Argh! Frickin' old people!

flyingcheesehead said:
Bah. The guy that almost killed me had no insurance - And he's damn lucky it happened in WI where insurance is not required, because he was from IN where insurance is required. :mad: Homeowners insurance ended up paying for my personal losses (like my laptop) but the company was even more :mad: than me - It cost them $36,000 to repair the truck.
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Obviously you didn't read the rest of my post....

CJones said:
Of course, once that happens, they'll simply start driving without insurance which means next time Kent gets hit, he'll be s.o.l.

Hmm... I guess we're just screwed.
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;)
 
AdamZ said:
Kent I hear your frustration. Some senior drivers, the ones that drive 30 in a 55 can drive you nuts but so can the younger speed demons out there. I have to say that while I may get frustrated at someone who dosen't know where they are ie, stopping at every mailbox or intersection to see if thats the place they need to turn and then drives 20 mph below the limit so they don't miss the turn I am much much more concerned with A-H drivers of any age who feel the road was paved there for them, the ones that cut you off, speed down the shoulder. Weave in and out of traffic at speeds way over the limit.
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Y'know Adam, I see a lot more of those types every day than I do the old people, but I've never been hit by one of 'em.

I think the difference is that when you see some jerk weaving in and out and yakking on the phone, you can see them coming and stay the hell out of their way. The old folks are usually nice and calm and conservative, right up until they jump out of their lane and smack ya - There's no warning with them.
 
qbynewbie said:
It's very common for motorcyclists to ride down the white line between two lanes of traffic, weave in and out of traffic lanes and generally drive in a way that causes other drivers to have to react to them. One could envision a situation where an older driver just wasn't able to react fast enough.
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Lane splitting is far safer than sitting in traffic, which is why I do it. One of my (now) two motorcycle accidents involved some damn woman slamming into my six. Had I been lane splitting she would not have had the opportunity.

Yes, one does have to dodge opening doors, cigarettes, coffee, and all sorts of other things coming out of cages, not to mention the irate cagers themselves. However, if one hits anything one does so at about 10-15 mph, which is fairly benign.

That's not to say that there aren't a lot of bikers hanging it out where you live. I doubt any of them ride unsafely very long...
 
steingar said:
Yes, one does have to dodge opening doors, cigarettes, coffee, and all sorts of other things coming out of cages, not to mention the irate cagers themselves.
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Please watch the name calling...some of us with experience in these kinds of discussions find the term "cagers" insulting. It seems to be intended to disparage those of us who prefer to have some real metal around us for protection.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You may be on to something there, Ted.
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When you start out with bad, it is only likely to get worse as it deteriorates! :)

Sad part is, as the cars get better, the driving gets worse. Alan Klapmeier had an interesting perspective on that on Pilotcast 51 (show notes - audio)
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That part is very true. Some friends of mine have a '53 Pontaic Chieftain and a '56 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 (or whatever it's called). I've driven both of them, and as my friend puts it "You have to be a good driver to be able to drive these cars." I think they're great to drive, but you do need to know what you're doing. Part of that has to do with their present state of disrepair, part of it has to do with the lack of idiot-proof features.

Today, cars have ABS, traction control, won't do things that you tell them to if they're programmed as such... basically, the message is "You don't need to know what you're doing, the car will make up for it." My last boss had a Mercedes C43 AMG. He was one of the few people who genuinely terrified me behind the wheel, because he had absolutely no idea what he was doing, and he said "Oh, I don't need to, the car does everything."

Same guy kept on trying to get me to race him with my Jag, but refused to race me on the twisty backroads I live on. One day, after he'd been particularly annoying and he was saying his car was faster than mine, including in turns, I said "No, until your car gets a driver upgrade, any car I'm driving, including my Suburban, is going to be faster than yours."

Maybe not the best career move, but he stopped bugging me after that. :rofl:
 
steingar said:
Lane splitting is far safer than sitting in traffic, which is why I do it. One of my (now) two motorcycle accidents involved some damn woman slamming into my six. Had I been lane splitting she would not have had the opportunity.

Yes, one does have to dodge opening doors, cigarettes, coffee, and all sorts of other things coming out of cages, not to mention the irate cagers themselves. However, if one hits anything one does so at about 10-15 mph, which is fairly benign.

That's not to say that there aren't a lot of bikers hanging it out where you live. I doubt any of them ride unsafely very long...
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Maybe you do it at 10-15 MPH, but I've seen bikes in rush hour traffic doing 60-70MPH with everybody tailgating, jumping between cars, getting into slots where they have literally 1-2' of clearance in front of and behind the bike, and generally doing things with no margin for error! I've also seen (many years ago), crotch rockets roaring along PCH, going around traffic on blind curves, etc. These are the sort of riders who give motorcyclists a bad name, just as there are some "pilots" who give the rest of us a bad name. I feel sorry for the people who hit these motorcyclists, because they basically unintentionally helped the bike rider commit suicide, but have to live with the consequences themselves.
 
I think you guys missed it...... he has bad CAR-ma
 
I have often wondered why, when I'm in the left lane on the freeway and 5 over the limit, there is always a bunch of cars behind me, when I get over to let them pass, they get over too.

Or
When I am in the HOV lane there is a single driver (no pax) is always going 10 under the limit.

Or

When I allow the 2 seconds between cars for safety some one always jumps in the space.
 
gprellwitz said:
Maybe you do it at 10-15 MPH, but I've seen bikes in rush hour traffic doing 60-70MPH with everybody tailgating, jumping between cars, getting into slots where they have literally 1-2' of clearance in front of and behind the bike, and generally doing things with no margin for error! I've also seen (many years ago), crotch rockets roaring along PCH, going around traffic on blind curves, etc. These are the sort of riders who give motorcyclists a bad name, just as there are some "pilots" who give the rest of us a bad name. I feel sorry for the people who hit these motorcyclists, because they basically unintentionally helped the bike rider commit suicide, but have to live with the consequences themselves.
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Can't disagree, anyone traveling in that limited a space at such velocities is indeed taking a great risk.
 
jmaynard said:
Please watch the name calling...some of us with experience in these kinds of discussions find the term "cagers" insulting. It seems to be intended to disparage those of us who prefer to have some real metal around us for protection.
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Jay, I agree with you. I rode a motorcycle for 5 years when I was in college, and I've got the screws in my left ankle to prove it. Graduated in 1975 and have been on a motorcycle maybe three times since then. Fun, but no protection when some fool in a car runs a stop sign and hits you broadside. I've had two accidents in the past two years where idiots crossed into my lane leaving me nowhere to go. Fortunately, my Jeep is a lot tougher than a Saab or a small pickup truck. Had I been riding a motorcycle it wouldn't have been pretty. But, even after 33 years away from riding, I have no trouble spotting them on the road.
 
steingar said:
Can't disagree, anyone traveling in that limited a space at such velocities is indeed taking a great risk.
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As a "cager", all I can do is try to drive in such a way as to minimize surprises and hope they have the skills to match their cajones! :yes: And I think you recognize that I am not painting all riders with that brush! :no:
 
gprellwitz said:
As a "cager", all I can do is try to drive in such a way as to minimize surprises and hope they have the skills to match their cajones! :yes: And I think you recognize that I am not painting all riders with that brush! :no:
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I hope they have skulls that match the thinkness of the pavement.

Having had a major motorcycle crash where the helmet saved my life I will never ride without one! NOT EVER! I hope those that have chosen not to wear one survive when they have their accident.
 
smigaldi said:
Having had a major motorcycle crash where the helmet saved my life I will never ride without one! NOT EVER! I hope those that have chosen not to wear one survive when they have their accident.
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In 17 years of volunteer EMS, there was almost an exact 1-to-1 correspondence in my experience between whether the rider was wearing a helmet and whether he lived.
 
Years ago, before Bermuda had a helmet law, the college kids on spring break provided a bonanza harvest of young, healthy organs for transplant. The helmet law severely restricted the supply.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Years ago, before Bermuda had a helmet law, the college kids on spring break provided a bonanza harvest of young, healthy organs for transplant. The helmet law severely restricted the supply.

-Skip
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In the health care field that's the nickname for helmetless riders -- Organ Donors
 
qbynewbie said:
I think it's dangerous drawing broad generalizations about any large group of people rather than considering them as individuals with individual needs.

Ironically, given the thread title, I think the age group most likely to have an accident is the under 21 crowd.
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Thank you. I'm 67, have 20/20 vision and reflexes good enough to still fly a military fighter jet if the occasion presented itself, and good enough to fly a cabin-class twin, which I do.

I'm sorry the gentleman had such bad luck with his car, but if we want to worry about getting a class of drivers off the road, let's work on the DRUNKS!
 
2256Q said:
Thank you. I'm 67, have 20/20 vision and reflexes good enough to still fly a military fighter jet if the occasion presented itself, and good enough to fly a cabin-class twin, which I do.

I'm sorry the gentleman had such bad luck with his car, but if we want to worry about getting a class of drivers off the road, let's work on the DRUNKS!
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Well, at 67 your still a young'un, especially if you consider yourself fit enough to fly a military jet again. I think Kent was thinking more along the lines of the 90+ geezers (which I hope to join someday) and there's definitely a correlation between the feeble near centurian crown and poor driving skills. Certainly not all are bad but a high percentage aren't too good IME.
 
jmaynard said:
In 17 years of volunteer EMS, there was almost an exact 1-to-1 correspondence in my experience between whether the rider was wearing a helmet and whether he lived.
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In high school and college I knew 4 people who needed helmets. 3 had them and are alive today. The 4th did not, and died at the scene. My wife and I are 2 of the 3. You don't have to sell me on their value.
 
lancefisher said:
Well, at 67 your still a young'un, especially if you consider yourself fit enough to fly a military jet again. I think Kent was thinking more along the lines of the 90+ geezers (which I hope to join someday) and there's definitely a correlation between the feeble near centurian crown and poor driving skills. Certainly not all are bad but a high percentage aren't too good IME.
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Actually, I've seriously been considering buying one of the little L-29s. Biggest thing stopping me is the fuel consideration. 20 years ago I was flying Air Force fighter jets. In that business you learn to constantly run self-evaluations of your skill and competence levels if you want to keep waking up the next morning. I certainly wouldn't want to pit myself against one of today's kids in a dogfight, but as far as flying one of the things, Chuck Yeager is about 17 years older than I, and he took an F-15 up not too long ago. I don't think I'm unique, either. Most of the guys I flew with could probably still do the same thing.

I'll go back to what I said about drunk driving. There's a group that kills thousands of people every year, regardless of the drunk's age. An old guy may bend your fender, but is unlikely to kill as often as the drunk.
 
ATGATT. I look like some crazy sci fi warrior by the time my kit is on.

I can't disagree about drunk drivers, but there are laws against that (or are supposed to be). No law against geezers. And like it or not, they're going to become much more common quite soon.
 
Bob Noel said:
>When is someone going to do something about old people who can't drive?

About the same time they do something about young people who can't drive
and about the same time they do something about ALL those drivers who
are a danger to those of us on motorcycles.
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and the same time they do something about ALL those drivers who are a danger to those of us on bicycles. I almost got rear ended because Mr. billy bob decided he had to make a right on red from behind me. I look back, no turn signal, but hes waving for me to get out of the street. I just stayed there like he wasn't doing anything. People need to learn that bicycles can legally function in the road, and must be treated the same as cars. If he had his turn signal on I'd have gladly moved LEFT a little for him to make his RIGHT hand turn. When was the last time you saw a car turn right from the left side of a car waiting for a light to change?

and the story about an old lady who was at the DMV, and for the eye part of it she said that there were no letters, and the clerk told her that there were and she couldn't renew her license. She left, and no one intended to stop her from driving home.

People need to learn that driving is a privilege and not a right. I'm all for controlling cars the same way as controlling aircraft.

And whats worse is no one cares enough to do anything about these people.


edit-

smigaldi said:
I don't have the data at my fingertips, but I have always heard that senior drivers are the least likely to get into an accident. What I don't know if that is per mile driven or what.
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I've always heard 45 was the safest, and it deteriorates equally on each side, but I'm sure with all these distractions people insist on using now that 16-45 is much more dangerous

Lawreston said:
I was in Massachusetts on July 03 to bring back a pickup load of stuff to store for my cousin until her big retirement house gets finished at Highland Green( http://www.highlandgreenmaine.com/ big development near my former Topsham house).

On Interstate 495 South everyone was doing about 70mph. I was in the left lane and following a Chevrolet Express van driven by a guy with his left arm out his window. Directly to his right was a large box truck and all lanes were full.

The van driver's left arm disappeared, only to reappear when he tossed something out his window, the something hitting my windshield. Aha! A small chip and then a crack from left to right, about 3" up from the bottom. #%$@*&%*$%#**)^$%!
I couldn't get his attention because of the jammed lanes; but I grabbed a newspaper off my dashboard and wrote down the time, location of the Exit sign in view, description of the truck with the ladder on the top, and the New Hampshire license plate. Then I grabbed my digital camera and, with one hand, got two shots of the subject truck, along with whatever the next Exit sign at that moment. He'll be surprised when his insurance company calls him about replacing my windshield.

HR (on way to my own insurance agency in a few minutes)
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Good for you. I hope his insurance then screws him over.

I think any move towards mandatory age criteria should involve objective testing of vision and driving skills, and not a hard age cutoff.
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I agree, but it all comes down to personable responsibility. I know I've been safe enough to drive a car since I've been, oh, 14, but the law sees me and they instantly apply the label: UNSAFE, and I'm stuck being stereotyped with all the crappy drivers who have no clue what they are doing, and the good people lose. It really sucks being on the good side because you are screwed over by the the man after the bad side did something, so the man puts everyone into the bad side category.

And who ever's job that is is gonna have a hard time because they might clean up their act just to get the license and keep it, but will be reckless when they are not being watched. The police really need to step up giving out tickets.
 
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Well what about the old pilots?
I hope to become an old pilot, but I sure don't wanna become a Hayden Scheaffer.
 
Drunks, old age, young whippersnappers -- all are significant (I'd especially have to go along with the drunks) but everyone still seems to be missing the BEST way to improve driving safety at all ages (drunks not included). And if any group of people should be able to figure it out, it should be you guys - pilots.

I've been surprised at the number of pilots who have volunteered the fact that they are better drivers as a result of their pilot training. Why? Because they were finally introduced to a concept that they should have been taught long ago - situational awareness.

When I first started driving my dad actually worked at teaching me to be aware of everything going on around me. That included the Walk sign up ahead that just changed to Don't Walk which means that the light will be changing to yellow in a little while (plan accordingly), the anxious pedestrian that looks like he might step out in front of that 3rd car ahead of me, the guy who just got in the delivery truck up ahead, the car trying to pull out of the driveway/cross-street that hasn't looked in my direction yet, etc., etc., etc. When we were alone in the car together (which he sometimes arranged) he would often ask me to make a running commentary out loud about everything I saw and whether or not it might become a factor in my driving.

He also pulled a couple of last minute "Hey, let's stop there" requests to teach me to just go around the block or go to another driveway and turn around rather than making a sudden stop and endangering my life/property. Yes, it endangers the life/property of others also but if I take proper precautions for my own sake, it will help protect others as well. (Being truly selfish - as in protecting your own life and property - can often be confused with being courteous. A strange concept but amazingly true.)

If every parent did this, the roads would be much safer. The problem is - most parents don't know enough to do this themselves so they certainly can't teach it to their kids. I also don't think most drivers ed instructors know enough to do this and, even if they do, they probably don't have time to do it. If they did, many parents would probably say, "You're making too many demands of my perfect little boy/girl [and they are actually having to think]." I soon found out that if I was verbalizing everything I saw when driving down anything other than a country road with only a couple cars on it, then I wasn't really paying enough attention.

To this day I often find it hard to hold a continuous, uninterrupted conversation while driving because, unlike most drivers, the driving distracts me too much.

By the way, if you're wondering, I've been driving since 1965 and have significantly surprised passengers three times by my ability to avoid a serious accident - one of which would probably have killed at least the driver (me). Each one of these was directly attributable to the fact that I was paying attention to things well beyond the car in front of me. In the one case it was a car on the cross-road immediately ahead that didn't look like he was going to stop. I knew it was a strange intersection (the wider road actually had the stop sign) so I was paying special attention. I hit the brakes hard and turned right onto the shoulder of that cross-road just about the time the other driver flew by at about 50 MPH. Another time I was chastised for getting off into the median of the freeway when the traffic made a sudden stop. The chastisement was because I could easily have stopped if I had tried. I told my passenger to look behind us and his comment was something like, "Holy [crap]! How did you know there would be so many cars following you like that?" Simple, I was paying attention to everything around me all the time. Had I tried to stop on the road instead of leading people off the road, I'm sure it would have ended as a multi-car pile-up.

Yes, I have had 3 accidents in all those years. The first when the brake line on my old 1964 GTO broke and that was the last year of single-cylinder brakes - when one line broke anywhere, you had NO brakes. As a result, I ran a stop sign and broadsided a car. Luckily I was only going about 25 at the time so nobody was hurt but the cars were both in bad shape! Another time a guy pulling a trailer with a pickup truck on it pulled out rather close in front of me but continued into the left lane which meant he really wasn't in my way - until I realised he was continuing his right turn directly into my path so he could pull into a driveway. That one I didn't see coming and, despite a quick manuever to avoid him, I managed to get a 2" scratch in my left rear fender as a result. (Repair cost $60.) The last one was a rear-ender when the 3rd or 4th car in front of me came to a sudden and full stop while getting off the freeway. Despite the cars that were stopped on the service road, he thought the Stop sign was for traffic exiting the freeway but didn't see it until he was almost past it - i.e., he wasn't paying attention. I had no problem stopping but I also had no place to go and could only sit and watch as the guy behind me kept coming - he was apparently paying more attention to the cell phone I saw in his hand.

By the way, my dad was a pilot (although he stopped flying before I was born) and maybe that had something to do with it but I don't think so. I could be wrong but I don't think they made such a big deal about situational awareness back in the 40's. To him, I think it was just 'common sense'.
 
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Better drivers because of their pilot training? Most of the pilots I've driven with absolutely suck at driving--including me :)
 
gprellwitz said:
Maybe you do it at 10-15 MPH, but I've seen bikes in rush hour traffic doing 60-70MPH with everybody tailgating, jumping between cars, getting into slots where they have literally 1-2' of clearance in front of and behind the bike, and generally doing things with no margin for error!
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Grant,

The bikers in Chicago are even exponentially more insane than the cagers! I almost made a biker pancake on the Bishop Ford the other night. A bunch of bikes passed me, and one particular pair was oriented so:

1
.2

Bike 2 was looking over his right shoulder back at me, and bike 1 moved over to the right lane without looking at all - Neither was looking at each other. They were going about 90 mph and I don't know how the rear wheel of bike 1 didn't touch the front wheel of bike 2 - There must have been less than 3 inches between 'em. If they had tangled up, they'd have done so less than 20 feet in front of me with only their momentum to keep them from going under the truck. :eek: I spose they'd have been dead either way.
 
2256Q said:
Thank you. I'm 67, have 20/20 vision and reflexes good enough to still fly a military fighter jet if the occasion presented itself, and good enough to fly a cabin-class twin, which I do.
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Then you ain't who I'm talkin' about. :no: The two accidents have both been 84 year olds. Then there was the time that two 90+ (estimated) year old women drove up the off ramp on I-90 right in my face. With a closure rate of over 100 mph, they're extremely lucky that both myself and the car in the other lane were able to stop while they made a Y-turn in the middle of the interstate and exited back off the ramp which they'd come up. :eek: :mad:

I'm sorry the gentleman had such bad luck with his car, but if we want to worry about getting a class of drivers off the road, let's work on the DRUNKS!
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Both! I definitely agree with you on the drunks. I have no tolerance for that, my best friend was damn near killed by a drunk (6 weeks in the hospital, 6 months in full-time rehab) and I have had to use excessive physical force (there was blood involved) to keep someone from driving drunk.
 
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