ATC makes mistakes and I get reported

[Rushie]

"Turn base" or "I'll call your base". That's one call you don't want to miss. You got a nice headset?

Stop looking for fault and learn. It doesn't have to happen a third time.

^^This

The OP didn't say he was unclear what was said; he indicates that he heard something that turned out to be not what was actually said. If he was unsure then yes, it is on him. But if he at the time had no reason to doubt what was said, then it is still on him but for a different reason. He needs to go to an audiologist for an audiogram and possibly also get a better headset. The problem could also be elsewhere; in his panel, people being stepped on, or controller speaking unclearly, nothing he can do about the last except be honest with himself whether he is assuming things without being certain. As everyone points out we cannot help further unless he links to the tapes.

Age related hearing loss typically begins long before we become aware of it and the first symptoms are misunderstanding of speech especially where there is a lot of background noise. Yes ATC should have caught his error but the root cause of the problem is the misheard transmission. That is what OP needs to focus on correcting.

Like the others have said, I have no problem with the go around. He may have been overly cautious there but there are worse sins than being over cautious.

 

[luvflyin]

..........If you were unsure of the radio call ASK for clarification. Do NOT follow an instruction that was not understood..........

It wasn’t that he was unsure. He just heard it wrong. He said he found out later that it was I’ll call your base

...”I report left downwind and they say what I thought was turn base. It ended up being "I'll call your base" but extremely fast.”

 

[arnoha]

I'm going to take a slightly different track on adding to the consistent piling-on the OP has been taking...

I'm a motorcyclist (well, more so before airplanes took over my time and budget) and we have a saying: Being right doesn't make you any less dead. We know that "cagers" (stupid term for car drivers, but it captures the disdain here) don't see us and behave like frickin' idiots, especially around motorcycles. We know that cops are going to pick on us because they have a perception that we're scofflaws, individual variation be damned. Legal "correctness" is irrelevant when you're the guy in the back of the ambulance and the at-fault but untouched car driver is just lamenting that, "I didn't see him!" In decades of riding, you can tell which guys are going to be the accident magnets...they're the ones that are always ranting about other drivers. At some point, you get a zen about it, realize you can't fix stupid, and ride in a way that minimizes the chances of that messing with you. Or you don't and have your motorcycling career ended for you sooner or later.

Being a pilot isn't much different, especially VFR. (IFR is a bit different, as you really are trusting your life to the controller when IMC.) Even if it wasn't your fault, it's your fault. Even if it wasn't your problem, it's your problem. The plane is just as unforgiving as the motorcycle and staying alive is all about what's going on between your ears. You can't fix other people's stupid. You can't eliminate trainee mistakes. You won't always get comms right. You can't enforce the rules, especially from beyond the grave. The question should always be: What should I have done differently? It's never what should others have done differently, because those others will always exist. You have to survive even with those others.

And that's really why you're being piled upon in this thread. A few others have said it more gently, but I'll be blunt. We want to hear you say something like this: What do you guys think I should have done differently? How could I have changed to prevent this? We want to hear you own it from tip to tail, even if you think it wasn't your fault. And then...listen. Not saying you need to take the responses as gospel. Evaluate each one for yourself.

One last piece of (unsolicited) advice that has nothing to do with safety, and more to do with how to not get piled on. After you listen, let us know that we've been heard. We all have egos and we love to be heard. So...stroke that ego! (You can practice with this post. )

 

[MooneyDriver78]

It wasn’t that he was unsure. He just heard it wrong. He said he found out later that it was I’ll call your base

...”I report left downwind and they say what I thought was turn base. It ended up being "I'll call your base" but extremely fast.”

But he should have heard the transmission(s) of the plane(s) and tower on final, the fact that he was surprised by the other traffic tells me he has a real or imaginary hearing problem.

 

[denverpilot]

It wasn’t that he was unsure. He just heard it wrong. He said he found out later that it was I’ll call your base

...”I report left downwind and they say what I thought was turn base. It ended up being "I'll call your base" but extremely fast.”

They’re two very distinct phraseologies. You either heard one, or you heard the other, or you ask. They’re close enough you should know they’re close and pay close attention.

One continues you downwind where it’s relatively rare to have crossing traffic. The other turns you toward more traffic.

Situational awareness.

Someone else mentioned that the pilot may very well have some hearing loss. I’ve flown with some who do. They pass the FAA hearing test but in a noisy cockpit their ability to copy declines rapidly.

They have to alter their behavior a bit to be extra cautious about ATC requests and clearances.

 

[Timbeck2]

Not only hard of hearing but many of us fly in and around airports that have a LOT of English as a second language student pilots. Phoenix approach has a reputation for it's controllers being less than accommodating or downright rude sometimes. Listening to them explain things over and over to the Asian student pilots that have blocked out the sun for the rest of us makes me understand why. At my home base in Tucson, I've seen a Southwest 737 go around because the Asian student pilot exited the runway but did not taxi past the hold short line. I got off on an adjacent taxiway and when I switched over to ground I heard an agitated controller pleading with the guy to taxi forward. Then I looked and saw the 737 go around. The Asian guy kept repeating that he needed to taxi to the T hangars and wasn't interested in any response that didn't include taxi approved.

 

[danhagan]

.... many of us fly in and around airports that have a LOT of English as a second language student pilots. .... The Asian guy kept repeating that he needed to taxi to the T hangars and wasn't interested in any response that didn't include taxi approved.

Heard similar heading to Stinson 3 years ago. Guy with eastern Europe accent was really messing things up ... to the point that KSAT approach was FINALLY able to get him to squawk and ident just to locate him and keep him out of the Class C.

 

[Witmo]

Nothing to add concerning situation one. On the second, one post implied the OP turned base midfield. To me it sounds OP was late reporting downwind and ended up turning base where he normally would although the controller apparently wanted him to extend his downwind so tower could let the six aircraft formation land in front of OP. By turning base before the controller intended him to, he caused a conflict with the formation. Someone assumed the six aircraft were a military formation which makes me wonder. We rarely flew more than four ship formations unless practicing for an airshow. RVers seem to like practicing multi-ship formations and the fact that the OP said the formation was chattering on tower freq makes me suspect these were civilians. Military formations let the leader do the talking. Most military jets will have VHF capability nowadays unlike my UHF only experience. Military jets flying up initial will probably be 500 feet higher than civilian single engine TPA so any conflict would have occurred on final with faster aircraft overtaking the OP. Sounds like the OP screwed up by not fully understanding his instruction due to comms being stepped on or whatever. ATC could very easily not have heard the bad readback if comms were stepped on. OP should have requested clarification.

 

[Velocity173]

Nothing to add concerning situation one. On the second, one post implied the OP turned base midfield. To me it sounds OP was late reporting downwind and ended up turning base where he normally would although the controller apparently wanted him to extend his downwind so tower could let the six aircraft formation land in front of OP. By turning base before the controller intended him to, he caused a conflict with the formation. Someone assumed the six aircraft were a military formation which makes me wonder. We rarely flew more than four ship formations unless practicing for an airshow. RVers seem to like practicing multi-ship formations and the fact that the OP said the formation was chattering on tower freq makes me suspect these were civilians. Military formations let the leader do the talking. Most military jets will have VHF capability nowadays unlike my UHF only experience. Military jets flying up initial will probably be 500 feet higher than civilian single engine TPA so any conflict would have occurred on final with faster aircraft overtaking the OP. Sounds like the OP screwed up by not fully understanding his instruction due to comms being stepped on or whatever. ATC could very easily not have heard the bad readback if comms were stepped on. OP should have requested clarification.

Yeah, I was thinking the same about the flight of 6. The only time I worked 6 jets was the Blue Angels. Sounds like some RV dudes using tower freq for their internal calls.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

. Sounds like some RV dudes using tower freq for their internal calls.

That’s not what I read, he said they were talking on tower frequency AFTER he cut them...which I can understand.

 

[Clip4]

1.What are you flying that you cannot land in 3000 ft? Get your POH out. A typical Warrior, Archer, 172, 152 ect has a ground roll less than 700 ft.
2. It is your responsibility to hear and understand ATC instruction. If you do not, you need to ask for clarification.

 

[Velocity173]

That’s not what I read, he said they were talking on tower frequency AFTER he cut them...which I can understand.

“I see a formation of 6 airplanes behind me doing an overhead break and talking among themselves.”

 

[James331]

Hello all,

So this is the second time something similar has happened to me, and both times it was reported and then dismissed without any adverse consequence to the controllers that were controlling the airspace. There were two issues the last time.

Issue 1 - ATC wants me to land on the same runway on which there is another airplane that is already on the ground but still taxiing. We have a 3000 feet separation as reported by tower, but the airplane that landing is taxiing (at a brisk walk pace presumably) and I am doing 65 knots over the threshold. I have a closure rate of estimated 50 kts, and that separation will become much less if the airplane on the ground decides to take the next taxiway. Uncomfortable, so I asked if I can go around - and got ready to go around, permission or not.

Issue 2 - ATC tells me to report left downwind on the go around which I do (a bit later than midfield). I report left downwind and they say what I thought was turn base. It ended up being "I'll call your base" but extremely fast. I said turning base, and turned base. Now from base, I see a formation of 6 airplanes behind me doing an overhead break and talking among themselves. ATC never corrected what I said and never corrected my base turn until I started turning final and there were a lot of people on the radio. Then I heard go around step to the right - which I did. Then they came back with "possible violation, call this number" - so called the number and actually went and talked to the tower.

Controller on duty at the time was actually a trainee that never verified my readback and also never caught what I was doing even though I was on a base leg and fully visible from the tower. On top of that, I was reported to FAA for a possible pilot deviation - which I knew wouldn't hold any water.

So on that flight, I feel ATC put me in two places that I didn't belong. I am in their airspace and I feel they failed to keep me separated and safe. They failed to do this by putting a trainee in an airspace with 6 very fast moving planes in the pattern that were talking among themselves. And then I get violated.

So should I just be happy that there was no certificate enforcement against me and be happy about that, or should I go ahead and see if I can actually hold ATC responsible for the mistakes they made? How do you even do that?

1, execute go around, tell them you're on the go around for traffic on the runway.

2, sounds like a mis communication, if you did indeed read back "turning base" and they didn't correct you that's a mistake on their end.


Doesn't sound like you did anything wrong, miscommunication, only fault I really see on your end is you weren't aggressive/assertive enough on the go around, it's a statement not a question.

Take always
If you think you should go around, you should probably have done it 5 seconds ago

Maybe get a better headset

Never be afraid to ask a controller to slow down or say again

 

[Timbeck2]

We may never know. OP isn't talking.

 

[Zeldman]

Phoenix approach has a reputation for it's controllers being less than accommodating or downright rude sometimes.

Must only apply to folks from Tucson...

I came out of PHX one night and the shelf was covered in thunderstorms. The nice controller vectored me through the cells so well the plane didn't even get wet.

ABQ now..... tower sent me to departure and I came up in the middle of the worse butt chewing I have ever heard on a radio before or since. I do not know what transpired to upset the controller but he was yelling very loudly and ended the transmission with, "get out of our airspace and do not ever come back.!!! GOOD DAY.!!!"

I was afeared to check in..... I waited a good minute before and did and thankfully a different voice answered me.

 

[denverpilot]

Yeah, I was thinking the same about the flight of 6. The only time I worked 6 jets was the Blue Angels. Sounds like some RV dudes using tower freq for their internal calls.

That’s not what I read, he said they were talking on tower frequency AFTER he cut them...which I can understand.

“I see a formation of 6 airplanes behind me doing an overhead break and talking among themselves.”

We may never know. OP isn't talking.

Got trolled again. Walter Mitty made up another pattern story.

 

[SkyDog58]

We may never know. OP isn't talking.

Yep. Sometimes our brutal honesty can be... well... brutal. However I think most on here try to provide good honest answers and advice though we do tend to do so without sugar coating things. Some folks just can’t handle not hearing the soothing supportive answers for which they came. Instead they get their feelings hurt and go away. Such is life.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

“I see a formation of 6 airplanes behind me doing an overhead break and talking among themselves.”

AFTER he turned base, his exact words were “Now from base ...”
You seem to have same problem as the OP...you hear or read what you want.

 

[Timbeck2]

Must only apply to folks from Tucson...

I came out of PHX one night and the shelf was covered in thunderstorms. The nice controller vectored me through the cells so well the plane didn't even get wet.

ABQ now..... tower sent me to departure and I came up in the middle of the worse butt chewing I have ever heard on a radio before or since. I do not know what transpired to upset the controller but he was yelling very loudly and ended the transmission with, "get out of our airspace and do not ever come back.!!! GOOD DAY.!!!"

I was afeared to check in..... I waited a good minute before and did and thankfully a different voice answered me.

Well I never said that they were rude to ME. I've had nothing but pleasant experiences with them. Hell, they even approved me into Bravo without me even asking a couple of times.

That is usually the case with controllers. If someone gets out of control the supervisor pulls them out of position. What happens next depends on the situation. We have a controller at the Tucson Tracon that is rude to everyone, pilots, Davis Monthan and Tucson controllers alike. I have no idea why she still has a job.

 

[Velocity173]

AFTER he turned base, his exact words were “Now from base ...”
You seem to have same problem as the OP...you hear or read what you want.

??? I’m just quoting the OP. Doesn’t matter at what point in the pattern anyway. He said they were talking amongst themselves. Well, in order to know if they were talking amongst themselves, generally that means he would have to hear them...on tower frequency.

 

[SkyDog58]

So truly all we really know about the OP is that he was at least a bit off base.

 

[Salty]

Seems to me like all the problems revolve around the OPs lack of understanding that separation is his responsibility. From asking if he can go around to not knowing where others are in the pattern and clarifying instructions that appear to be unsafe.

 

[AggieMike88]

So truly all we really know about the OP is that he was at least a bit off base.

Well played, sir, well played.

 

[Zeldman]

That is usually the case with controllers. If someone gets out of control the supervisor pulls them out of position. What happens next depends on the situation. We have a controller at the Tucson Tracon that is rude to everyone, pilots, Davis Monthan and Tucson controllers alike. I have no idea why she still has a job.

Could it be because of the three letters in bold above.??

And I think I have heard that person on the frequency...

 

[Timbeck2]

Not touching that one with a ten foot pole.

 

[AggieMike88]

Not touching that one with a ten foot pole.

Wanna borrow a 9-foot Hungarian?

 

[bradg33]

It is US Court of Appeals caselaw. The NTSB overruled the FAA and dismissed the PD. The FAA appealed. The Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit reversed the NTSB and upheld the violation. The principle of the case is that the NTSB must accept the FAA's interpretation of the rules under a statutory enhanced deference standard. That standard was changed in the Pilots Bill of Rights legislation, but whether that would change the result is unknown.

The case is FAA vs NTSB and Merrell.

That's it, clearly I mis-remembered a little. Thanks for the Cite!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Wanna borrow a 9-foot Hungarian?

The Smothers Brothers had a routine where they did the Volga Boatman song. If I remember it accurately, one the the middle of the song explanations was that they uses poles to push their way down the river. They used to use Romanians but they got all soggy in the water.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That's how they elected a Polish pope about 40 years ago...the cardinals all got together and said, "we need to choose a new pope...how so we do that?"

Somebody suggested, "Why don't we take a poll?"

So they did.

 

[AggieMike88]

The Smothers Brothers had a routine where they did the Volga Boatman song. If I remember it accurately, one the the middle of the song explanations was that they uses poles to push their way down the river. They used to use Romanians but they got all soggy in the water.

No matter how many frequent flyer miles Tommy has, they won't upgrade him to pilot

Maybe not recalling he is not a pilot is what is going on in the original post.

 

[arnoha]

No matter how many frequent flyer miles Tommy has, they won't upgrade him to pilot

Maybe not recalling he is not a pilot is what is going on in the original post.

Heh, actually watched it. I had to look it up...Tom Smothers is not a pilot, so that is correct. But the spot rang a bit too true, so looked up his brother. Dick Smothers is a pilot.

Reminds me of another old joke:

How do you know there's a pilot in the room?

Wait five minutes and they'll tell you.

 

[davidgfern]

Some mistakes may have been made but this is a dangerous and incorrect assumption on your part and is a common misconception. The only time you are guaranteed separation services VFR is inside Bravo. While they will do their best to sequence, it is still 100% on the pilot to see and avoid all the way to the runway. Relying on ATC to do that can be a fatal mistake if you are assuming that will happen automatically.

IMO, every approach to landing is a go-around until proven otherwise.

I agree completely --- I've been in numerous situations regarding traffic separation where, if I had listened to what ATC was telling me, I'd be dead. These occurrences generally happen on tower frequencies when training is taking place...... don't ever totally trust a traffic call by ATC!

 

[bbchien]

The problem is not reporting midfield, then turning base and creating a collision hazard.

THAT is the problem here.

 

[aftCG]

.

The crux of the matter here is that I feel ATC is at fault.

See there's the problem. Which chapter of the AIM is dedicated to feelings?

This is the second time this has happened to me and I ignored it the first time. I can ignore and go past again, but there has to be a way to hold ATC responsible so that they can think twice about violating pilots.

Huh. Got nothing to add there

As pointed out elsewhere, in class D the controller may be issuing instructions but his actual responsibility for separation is on the ground.

Many years ago I was a CFI at a busy class D airport . One night a tower controller realized he had stacked two planes from our school on short final together.

When he realized he made a mistake he told one of them to go around. Unfortunately it was to the plane ahead and below. That plane popped up much less than 50' ahead of the other.

New panties for everyone involved.

As also pointed out elsewhere, get in the habit of visualizing ALL the planes talking to tower. Even the idiots calling "18.6 miles out" on a 90 knot plane

That, and not feelings, will prevent this ever happening to you again