask the controller at the time (best) or call the facility afterward.

I was once asked in good VFR to confirm I had the terrain ahead in sight. That one was heightened vigilance because a plane had been lost in a high terrain area not too far from my position within the past few minutes (not a happy ending to that one).
 
Note that he didn't specifically ask if you were in VMC. Not that everyone always uses the distinction, but he was probably just making sure that you didn't have an IFR plan on file. He couldn't find one, so he was making sure you were on the same page.

When I've had to deal with deteriorating weather, changing course to drop through a gap in a broken layer, stuff like that, ATC has asked me before to "verify you're VMC at the moment." That's where they're trying to figure out if I need a pop-up IFR (or emergency vectors for a non-rated pilot).
 
you'd be surprised how often pilots on VFR flight following think they're on an IFR clearance.
Who knows what his reason for asking was. Doesn't matter.
 
Happens a lot when on flight following. They often want to confirm you're not an IFR flight and/or confirm your route and destination since they seemingly don't get that info sometimes on the handoff.

I was once on IFR and controller thought I was VFR.

Controller: "You're at the edge of my sector and the next controller hasn't accepted the handoff yet... Maintain VFR, squawk 1200, frequency change approved"

Me: "Um, I'm in IMC and on an IFR flight plan, so unable"

Controller: "Oh, wow, yeah, so you are... "
 
Thanks, all! Makes sense.

You know, I never thought I was the kind of pilot who'd fly VMC into IMC. But this trip taught me it can happen in a really sneaky way. In this case, it probably wasn't technically IMC. But any more smoke and it could have been.

The change was very gradual...not like seeing and intentionally flying into a cloud. First, we saw a subtle brown, and then over 40NM it gradually got really bad. On approach into Nor Cal, ATC warned me about it (down to 2000', then clear). Two hours later, ATC knew nothing about it and denied there was smoke in my briefing. 15 minutes after takeoff, it was really bad. I'm shocked the briefer didn't know. There's no way anyone could be expected to see another plane in that soup.

Anyway, thanks for the responses! Always learning something here.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Thanks, all! Makes sense.

You know, I never thought I was the kind of pilot who'd fly VMC into IMC. But this trip taught me it can happen in a really sneaky way. In this case, it probably wasn't technically IMC. But any more smoke and it could have been.

The change was very gradual...not like seeing and intentionally flying into a cloud. First, we saw a subtle brown, and then over 40NM it gradually got really bad. On approach into Nor Cal, ATC warned me about it (down to 2000', then clear). Two hours later, ATC knew nothing about it and denied there was smoke in my briefing. 15 minutes after takeoff, it was really bad. I'm shocked the briefer didn't know. There's no way anyone could be expected to see another plane in that soup.

Anyway, thanks for the responses! Always learning something here.
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Did you file a PIREP? That can really help the briefers know what is going on out there.
 
Were you handed off to him? There's nothing that indicates on the strip I believe that you are IFR or VFR though it's intuited from the altitude block.
 
Zeldman said:
Did you file a PIREP? That can really help the briefers know what is going on out there.
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I told the briefer and she said she had no other reports (which I know to be false, since ATC warned me earlier). I didn't want to argue with her.

Once airborne, I reported it to ATC (Flight Following, not 122.0, since that service is closing or so I've heard). At ATC, they usually appreciate PIREPS and thank me. This time, the controller said, "Is there some action you want me to take?" I said, "No. Just wanted to report it." He did not answer and clearly did not want the info.

I do wonder where we'll report PIREPS when 122.0 closes soon (if that rumor is true).
 
flyingron said:
Were you handed off to him? There's nothing that indicates on the strip I believe that you are IFR or VFR though it's intuited from the altitude block.
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it's incredibly obvious in the center environment. In terminal I don't know.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
... Why would he even ask us this? In years of flight following, this is a first for me.
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Call the facility, ask for the duty supervisor, and ask your question. In my experience they are always generous with their expertise and time. They might even pull the "tapes" and listen to the exchange in order to better explain the situation.

I called one time concerning a worrying conflict (not rising to the level of a near-collision) at a towered airport. Not only did they pull the tapes, the final result was a change in the MOA between the tower and the ARTCC. For all the bitching about FSDOs and medicals, I have found the ATC organization to be uniformly pleasant, interested in talking to pilots, and helpful
 
PeeGee said:
you'd be surprised how often pilots on VFR flight following think they're on an IFR clearance.
Who knows what his reason for asking was. Doesn't matter.
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You'd be surprised how often controllers giving VFR flight following think you're on an IFR flight plan.

It's happened more than once that I've had to remind a NorCal controller that I was VFR. Like the time getting vectored around east of Livermore trying to execute a VFR practice ILS approach with too much traffic around, NorCal offered me the option of canceling IFR….go figure.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I do wonder where we'll report PIREPS when 122.0 closes soon (if that rumor is true).
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Flight Watch isn't going away. It's being consolidated with FSS. So, call 122.2, or just report it to Approach or Center if you're already talking to them.
 
MAKG1 said:
Flight Watch isn't going away. It's being consolidated with FSS. So, call 122.2, or just report it to Approach or Center if you're already talking to them.
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Other than snitty bruefers who got upset when you tried to do non-weather things on 122.0, there hasn't been any real difference between Flight Watch and the normal Radio positions since long before LockMart took over the FSS.

In fact, the FAA wanted to just coalesce it all with the ARTCCs years ago but the community made such a stink that they just let a contract and outsourced it.
 
MAKG1 said:
You'd be surprised how often controllers giving VFR flight following think you're on an IFR flight plan.
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That's why, while on VFR flight following, my standard check-in after a handoff is, "Bugsmasher 123, 9,500, VFR, to [destination]." Eliminates a lot of confusion and follow-up questions from the controller.
 
Pilawt said:
That's why, while on VFR flight following, my standard check-in after a handoff is, "Bugsmasher 123, 9,500, VFR, to [destination]." Eliminates a lot of confusion and follow-up questions from the controller.
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Exactly,

Every new controller gets a "We are VFR!":yes:
 
MAKG1 said:
Flight Watch isn't going away. It's being consolidated with FSS. So, call 122.2, or just report it to Approach or Center if you're already talking to them.
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It is just going back to what it was 30 years ago.......except with worse weather briefings, since they eliminated local knowledge briefers.
 
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Part of the issue is that the ATC computer system is an ancient 1980s vintage dinosaur. You may get handed off from one controller/facility to the next and the new one has no info on you other than your call sign and your squawk code. I have experienced this a few times while IFR: I'll file and have no problem picking up my clearance and then a few controllers later will have absolutely no info on me in the system (at the same time I show up just fine to anyone tracking me on FlightAware).
 
Possible computer problems and he couldn't be certain for some reason that you weren't on an IFR flight plan so he's just confirming. If someone said "no, we're IFR" then maybe he'd hunt for their information.
 
Maybe a shift change, and the guy coming in was just getting his ducks in a row and making sure he knew what was what?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Part of the issue is that the ATC computer system is an ancient 1980s vintage dinosaur. You may get handed off from one controller/facility to the next and the new one has no info on you other than your call sign and your squawk code. I have experienced this a few times while IFR: I'll file and have no problem picking up my clearance and then a few controllers later will have absolutely no info on me in the system (at the same time I show up just fine to anyone tracking me on FlightAware).
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Huh?

Centers are all on ERAM and most terminals I believe are on STARS on, both are nearly new.
 
flyingron said:
Were you handed off to him? There's nothing that indicates on the strip I believe that you are IFR or VFR though it's intuited from the altitude block.
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I'm not sure but if I recall hearing somewhere that IFR and VFR flights are given differennt transponder code series, at least in some areas.
 
PeeGee said:
Huh?

Centers are all on ERAM and most terminals I believe are on STARS on, both are nearly new.
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Apparently not everyone has upgraded. I started a thread back in April about why I was getting asked mid flight to 'say destination' and a controller here explained that a lot of their computers were dated and information wasn't being shared between facilities. I just had this happen 3 controllers in a row (all Approach) and after the third guy asked me to 'say destination' I asked him why. His response was that there was nothing on me in the system which amazed me since my info was all clearly in the system when I first checked in with Atlanta Center.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Apparently not everyone has upgraded. I started a thread back in April about why I was getting asked mid flight to 'say destination' and a controller here explained that a lot of their computers were dated and information wasn't being shared between facilities. I just had this happen 3 controllers in a row (all Approach) and after the third guy asked me to 'say destination' I asked him why. His response was that there was nothing on me in the system which amazed me since my info was all clearly in the system when I first checked in with Atlanta Center.
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I literally can't think of a situation where that would happen in a center or center to center.
 
flyingron said:
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7110.66D_.pdf

Perhaps within a single facility, but if you're going between ARTCC areas, I think they all come out of the same pool. Absent a clear IFR altitude or a route that looks like an IFR route, an IFR would seem not to be too distinguished from a VFR.
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there's a HUGE difference between putting in a VFR flight plan and an IFR flight plan in a center, a VFR is a simple VP message and takes a couple seconds, they also display VFR quite clearly. No one cares about the beacon code, the computer spits it out and if it's taken in the next center the next center computer sill spit out another. We don't look at the code unless indicated you're not on the right code.
 
PeeGee said:
there's a HUGE difference between putting in a VFR flight plan and an IFR flight plan in a center, a VFR is a simple VP message and takes a couple seconds, they also display VFR quite clearly. No one cares about the beacon code, the computer spits it out and if it's taken in the next center the next center computer sill spit out another. We don't look at the code unless indicated you're not on the right code.
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Eh, I was responding to his "you can tell by the allocated code" comment.
 
PeeGee said:
can't comment on center to approach. don't know anything about STARS
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STARS is integrated into ERAM so the information coming across is the same. The FAA's goal is to have all of the TRACON legacy systems replaced by 2020.

I think the target was to have 80% of the Terminals on STARS by next summer.
 
Aren't people overthinking this? We occasionally get unusual questions or requests but I just answer and don't bother reading too much into it. That request could have happened for any number of reasons.
 
Everskyward said:
Aren't people overthinking this? We occasionally get unusual questions or requests but I just answer and don't bother reading too much into it. That request could have happened for any number of reasons.
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:yes: This happens a lot on this forum.
 
Everskyward said:
Aren't people overthinking this?
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Yes, it's what POA does best.

One other reason I haven't seen mentioned is the weather. The OP said he was under a cloud layer. If the controller had weather radar it's possible he was showing a radar return in that area and was verifying that the OP was not in IMC since the radar often only shows an area of weather and not the heights.
 
All kinds of different reasons. It could be that once a controller had a "boo boo" over whether or not an aircraft was VFR or not and now they ALWAYS verify. Sometimes between different facilities the data just doesn't process correctly. Shouldn't happen, but it does. I know it seems a bad thing that "they" don't seem to know what's going on. It's a good thing that they are verifying. Someone above said they have just started checking in with "VFR" after a handoff all the time. Not a bad idea, those 3 extra syllables are not going to congest the frequency.
 
Pilawt said:
That's why, while on VFR flight following, my standard check-in after a handoff is, "Bugsmasher 123, 9,500, VFR, to [destination]." Eliminates a lot of confusion and follow-up questions from the controller.
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I would hope the "VFR" commentary is unnecessary because your altitude makes it obvious...I would hope...

I never state "VFR" in my transmissions when on flight following. Maybe I should though.

I've flown a lot of XC trips on FF east of the Rockies and, honestly, the only time I ever had issues was:

A) When I worked in Georgia. ATL approach thinks they control most all of Georgia, regardless of the airspace. They'll vector you around when you are many miles outside of the class bravo if you let them.

and

B) When I worked in Wisconsin and regularly transitioned Rockford Approach's airspace. The most snide cantankerous bas***** that I've ever dealt with. I once heard an airline pilot ask them "so...let's get this straight...am I up here because you're down there or are you down there because I'm up here? Yes, please do give me a phone number to call."
 
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