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wsuffa

wsuffa

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
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DC Suburbs
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Display name:
Bill S.
From a friend of mine in ATC:

PSA: the "open to anyone" Air Traffic Controller job bid is open for 5 days only - closes Friday. If you, a son/daughter, or friend is less than 31 years of age, check this out. When it closes, that's it until next year!
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What's the training washout rate?

If they want 2-3k, they'll have to start with (2-3k)*x
 
At the moment, the fail rate down in OKC is around 70%... at least for the enroute program. I don't know the specifics of the terminal version.
 
What's the reason the fail rate is so high - shoveling in tons of dirt for diamonds in the rough or a difficult program? I'll have my hat in the ring for both the ATC side and the training ATC controllers side :D
 
OK City isn't just the end of the washout either. Some get the boot at their facilities during OJT. Where my brother works, they've got about 5 in the pipeline. They haven't signed anyone off in the tower in a few years. No one is making the cut.

In the Marines I'd say we washed out 30-40 %. At one time our base had so many former controllers doing odd jobs in the area that the base Sgt. Major called over wanting to know what was going on. Our facility SNCO simply told him that everyone isn't cut out for the job. It's the truth. Lives, especially during a GCA, depend on it.
 
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My neighbor is a center controller - he guessed at 50%. He said there's really no test for aptitude until you get OJT. I'm guessing some of the washout is people realizing it just isn't for them and dropping out. The majority of the rest, according to him, has a lot to do with attitude, having a thick skin, being able to take criticism, and being able to learn from mistakes without beating yourself up about them.
 
When I toured my local ATC facility one time, they said sometimes they will hire folks "off the street" and then train them to work as a controller, though eventually going to OKC to get FAA certification.
 
Ryanb said:
When I toured my local ATC facility one time, they said sometimes they will hire folks "off the street" and then train them to work as a controller, though eventually going to OKC to get FAA certification.
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That's what's happening now.

As far as the "going to OKC to get certification": I think everyone starts at OKC first, and then off to training at whatever facility you are assigned.
 
Ryanb said:
When I toured my local ATC facility one time, they said sometimes they will hire folks "off the street" and then train them to work as a controller, though eventually going to OKC to get FAA certification.
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Like Matthew said you've got it backwards. An off the street hire is just someone without controlling experience or a CTI background. You go to OKC for the academy for 2-3 months depending on if you're enroute or terminal and then you're sent to a facility for on the job training and with enough time and competence you become certified in each of the positions at your facility until you're fully fledged.

And yes, I would say it is just that difficult. ATC is a demanding job and some people simply can't do it. It takes a certain mindset I think.
 
Oh ok, I figured you had to go out to OKC sometime throughout training. I wonder how hard it would be to get assigned to your home ATC facility?
 
Ryanb said:
Oh ok, I figured you had to go out to OKC sometime throughout training. I wonder how hard it would be to get assigned to your home ATC facility?
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My guess is it's all about demand. If it happens that your home airport is understaffed, they might put you there. Of course there can also be hundreds of other understaffed towers around the country as well.
 
overdrive148 said:
What's the reason the fail rate is so high - shoveling in tons of dirt for diamonds in the rough or a difficult program? I'll have my hat in the ring for both the ATC side and the training ATC controllers side :D
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Imagine trying to drink water from a fire hose. That's what the training is like. It's a lot of work and a lot to memorize in a short period of time.
 
Again, according to my center controller neighbor: you can put in for your preferences, but you get sent where the need is greatest. His best guess: Chicago, NY, and Atlanta are the most understaffed right now. When I looked at the job posting, I thought it said applicants would be randomly assigned to enroute (center) or terminal (tower/TRACON) training.
 
I went through OKC in 1977. At that time we were told the dropout rate at OKC was about 50%. I went through with a class of 16 from my college and we all made it through. 12 of us in the Enroute and the others in tower.

At that time the FAA required a 4 yr college degree, the major did not matter.
Is that still the case?

I worked ZBOS for a number of years at the journeyman level before leaving for a flying career.
 
BillTIZ said:
I went through OKC in 1977. At that time we were told the dropout rate at OKC was about 50%. I went through with a class of 16 from my college and we all made it through. 12 of us in the Enroute and the others in tower.

At that time the FAA required a 4 yr college degree, the major did not matter.
Is that still the case?

I worked ZBOS for a number of years at the journeyman level before leaving for a flying career.
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Nah no college degree. I have a few friends who got out after the military and went FAA with no college at all. As far as I can remember, ATC has always been one of those careers that's advertised as a high paying job that doesn't require college.
 
Ryanb said:
Oh ok, I figured you had to go out to OKC sometime throughout training. I wonder how hard it would be to get assigned to your home ATC facility?
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To add on to what others have said, nearly every facility is understaffed. Enroute vs terminal is chosen for you before you get to the academy. You may get to give a preference but its ultimately up to what the FAA needs. At the academy if you're in a class of 20 then there will be 20 facilities on a list. If 15 of you graduate than 15 will be on the list and the highest ranking person in the class gets first choice off that list then second and so on. Reality is, you'll probably go to that facility for a few years and either washout or get certified. If you get certified you can start looking at transferring to somewhere you would rather work. Maybe a different geographic location or a higher level facility. (10-12 level facilities don't get anyone from the academy)

This is what Ive been told for the past couple of months. Things change and thats just part of the deal.

You don't need a college degree, however you do need either/or a combination of 3 years of work experience or 120 credits. If you do a combination of them then 1 years worth of full time work is considered 40 credits.
 
Is the age a hard limit? I would love to change career and get into ATC, but I won't have citizenship until I am 32 (30 right now)


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How is the age limit not in violation of The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 ?
 
deftone said:
Is the age a hard limit? I would love to change career and get into ATC, but I won't have citizenship until I am 32 (30 right now)


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30 seems to be the hard limit for civilians.
 
jordane93 said:
Do you want a 70 year old senile man working ATC?
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If he proved he can do it as efficiently, proficiently and as safely as a 30 year old then why the fudge not ?

but there in lies the rub, I bit your troll bait - take Senile out of the equation, then what ? ask loaded questions much ?
 
jaybee said:
If he proved he can do it as efficiently, proficiently and as safely as a 30 year old then why the fudge not ?

but there in lies the rub, I bit your troll bait - take Senile out of the equation, then what ? ask loaded questions much ?
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Air Traffic Controllers have a mandatory separation at 56. In order to get 25 years to be eligible for retirement (FERS), you need to start by 31.

Not much different than airline pilots stopping at 65.
 
I get that and know that, however that does not answer the question ? Is it mandatory by law to retire from ATC if you take a job with them ?

This is a sincere question, how is it not in violation of Age Discrimination laws ? and what if the proposed employee did not care about retiring from ATC ? even the US Air Force now takes up to 39 years old.
 
jaybee said:
I get that and know that, however that does not answer the question ? Is it mandatory by law to retire from ATC if you take a job with them ?

This is a sincere question, how is it not in violation of Age Discrimination laws ? and what if the proposed employee did not care about retiring from ATC ? even the US Air Force now takes up to 39 years old.
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Because organizations such as the airline industry has argued to establish age limits based on a occupational qualification. EEOC grants exceptions to the law such as the Part 121 limit of 65 yrs. The military has been granted exceptions as well. Every branch has an age limit for their flight programs. The way it was explained to me in flight school was that if you take a 30 yr old and they stay til the min retirement of 50, that's when they'll start to develope physical problems. Obviously everyone won't, but some will. They'd like to get at least 20 yrs out of us before you become physically unable.

Age isn't the problem for experienced controllers. Plenty of guys go from mandatory retirement right into a contract tower job. They can do that traffic load safely. The problem is taking some 55 yr old of the streets with no ATC background whatsoever. Odds of them making it through OKC is slim. Odds of making it through OJT at their facility, even slimmer. The FAA would be wasting their money. That's why They'll only allow age waivers for prior ATC experience.
 
The ADEA applies a little differently to feds, and has exceptions for BFOQs (bona fide occupational qualifications), as found by the EEOC on an agency-by-agency basis. There are also different rules for law enforcement, firefighters, and military.
 
jaybee said:
How is the age limit not in violation of The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 ?
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Legal carveout. The ADEA originally did not apply to the federal government in 1967. The mandatory retirement and recruitment age limits for ATC came in around 1972, and when the ADEA amendments in 1978 made it apply to the federal government, the ATC exception (and other exceptions, like law enforcement) was left in.
 
jordane93 said:
Do you want a 70 year old senile man working ATC?
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No, but I know some pretty sharp 70 year olds I wouldn't have a problem with vectoring me. But I do know some stupid 30 year olds I'd have second thoughts about!! :yes:
 
Either way, my hat is now officially in the ring.

What are they looking for with the assessment of questions by the way, some special blend of person or?
 
If you meet the age requirement, go for it.

It is by far the best job I have ever had, as tough as it was to attain.

Feel free to send me a private message if you would like more information. Good luck!
 
MarkZ said:
If you meet the age requirement, go for it.

It is by far the best job I have ever had, as tough as it was to attain.

Feel free to send me a private message if you would like more information. Good luck!
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I'm really looking to get into the airlines but ATC interests me as well.
 
I applied... The worst that could happen is I don't make it. I like what I do, but its not aviation, and the money could be better. So we'll see!
 
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